Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Pic taken this morning.

Female copulated 3 times with the male - first copulation on 3/20
She had her prelay shed on 4/21 and layed 5 eggs on 5/3 - about a month ago. I did not put her in with a male again.

Feeding day (last tuesday) she refused her meal.
I'm going to try fuzzies today - but she looks gravid to me, even though I did put her in with a male after her first clutch.

Thoughts from those with more experience?

This is the first year she was bred, and it seems unusual that she would double clutch w/o a mating post lay her first year breeding - but I gather it isn't unheard of.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

I'd throw the male in........
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I'm not planning to double clutch - male is a WC so all young will be normal phenotype banded cal kings - not exactly cake to get rid of.

But if she is double clutching on her own I'll hatch them.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Consider that many feel infertile eggs are harder for a snake to pass than fertile ones. I think it would be better for the snake to have the male nail her again, but that is just an opinion.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

>>Consider that many feel infertile eggs are harder for a snake to pass than fertile ones. I think it would be better for the snake to have the male nail her again, but that is just an opinion.
>>Tom Stevens
I agree with you Tom, Last year my large Cal King laid 14 fertial eggs, then double cluched on her own with another 14-15 infertial eggs and slugs over a 2-3 day period, became egg bound on the last couple of eggs, which I was able to asperate, then she passed them about a week later. She had a hard time passing the infertile eggs. I plan on double cluching her this year, if she's going to go through all the trouble of laying another cluch, they might as well be fertial.

These were the good eggs.

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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

This year I watched a Bull snake try to pass an infertile egg. Man, it was coming halfway out and going back in over n over again! The snake was going nuts. A week later she laid half a dozen good eggs and they seemed to be coming out of her at what seems to be a proper pace. I don't know why? But I guess the firmness of a good egg gives them something to push.....the solid eggs give them something to hold onto while pushing instead of a mushy water balloon of an egg ya know?
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Makes sense to me.
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

In my experience if the female is going to double clutch she's going to do it with or without having bred again. Breeding only effects the percentage of fertile eggs. For such a young female to double indicates good conditioning to me . Congrats!

It sounds to me like she is going to lay again either way.. So, i would pair her up with the male...

~ Mike Russo

a well fed healthy king will double imho with or w/o a male its a sign of real success imho remember FR... listen to your snakes ... congrats i'll bet she lays a good second for you fertile to please let us know,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Wow not a good informative response in the bunch. Um... Did you feed her right after she laid the first clutch?? (That should have been the first thing asked here.) If so this has a great deal to do with doubling. If she has good condition going in and then you feed her right after she lays she will likely at least ovulate again. For a first year animal I would have not fed until after her shed and then only a small meal like a fuzzy to prevent the second clutch. It is too much stress on her body to double so young. Not impossible or anything, just stressful.

Think of it this way. The only goal for that snake is to reproduce more of its kind. If it is a good year, with lots of food, then it is better to reproduce more if you can. You feeding the snake right after she lays (if you did) means it is a good year for food. She will produce more eggs at that point even if it weakens her so much that she can't reproduce next year. Why?? Because this year there is food, who knows about next year. Feast or famine. I am not suggesting any thought goes into this on the snakes part, it is just what they do. If you want to test it, feed the crap out of her after this clutch, if it comes, and she will triple clutch!!

A snake that young is going to be a little shy on calcium from growing still and shelling the eggs. A second clutch is going to pull even more. At the very least, at this point you should supplement her diet with more calcium. Don't over do it but add some in. After this clutch (if it comes) wait until she sheds and then offer a fuzzy, wait at least ten days and give another fuzzy. That should be about 20 plus days and then you can go to a mouse and then back to regular feeding without a third clutch.

I personally try to wait until the second or third breeding season before I push multiple clutches, if I do at all. You can easily do it at any time and if you pay attention to your snake you can even see them carrying ova at odd times from your feeding regimen. The goal should be to lower stress levels first and get eggs second. It is only my opinion that you should wait until later to multi clutch, others may disagree.

Lastly I am in no way saying you have done anything wrong, in fact you have been trying to do things that you are told right out of the books. They tell you to be feeding the snake as soon as the eggs are pulled. Just remember that most of our books have been written by commercial breeders, and their goal is to get as many eggs as possible. If that is your goal, great, good job. If it is to give housing with the least stress possible then those are not the books to follow to the tee. Some of the info is golden but other info is a little a off. Just a little food for thought. If I am totally off I apologize.

