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More Tyrosinase clarification:

So then are each of these statements accurate?

1. The Sharp Albinos may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative.
2. The Kahl Albinos may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative.
3. The VPI Caramel Albinos may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative.
4. The (Fill in the blank) may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative.

If all of these are in fact accurate, then who cares if any of them are Tyrosinase Positive or T-Negative? What difference does it make? If the only difference is a more accurate scientific understanding of the chemical properties of what the root cause of the Albinism is, then it matters not a whit to Boa Breeders. Then all this talk of Tyrosinase Positive or Tyrosinase Negative has been a endless discussion of apples and oranges as we were never talking about the exact chemical cause but of the resulting appearance of what we are working with. If our previously believed definitions are wrong, then all this has been an endless pursuit of nothing.

I am trying to get to the root of this and what matters and what does not matter. I feel like we are getting someplace, but I don't like where that place is necessarily. If all this talk for years about Tyrosinase Positive this and Tyrosinase Positive that is a misnomer, I'm going to have a stroke. My head hurts trying to get a good grip on all this and I am afraid that if the statements listed above are all accurate, we have all spent a great deal of energy comprehending an at best, inaccurate idea or at worst, a non-existent fairy tale.

What I think I know is this. There are two kinds of Albinos;

1. The type that show virtually zero influence of melanin. (Two known lines: Sharp and Kahl)
2. All the other Albinos that so far are also simple recessive. (Numerous lines differing widely in expression)
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1. The Sharp Albinos may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative.
2. The Kahl Albinos may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative.

My guess is that they are both different strains of T negative amelanism but who knows yet?

3. The VPI Caramel Albinos may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative.
4. The (Fill in the blank) may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative

I would think that they are either T positive or more likely hypomelanistic...but you are right, whe it comes to the purposes for breeding boas and identifying them it makes more sense to refer to the VPI strain/Caramel/Blonde/Prodigy etc as T positives or something other than hypomelanistic because of the previous accepted description of "hypo" assigned to the CA incomplete dominant/dominant forms. Another idea someone threw out there (which I think is great) is to give each strain it's own "name" until breeding trials prove that they are/are not compatible....I mean the trade names don't necessarily have to reflect scientific accuracy unless the one who is the founder of the line wishes it.

We all know the difference between the VPI's, prodigy, Caramels, Blonde albinos...etc. Changes can be made as they are found to be the same as I think some will. But this is all YEARS in the making. I mean, we haven't yet figured out what all hypo corns are compatible and which aren't and they are much easier to get consistant results from. And it seems that each year new versions hatch out that may or may not be related....

I really am kind of sorry I even brought this up. This forum is the one that all others should be measured by in my opinion...excellent photos, open discussion of bloodlines, very little animosity/arguments and a "family" like feel to it, everyone congratulating everyone else and such...just a great place to visit. I certainly didn't mean to muddy things up by bringing up this stuff (although I guess from some of the comments, it's been discussed before?)

Anyway....what a year huh?

"really am kind of sorry I even brought this up. This forum is the one that all others should be measured by in my opinion...excellent photos, open discussion of bloodlines, very little animosity/arguments and a "family" like feel to it, everyone congratulating everyone else and such...just a great place to visit. I certainly didn't mean to muddy things up by bringing up this stuff (although I guess from some of the comments, it's been discussed before?)"

I disagree, I think actual discussions are the best, I love seeing all the great animals, but I would rather read inteligent debate and expression of ideas any day, even if the ideas are Jeff's

>So then are each of these statements accurate?
>
>1. The Sharp Albinos may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative.

Correct.

>2. The Kahl Albinos may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative.

Correct.

>3. The VPI Caramel Albinos may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative.

These would be classified as Tyrosinase positive.

4. The (Fill in the blank) may be Tyrosinase Positive or they may be T-Negative.

All boa constrictors that are lighter than normal but have some black (melanin) pigment are Tyrosinase positive.

