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T blonde albinos, food for thought ,

zenzinia Jun 02, 2007 02:39 PM

It’s all about semantic in the herp community ! Some examples:
Melanine is commonly used to describe a black pigment, that is not correct, what about phaenomelanine ? Some collorfull albinos are called amelanistic, what is the correct definition of an amelanistique ? Without eumelanine only ?
What is an hypomelanistic ? Wich % in reduction of black melanin is acceptable to call a boa a hypo ?
Hypo just means less than the “normal” as hyper means more, so we can say that :
- Pastels are hypo’s
-Hogg islands are hypos.
-Salmons are hypos
-Carmels are hypos
-VPI caramel are hypos
- Blonde albinos are hypos
...........
They all have more or less reduction of black melanine but they all are really different both in phenotype and genetic. Some are polygenic and not very predictable, some are dominant and some are simple recessive.

Albinos ? What is the definition of albinism?
How many form of albinisme for humans ? Mouses, cats, fish ?
How many T negative formes?
How many T positive forms ?
With a little reseach you will get the answers.

The different forms of albinism have now been understood and classified by the genes and the progress of DNA sequences and not only with chimical tests. We are not talking about 1 gene but about 50 in some cases. So with reptiles, we can only learn from studies done on other species . As far as I know this has not been done for boas.

With boas we have to draw upon one’s own ressources to understand what is going on. We have 3 ressources, their phenotype, the breeding, and the description of the different forms of albinism studied in other species, human, mouses, cats, .... There is T positive cat, you all have seen it and don’t know it is one, wich one ?

Sharp, T positive or not ?
Carmel hypo, T positive or not ?
Since they are compatible they have to share the genetic answer that could also explain why Kahl and Sharp stain are not compatible !? More breeding with other strain will give us answers.

As said before, there are different form of T positive albinisme, with different phenotypes, more or less dark pigment, in some it allow the devellopement of dark pigments with age, in some cases that will only be located on specific places.

So, how a T positive boa should look like ?

First of all, the phenotype should be inheritable and only expressed in it’s homozygote form, recessive genes. So, pastels, salmon, ... are not T positive.

About the color of the eyes, 2 things ; first the color of the iris, second the color of the retina and not the pupil (as often said) wich is trabslucide and let by dilatation more or less light go to the retina;
Does he need to have red iris ? Retina ? Or both ?
Does the T positive human have red eyes ? NO ! Some T postive mouses even have black eyes !
So a T positive boa doesn’t not need to have red eyes . Surprise !

Something special about T positive because of tyrosine problems, it allow more or less devellopement of dark pigment and some part can be without dark pigments while others will have some.
Some examples with the “blonde albinos” :

-What is the color of the tongue of a boa ? Black, right ?
All the blonde albinos have a pink translucide tongue, there is no melanine. They share that with the Kahl, Sharp and VPI stain. I alleady have posted pics on the forum.

-Do boas get darker with age ? Yes, all of them because they devellope different melanines with age and we would be happy to avoid that, isn’t it ?.
The “blond albinos are not darkening like” normal” boas, because they don’t devellope dark melanine with age, like the othe T positive stain.

- Where do we find the most concentration of black on a boa ? Around the tail and the most on the side . In the blond albinos, even adults don’t have black on the sides around the blotches.

Here is one of my pair, the darker and less collorfull one. Breeding pic at 4 years, not the pair that produce my previous litter. Grey lavender, no black, just like they were as babies exept for the yellow, blonde, caramel color that they devellope with age, like the other stain..

Here is a new born, 2 days old, no black, grey and lavender on the tail, it will not have more when adult and it will not get darker.

Why did we called our strain “blonde albinos”?
How is also called the positive albinive for humans ? The yellow albinisme.
With age, our strain devellope phaenomelanine, they get more yellow, caramel, blonde, carmel, .. Whatever the word used, they also share that caracteristic with the other strain.

In conclusion, if you did not felt asleep, these are some of the reasons that lead us to say that the “blonde albinos” are T positive. Not to mention, that like for the VPI, they produce abberancies, widow pics, a special pattern, and it also appear that, I produce in my litter some clean and collorfull one that remind me the so called “pink panther “.
.
Our strain has not been refined yet . I just did a F2 homozygote breeding. We are just scratching the potential of the T positive blonde albinos,, with red pastels, they will have no black, will keep their colors and will not devellope dark pigment with age ! They will clean up blood lines without adding colors like the salmons do.......

Remember how you see them, on pics, through a more less adjusted sreen, having them in hands makes the difference !

PS; Please excuse, my bad English.

Replies (9)

vcaruso15 Jun 02, 2007 02:59 PM

Dont take anyones comments the wrong way, if you want to call them Blonde Albinos good for you. I just personally dont see that T Positive look I look for. To be Albino a boa must be Hypomelanistic, but to be Hypomelanistic does not mean it has to be Albino. Again there is no scientific basis to my opinions just common sense.