Oh yeah, at this point through in a male cuz the eggs are coming either way, might as well be fertilized.

Jason

Thanks for the information on feeding, for single cluch. They just seem so hungry after laying their eggs!

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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

They are because if it is a good year they want to do it again. In the wild good years are far and few between. In captivity it is any year we choose. I am just suggesting that you choose it to be the second or third breeding season. I learned this the hard way with a small female I didn't want to breed the first time giving me 2 and a half clutches as I almost fed and in turn bred her to death because all the books told me to. Then a nice older fellow told me " You are the one making her make all those eggs you *&^%ing idiot. Stop feeding her for a minute" and then I stopped and thought about it for a second.

Jason

Posted by: Snakesunlimited1 at Mon Jun 4 22:17:10 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Wow not a good informative response in the bunch. Um... Did you feed her right after she laid the first clutch?? (That should have been the first thing asked here.) If so this has a great deal to do with doubling. If she has good condition going in and then you feed her right after she lays she will likely at least ovulate again. For a first year animal I would have not fed until after her shed and then only a small meal like a fuzzy to prevent the second clutch. It is too much stress on her body to double so young. Not impossible or anything, just stressful.

Wow, thanks for saving the day with your informative post. So YOU would not have done this n that........ well the rest of apparently would have. Too stressful? Says who? I double clutch everything and matter of factly have a few snakes looking like their third clutches may be coming this season. They're all in tip top shape. Posts like this crack me up....... I hear about this "don't double clutch you snakes" nonsense year after year when time and time again people will post they got a second clutch of eggs, infertile or fertile regardless of what they did to try and make it happen or prevent it. No, they do not always double either, but in most cases I hear about from other breeders if the snake is healthy enough to produce one clutch they usually can and will produce a second. Feeding a snake that just laid a clutch of eggs a fuzzy is pretty harsh, starve the snake.....great advice. Talk about a misinformative response....... If you're going to give your opinion many would love to hear it. But don't start by saying the rest of the replies are misinformative Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

But don't start by saying the rest of the replies are misinformative Tom Stevens

LOL I didn't. I said there was no good info in 4 consecutive post. You all said the same thing, and it was half the info. I also said some would disagree, like you. Snakes don't have good years every year in the wild but they can in captivity. Double clutching a young snake is not a good idea. I did say that in consecutive years after the first one or two of breeding I do multi clutch. You read that Tom ?? Multi clutch, not double, because the snakes can have multiple clutches in a given year no problem. I would just suggest not in their first year.

Now if you don't think feeding snakes as they lay affects wether they multi clutch than you are not learning as you go. If you have a young snake that you don't want to multi clutch then feeding it is not the right approach. So you would rather I sit here and say the same thing you did instead of informing a poster why their snake is producing a second clutch they didn't want?? Should I instead say breed her!! Come on man. Also feeding a snake a fuzzy or two over a 20 day period is not starving it. I would also suggest getting it off the high end temps that you prefer or give it a large enough cage that it can get off the heat (like you do but most don't). What that will accomplish is getting the snake to switch gears and not put its energy into a second clutch. If you feed the hell out of your snakes they can continue to put energy into eggs, but... a young female needs to put energy into growing.

Are you going to really argue that last line Tom???

Jason

If you look back a few pages in this forum you will find a post I did about a Cal King. Before we go back n forth all night I can at least bring this up since I already posted it and it is relevant.
I had an old Cal King given to me. 10 year old virgin. Close to 4 foot. Skinny, but not emaciated. Regurged every other meal, did not gain much weight. To see what would happen, I put a male in with her. They bred like crazy. She continued her sub par existence and I had no idea she was even gravid. I didn't even have a nest box in with her. She laid a perfect clutch, 8 or 10 eggs? I can't recall but what is important is this.