Tyrosinase negative albinos are albino because they have a defective tyrosinase enzyme that cannot catalyse the first two steps in the metabolic pathway that leads to melanin. Or they could lack part or all of the gene and not make any tyrosinase at all.

Tyrosinase positive albinos have less melanin than normal because

1. They have a partly defective tyrosinase enzyme that can catalyse the first two steps in the matabolic pathway leading to melanin but produce less product in those steps than normal. It's a bottleneck in the production process.

2. They have a perfectly normal tyrosinase enzyme. A different enzyme catalysing one or more other steps in the melanin biochemical pathway is defective.

3. There is an abnormal gene involved in regulating the amount of tyrosinase produced or the rate at which it is broken down.

4. A gene involved in the maturation of the melanin pigment cell is defective causing the cell to be smaller than normal or an abnormal shape.

5. A defective gene causes the pigment cell to make abnormal pigment granules. Fewer than normal melanin pigment granules, smaller than normal pigment granules, abnormally shaped pigment granules, less dense pigment granules, etc.

6. There are one or more other explanations.

This is why tyrosinase-positive vs. tyrosinase-negative is too simplistic.

Paul Hollander

By the way, a tyrosinase positive albino may have less than the normal amount of melanin pigment, or it may not have any melanin pigment at all. Both the Kahl and Sharp albinos are put in the "no melanin" category. As the two genes are apparently not compatible, one albino strain may lack melanin because it produces defective tyrosinase. The other strain may lack melanin for a cause totally unrelated to tyrosinase. Testing is required to find out which is which. And testing might show that neither albino strain is tyrosinase negative.

Paul Hollander

Thank you for your reply Paul.

So if I have this correct.

1. The no-melanin type Albinos are up in the air to if they are T-Pos or T-Neg.

2. However, the other bloodlines that show a visible reduction in black pigmentation, if caused by a single gene*, these have been simple recessive so far, those could all be technically classified as Tyrosinase Positive Albinos. This regardless of pink pupils or not correct? Regardless of the amount of apparent black in the rings around the tail blotches correct? This varies greatly even within a single bloodline and may change with age. All this because Albinism is expressed in a wide range of ways correct?

Do I have that correct?

True black is not something that can necessarily be picked up with my eye. Is that a true statement? I am thinking that black production or melanin production my be interrupted on some level but may or may not be discernable with the human eye. Is that correct?

* The reason I say "if caused by a single gene" is many Boas have been produced that exhibit less melanin than some other Boas simply through selective breeding or in the case of particular bloodlines such as Pastel bloodline. These Boas showing less black are the result of polygenic traits which are not inherited in same way as dominant or simple recessive traits.

Let me say that we Boa hacks like myself really appreciate your stopping by and helping us out with the more technical aspects of genetics when these questions pop up. Without the assistance of someone like you we are simply arguing blindly with little knowledge of the facts. Thanks again!

Jeff
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>1. The no-melanin type Albinos are up in the air to if they are T-Pos or T-Neg.
>
>2. However, the other bloodlines that show a visible reduction in black pigmentation, if caused by a single gene*, these have been simple recessive so far, those could all be technically classified as Tyrosinase Positive Albinos. This regardless of pink pupils or not correct? Regardless of the amount of apparent black in the rings around the tail blotches correct? This varies greatly even within a single bloodline and may change with age. All this because Albinism is expressed in a wide range of ways correct?
>
>Do I have that correct?

Point 1 is correct, and point 2 is mostly correct. I see no reason why salmon (AKA hypo) could not be classified as a tyrosinase positive albino. It is certainly T-positive. Depending on how far you want to stretch the definition of "albino", even pastels could be included.

Variation in the amount of black within a bloodline is called "variable expressivity". It can be caused by a variety of other genes and by environmental factors. For example, a mild copper deficiency can affect the amount of black pigment produced.