Sun_King Jun 02, 2007 03:56 PM

Very interesting reading. However I must say I was more mezmerized by those INCREDIBLE boas. I would love to cross that into all the morphs I have. HAHAHAHA

Joe

wstreps Jun 02, 2007 05:55 PM

" Not to mention, that like for the VPI, they produce abberancies, widow pics, a special pattern, and it also appear that, I produce in my litter some clean and collorfull one that remind me the so called “pink panther “. "

You can take a couple boas from a pet shop and produce all of those things with a little selective breeding. It has nothing to do with T's and negs or pos's and Pink Panthers or recreational genetics 101. It's how boas naturally are made. Variable. There's nothing special about producing any of those traits. A nice normal Columbian boa should be pink.

Ernie Eison

Westwood Acres Reptile farms Inc.

Image

zenzinia Jun 02, 2007 06:37 PM

" Not to mention, that like for the VPI, they produce abberancies, widow pics, a special pattern, and it also appear that, I produce in my litter some clean and collorfull one that remind me the so called “pink panther “. "

You can take a couple boas from a pet shop and produce all of those things with a little selective breeding. It has nothing to do with T's and negs or pos's and Pink Panthers or recreational genetics 101. It's how boas naturally are made. Variable. There's nothing special about producing any of those traits. A nice normal Columbian boa should be pink.

Ernie Eison

Westwood Acres Reptile farms Inc
---------------------------------------------------
I forgot to mention That 100 % of the T positive blonde albinos, have striped with some chain linked tails and abberancies, no selective breeding in that and none of the random unpredictable polygenic trait, you are refering to. Check all the pics I have posted you will see it !
Nice pastel you have, when it will be 4 years old, post a pic, I would love to see how he has turned out.

TnK Jun 02, 2007 06:52 PM

LOL!! Well said,

rotf.....

TnK
>>
** recreational genetics 101**. It's how boas naturally are made. Variable. There's nothing special about producing any of those traits. A nice normal Columbian boa should be pink.
>>
>>
>>Ernie Eison
>>
>>Westwood Acres Reptile farms Inc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Paul Hollander Jun 02, 2007 06:36 PM

>So, how a T positive boa should look like ?

>First of all, the phenotype should be inheritable and only expressed in it’s homozygote form, recessive genes. So, pastels, salmon, ... are not T positive.

Why recessive genes only? Are you claiming that salmon boas do not have functional tyrosinase? Snakes with either nonfunctional or missing tyrosinase are the only ones that are not tyrosinase positive, as far as I know.

I don't know whether the argument is for calling those blonde albino boas hypos or tyrosinase positive albinos. In my opinion, they could go in both categories nicely. YMMV. But then they'd be lost in the crowd. Think marketing! Think unique! Think rarity value! I'd strip the "albino" off the name and just call them blonde boas as a first step.

Paul Hollander

zenzinia Jun 02, 2007 07:13 PM

>So, how a T positive boa should look like ?

>First of all, the phenotype should be inheritable and only expressed in it’s homozygote form, recessive genes. So, pastels, salmon, ... are not T positive.

Why recessive genes only? Are you claiming that salmon boas do not have functional tyrosinase? Snakes with either nonfunctional or missing tyrosinase are the only ones that are not tyrosinase positive, as far as I know.

I don't know whether the argument is for calling those blonde albino boas hypos or tyrosinase positive albinos. In my opinion, they could go in both categories nicely. YMMV. But then they'd be lost in the crowd. Think marketing! Think unique! Think rarity value! I'd strip the "albino" off the name and just call them blonde boas as a first step.

Paul Hollander

__________________________________________________
I have said in a previous post that all the non T negative boas were by definition T positive, the commun pet shop one. and said than that definition was not the best ! You agred in a precedent post that we have to used real studies done on other species, to figure out.
So, the answer is simple as said before, all the different forms of T albinism identified in other species (human, mouses, ....) are all recessive. , so if now you want to say that some forms of T positive albinos are dominant, it's up to you.
Give me a genetic mutation called hypo and studied in other species and I will look at it.

Ophidia_Junkie Jun 03, 2007 06:42 AM

>> So, the answer is simple as said before, all the different forms of T albinism identified in other species (human, mouses, ....) are all recessive. , {B}so if now you want to say that some forms of T positive albinos are dominant, it's up to you.{/B}
>> Give me a genetic mutation called hypo and studied in other species and I will look at it.
_______________________________________________________________

I missed where Paul said that Salmons are Albino. He stated they are T positive. This is in fact true. They have functioning tyrosinase. And the Salmon trait is a Dominant one, not recessive.

Sounds like his statement is pretty solid to me. ???

Than again, I am still pretty new to this whole genetics thing. Lots to learn.
-----
Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

Paul Hollander Jun 04, 2007 01:14 PM

Salmons are lighter than normal boas. The term "albino" is so loosely applied in boa constrictors that anything lighter than normal can be called an albino.

There is a dominant mutant gene in cats. It has been named dominant white and produces a cat with white fur and colored eyes rather than pink eyes.

Gray and cremello are dominant mutants in horses. Both mutant genes produce very light colored horses.

Paul Hollander

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