I thought like you probably do. That food was a mandatory factor in getting a snake to produce eggs. Matter of fact I like to say "caloric intake equals egg production" or something like that. Since I have written about this on my site, meaning how I do things I don't really say it much these days.
Someone who I respect very much corrected me on my feed feed feed theory as it of course has flaws........and to test what he told me I bred this skinny puking snake. I never would have believed it if I didn't see it here in my own collection. If I would have offered this female a single fuzzy after laying she'd be dead by now. We should look at each snake as an individual and decide what may be best for it day by day during breeding season. I was serious when my quick reply said throw the male in. At this point I say that is not bad advice. If it were here I'd feed the hell out of it too Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom, Congrats!

Now,

I never said that food is a must either, but it will affect the animal in such a way as to promote multiple clutches. That doesn't mean you will get them, but it does promote or encourage it to happen. What you offer is an extreme and I am going on the common 18 month old female being bred for the first time not a 4 foot aged female that has never been bred. In your case the female needed food, in the case of the common 18 month old snake that is bred for the first time, it won't "need" food. It will like food, but for the long term sake of the animal I am suggesting not feeding it until it sheds, which is the way it would be in nature, and then only a small food item. That would discourage egg production, though again not stop it. Then you can grow it up a bit before next seasons multi clutching.

Something else to consider is that most people cannot get their animals to eat what you say yours eat because their husbandry is different. So why would you suggest they breed like you without at least giving a run down of all your caging setups?? As you know you can't just pump food into an animal and expect it to thrive like yours do. They need the support. If you want to give out extremes, I have a buddy in Florida that gets his pits to triple clutch regularly and he had one drop a forth last year. He also keeps them like they are monitors and that is what he is good at. So yes it can be done for sure,... with the support. My guess is that if somebody is asking "why" it is happening they are not likely giving that support.

Jason

OK, I still say in his situation with a snake looking like a second clutch is coming put the male in and feed it though.

That's why I say if the snake looks like it is going to go through the motions and you already cycled it and got clutch #1, then following up by going through the motions again is a good thing to do.

Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

LOL you didn't really read my post then. You got pissed off at the first line and then scanned it. HAHAHA I agree with feeding and breeding her now that it is to late. I just added in the info on how to stop the cycle.

Jason

when is the last time you saw a good egg get impacted? alost invariably its bad or infertile eggs that bind together and cause problems. Yes by all means put her with a male. Re-breeding wont cause doulbing but it may prevent impacting if she does. Calcium sups wouldn't hurt either.

I think it is too late.

She's gone into blue.

It should be noted that she copulated twice after the first copulation - with the third copulation on 4/7 (first on 3/20) - given that her prelay was on 4/21 - about a month after first copulation.

I think it is safe to say she was already developing fertilized eggs when she had her third copulation.

I think she retained sperm and used it very quickly after laying because her first clutch is just over a month and she's already in blue.

It will be interesting to see what comes out.

Oh - I don't think she's 18 month breeder.
I bought her at Sac last year, but she's over 3 feet long - I suspect she is an '04 and not an '05. The breeder told me she had not been bred before (he produced her though).
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

can you please elaborate in the last line- a young female needs to put energy into growing- is this a hatchling or a female already reproducing you are referring to?
I believe that if a female snake is producing follicles her body is saying she is able to breed, whatever size she is. whether she is successful in captivity is up to the support she is given, with appropriate meals, temp gradient, and nesting environment.
I used to breed only big females, until I tried breeding smaller females with more/better results. then I sold all my kings. only my experience,(=

"Did you feed her right after she laid the first clutch??.... If so this has a great deal to do with doubling."

I don't know what the factors are that lead to doubling but feeding right after a female lays is not the only predictor. I've tried withholding a few feedings from my female coastals to stop them from doubling and the sad fact is that MOST doubled anyway and were in fact worse off for my efforts to prevent them from doing so. This is just my opinion but captive snakes in good condition are likely to double every now and then regardless of what we think is right or normal.

You can only conclude two things for certain from this instance, one is that the snake could and two is that she was well cared for enough that she did.

She's in blue now - after she laid on May 3 - she ate 3 large f/t mice - if she fertilized right away, this would be a pre-lay shed she's about to have.

Interestingly - my amel (different snake) after she laid only took one mouse, and doesn't seem to be gravid.

I think though that I will continue to offer as much as they want after they clutch - but perhaps I will also next year give them opportunity to copulate again. I guess worst case scenario if I overproduce (more than I can find homes for), I find a cobra or indigo breeder looking for feeders ...
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)