>True black is not something that can necessarily be picked up with my eye. Is that a true statement? I am thinking that black production or melanin production my be interrupted on some level but may or may not be discernable with the human eye. Is that correct?

I'm not sure what you mean by "true black". This is starting to sound like the question of whether a falling tree makes a sound if nobody is there to hear it.

As the easterners say, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Which, among other things, means that there are many steps in the journey, and a stumble can happen at any step in the journey. Some stumbles are worse than others, of course.

For what it's worth, there are mutant genes that sometimes show their effect to the eye and sometimes do not. Then the only way to identify an individual with the gene is by breeding test or sophisticated physical or biochemical tests. This sort of thing is known for both dominant and recessive mutants. See "penetrance" in Wikipedia.

Paul Hollander

" For what it's worth, there are mutant genes that sometimes show their effect to the eye and sometimes do not. Then the only way to identify an individual with the gene is by breeding test or sophisticated physical or biochemical tests. This sort of thing is known for both dominant and recessive mutants. "

This animal has pink eyes with black pupils and proved to be simple recessive. T-Pos or Type 2 Hypo ? Caramel Hypo maybe.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farms Inc.

That's a nice looking pit viper in the picture. What species is it?

Paul Hollander

It's Bothrops asper, Fer-de-Lance or Terceopelo . Ernie Eison

"This is why tyrosinase-positive vs. tyrosinase-negative is too simplistic. "

The simplistic version is T-Pos. Albino has more sales appeal then Type 2 Hypo.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farms Inc.

[

You hit the nail on the head.....its all about marketing....in this industry (and Im a new one here, however see it with other industries), its all about something that will make it sound more appealing to the buyer....as we all know most buyers for boa morphs are other breeders....people dont spend that kind of money on a snake if they arent going to breed it....at least the majority.....also we see how prices on these morphs fluctuate so rapidly...its like a stock that you own....and when there is a scandal in the company, the stock goes down, and everyone who had bought in for this much money...now have just lost equity.....the bummer in all this, is that I hope that this doesnt lessen the value of the other so called T-Pos boas.....you can see the kind of reaction that this first post got.....it was very aggresive in the way that you protect something of value, with everyone chiming in who has a vested interested in whatever stock they have bought into.....ultimatley....I still enjoy the snakes that I keep and work with....and if I make any money with them thats great...if not, I have a day job and this is something that brings joy to my life.....and just selectively breeding to get a certain look is payback enough for me.....

Hope I didnt offend anyone with this post....that was not the intention....

Paul

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Paul Harb

Interesting, and scarey, if your in this for the money.....your buyers are your competion.....Im not sure what other product is like that.....just something to think about....
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Paul Harb

We just name it as a lineage-let's say for example:
VPI Caramel albinos. All of the snakes we have descended from an original pair of wc normal Colombians, which produced our founding animals in 1997. We have spent from 1997-2007 raising and breeding all combinations, proving this "VPI caramel albino" as a simple recessive. We have bred 1) homozygous x homozygous 2) het to het 3) homozygous to het 4) heterozygous to normal offspring. From those pairings including 50% and 66% possible hets that were proven to be 100% hets through breeding we have produced VPI caramel albino boas. These snakes are called "albino" because the eyes shine though red. They are called "caramel" because of their color, which ranges from pink to saffron yellow. A second what appears to be dominant mutation appears within the same lineage. We have named this VPI "pink panther." This appears to be independent from the caramel albino and you may get both appearances separately or together. Several pattern variations have appeared through breedings 1) connected chain pattern 2) widows peaks pattern 3) "reverse stripe or jaguar" appearing pattern. Future breedings will illustrate more about these variations. We have two wild caught animals, a male acquired in 2001 that has been bred to two females of the VPI caramel lineage and produced caramel albino babies. A wild caught female acquired in 2003 as a baby, has been raised and will also hopefully be compatible with the lineage.

VPI CARAMEL ALBINO BOA/PINK PANTHER BORN 2007

of course the work as well.....people spend many years as Tracy has pointed out, working with these mutations to prove them out...Im definately not taking away from that.....

Paul

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Paul Harb

I would classify that as T positive for sure. Looks like red eyes and has that Albino look to it in the tail.

Thks....he is a VPI obviously.....and gorgeous....I really love this line that Tracy is working with.....and will be purchasing a Pink Panther female for him very soon.....right Tracy..

Paul

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Paul Harb

just to clarify....that last pic was a Lipstick Sunglow....

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Paul Harb

Just look at the tail its like it should have been an Albino, but some how a little pigment snuck in there. No disrespect to Zienina and Gabors line but they just dont seem to have that look. Hypomelanistic yes T Positive Albino not in my book. Obviously my opinion has no scientific basis what so ever and is just in my mind what denotes a T positive. My list thus far would be Padigram, VPI Caramel, Nic T Positive and Argentine, any others are questionable as T Positives in my opinion.

To me even the Nicaraguan is too different. Carmel is a good name for it, but Albino I'm not sure about. When the VPI and Paradigms are first born they look like Albinos. Just an appearance opinion.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/

I agree 110%.
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Greg Holland
GM HERPS
www.imageevent.com/gmherps
gmherps@sbcglobal.net

Look at the tails of the Nic T positives on the Burkes site. They look very Albino to me. I think they just look a little darker because they are Nics.

- http://www.vpi.com/snakes/360
It doesnt have red eyes, lavender borders, red tail, pink sides... Would you call this snake a T albino??? ... BUT its an T albino!!!
My point is that you cant judge and compare one single animal that showed Tracy to all the others. If you want to compare the lines look at more babys. I have seen MANY baby boas from the VPI T line and some of them were very dark and all of them had black eyes...
If you want to compare the animals you have to look at the whole line - babys, subadults and adults. I know that the variety of the babys and the subadults is huge and it goes with all the T lines exept the Nics and Argentine.
Im not offended at all because i know what i got.

Gabor

Take care

Gabor
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Gabor Kaminski

of your best Blonde Albino tails and where they look Albino like the T positives above do.

I dont understand. Do they have to look 100% like the VPI boas to be T . Our line is just developing and im sure when they will be outcrossed with some nice boas we will and up with very similar look. Our hets are terrible - dark and many black spots. The VPI snake is already outcrossed with nice boas so this year they made fantastic babys.
Have you seen the 06 T babys at VPIs? They look almoust identical like our blonds...

Take care

Gabor
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Gabor Kaminski

and keep in mind this is only my opinion on what I consider a T Positive. I just feel that they dont have the T positive look.

the Boa Women Caramel. Do they look like T albinos in your opinion?
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Gabor Kaminski

if it has functional tyrosinase, then it is T-positive. In other words, everything that is not T-negative is T-positive. A boawoman caramel has some melanin pigment, so it has to have functional tyrosinase, making it T-positive. And if it is lighter than normal, it is an albino. The boawoman caramel is definitely lighter than normal. So it seems to me that a boawoman caramel qualifies as a T-positive albino.

Also, if (as seems likely) a paradigm boa has a boawoman caramel mutant gene paired with a Sharp albino mutant gene, and if you describe a paradigm boa as a T-positive albino, then it is hard to avoid the logical conclusion that a snake with two boawoman caramel mutant genes is also a T-positive albino.

Paul Hollander

I agree Paul. I think that the Boawoman caramel is a T albino. It works with Sharp ( T- albino in my opinion ). Anyway, my point was that the babys of the Boawomen caramel dont look like the VPI kidos - they have dark pigmentation and they dont have red eyes BUT they are still kinda albinos. Accually if we want to rip this apart them we could say based on genetic that from all the T lines out there the only proven T albino is the Boawomen caramel because it works with T- albino (Sharp).
... and the PARADOX - that is the best example for a T albino. Its 100% melanin in 100% albino.
So, all we need to do now is breed the blond to all kind of albino boas and we will get the results without genetic tests.
By the way, i think that none of the test will give us answears when its about T albinos. We dont need to do test to check that the Tyrosinaze enzym is working well but its level is just low. We can see that with eyes so i see no point making them.

Take care

Gabor
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Gabor Kaminski

Man, you really come off as anti the Blonde albino line. Here, look at this link and tell me the above linked VPI T albino is how each and every one they produce looks. When VPI first showed the Colombian T albinos I thought they weren't very attractive, too dark around the tail for my personal taste, but with refinement they are becoming really nice.

http://www.vpi.com/galleries/images/133
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Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

but I'm really not against them. I think they are beautiful. They just dont have enough of an albino look for me. I've had some pale hypos born that look more T positive than them. Maybe I'm just grumpy I dont have any baby boas to look at yet lol. Heres a pic of my T positive albinos. Red eyes and all lol.

lol, gotcha, waiting on neos definetely can make anyone grumpy.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

To me the work that Tracy mentions is what makes a morph. Take out all the scientific testing for a moment, the paradigm and vpi caramel are the only proven lines that we know of right now. Whether or not they are T or T- will not be known until the test are done so we as a community should go by the proven lines as to what is T poss, red eyes, and inky purple borders around the tail blotches are two major attributes of the only 2 proven lines so until the test are done its those types of atributes that should catergorize t 's IMO
Vinny

No offense to anyone with unproven animals just my opinion
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1.0 Poss super PC Salmon 05 (Rich Ihle)
0.1 Dubay Pastel 04 (Clay English)
1.0 Sharp Albino 05 (Mike Wilbanks)
0.1 Normal BCI 04 (????)

Tracy, When you say the Pink Panther....is that also a T positive form?? As we currently know T pos....

Or does the Pink Panther exhibit some other characteristics...that set it appart such as being a het form?

Thanks Andy
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The pink panther is just another bonus, that if combined with the caramel albino really makes them ultra pink. It was not "added" it just was already in the lineage. It does not mean the snake is a het caramel albino, but it could be. You can have a het or caramel albino that is or is not also a pink panther.

Michael Burton

Pretty Well Said IMO
If people arent offended by something, their afraid of something so either way or both its pretty amuseing from the cheap seats.
What I never get a grasp on is why people dont retain the simple logic behind this stuff ?
What is so hard to understand about SUCKER? or was PT Barnum
a fool ?

TNK
Thats my nondirective opinion and Im sticking to it.

>>You hit the nail on the head.....its all about marketing....in this industry (and Im a new one here, however see it with other industries), its all about something that will make it sound more appealing to the buyer....as we all know most buyers for boa morphs are other breeders....people dont spend that kind of money on a snake if they arent going to breed it....at least the majority.....also we see how prices on these morphs fluctuate so rapidly...its like a stock that you own....and when there is a scandal in the company, the stock goes down, and everyone who had bought in for this much money...now have just lost equity.....the bummer in all this, is that I hope that this doesnt lessen the value of the other so called T-Pos boas.....you can see the kind of reaction that this first post got.....it was very aggresive in the way that you protect something of value, with everyone chiming in who has a vested interested in whatever stock they have bought into.....ultimatley....I still enjoy the snakes that I keep and work with....and if I make any money with them thats great...if not, I have a day job and this is something that brings joy to my life.....and just selectively breeding to get a certain look is payback enough for me.....
>>
>>Hope I didnt offend anyone with this post....that was not the intention....
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>
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>>Paul Harb

Just to muddy things up even more... what is with the paradox albinos and sunglows? You know, the ones that look like a regular albino... until you get to the big patch of BLACK scales.
What is going on with those freaks?

Kathy

so Kathy, this debate wasnt confuseing enough for ya,
I'm still learning you know!! LOL
Vinny
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1.0 Poss super PC Salmon 05 (Rich Ihle)
0.1 Dubay Pastel 04 (Clay English)
1.0 Sharp Albino 05 (Mike Wilbanks)
0.1 Normal BCI 04 (????)

I brought that up because if an animal is truly tyrosinase negative then how can it possibly have black scales.

Kathy

It can all be very confusing can't it! LOL

I think it is important to know so we know what we are dealing with. It will also allow for better predictions of the best combinations for designer morphs.

It is better however not to use the prefix on the morphs until we know if it is valid. Wrong until proven right.

I say that between the Kahl and Sharp one is likely positive the other negative, just a guess though. Something has to explain them not being compatible.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/

Not to get off topic here but a similar thing with Sharp and Kahl can be in balls are the lav albino and norm albino compatible???
I dont know but if there not it can be for the same reason as Kahl and Sharp...
Vinny
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1.0 Poss super PC Salmon 05 (Rich Ihle)
0.1 Dubay Pastel 04 (Clay English)
1.0 Sharp Albino 05 (Mike Wilbanks)
0.1 Normal BCI 04 (????)

>>
>>
>>I say that between the Kahl and Sharp one is likely positive the other negative, just a guess though. Something has to explain them not being compatible.
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>>http://www.GilbertBoas.com/

If I read Paul Hollanders post correctly, A hypo would be considered T , yet it combines with both strains. Would that make T and T- albinos compatible? (had to do it)
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

shoulda said T positive.
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

What paul is saying is correct, every Boa that shows ANY melanin is Tyrosinase positive. It does not mean however that that animal is a T-plus Albino.

Albino as we have come to use to term denotes red pupils. The rest of the eye's color is irrelevant.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/

>>What paul is saying is correct, every Boa that shows ANY melanin is Tyrosinase positive. It does not mean however that that animal is a T-plus Albino.
>>
>>Albino as we have come to use to term denotes red pupils. The rest of the eye's color is irrelevant.
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>>http://www.GilbertBoas.com/

I guess I was just talking to myself out loud. LOL Wondering if you will. What I was getting at.........

If you can combine a Salmon which has functioning Tyrosinase, )T positive), and a Kahl albino which does not, (T negative), it indicates the mutations are not at the same locus. They combine just fine. Right?

Based on that, is it safe to say that the T positive albinos, and T negative albinos may very well be compatible mutations? I mean, if the mutations occupy a different location on the chromosome, seems likely they could be combined, right?

Just curious, as I still have much to learn about this stuff.
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

So you're just talking about a Designer morph that shows both the say VPI and Kahl? Like a Snow shows Anery and Albino? Yeah that makes sense, no reason it wouldn't work. Might not look special, still I want to make a VPI Sharp in one.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/

>> Yeah that makes sense, no reason it wouldn't work. Might not look special.
>>-----
>>http://www.GilbertBoas.com/

And maybe it will. When Sunglows were first coming out, I didn't picture an Amel and a Hypo combining well, but they turned out to be sweet looking critters. Now we have those Paradigms..........Just makes me wonder.
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

>Based on that, is it safe to say that the T positive albinos, and T negative albinos may very well be compatible mutations? I mean, if the mutations occupy a different location on the chromosome, seems likely they could be combined, right?

Sorry, no cigar. "Compatible" is herper slang for alleles. Alleles are different versions of the same gene. In other words, alleles have the same location on a chromosome. Since genes are paired, you can have one copy of one allele paired with one copy of a different allele. But they would not be true breeding like snows, for example. Sunglows are not true breeding yet, but they can be if the sunglow has a pair of salmon mutant genes in addition to the pair of albino mutant genes. Salmon and Kahl albino are not alleles (not compatible) because they have different locations in the chromosomes.

The best explanation so far for paradigm boas is that they have one copy of the boawoman caramel mutant gene paired with one copy of the Sharp albino mutant gene. If this is correct, the two mutants are alleles (compatible).

Paul Hollander

You're a God among Men Paul.

Thanks for the explanation. (even if it did create more questions LOL)
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices