Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Greetings:

I posted several messages about IBD and respiratory infections, and continue to be greatful for the responses. The lasted is the Fortaz did nothing and we've now just barely started all three adult red-tails on amikacin.
However, after the lab initially came back with NOTHING for either the bacterial or fungal cultures, despite having had some serious debris in a lung wash, the vet called today and said that the lab finally DID get some fungal growth and so now we're looking at possibly having to treat a fungal pneumonia. She wants us to do the full run of amikacin, try to up their temperatures(though lately all seem determined to stay as far away from their heat as possible), and she's looking into a new medication that we would have to nebulize. I'm still someone amused of the idea of trying to fit a face mask on a snake--since they don't have ears to tie it behind....*snort*
Our ball python continues to be blissfully healthy (or at least superfically so--- she hasn't been in to see the vet yet).

We're not planning on bringing anyone else in at this point. My bf and I are of very limited finances, and despite our accidental clutch of 21 healthy babies, we're not planning to be breeders. The red-tails are all rescues.

First question: How contagious is a fungal pneumonia? Any more so than bacterial? We're already trying to take appropriate care in cleaning up between handling each snake. And is any of this transferrable to either us or our pet rats?

Second: What kind of quality of life are we looking at here? Everyone is still eating, and acting normal, albeit more than a bit loud in their breathing. No neurological degeneration signs.
If the amikacin proves useless, and the nebulization does too--or ends up being more than we can afford--should we strongly consider putting them down now, or wait until our piggy babies refuse food? I know I've asked it before, but I'll ask it again-- how do you tell if a snake is in real pain and suffering in these circumstances?

Third: What are the most humane options of euthanization? What are the advantages/disadvantages of: a) lethal shot(s?) by the vet; b) putting them in the freezer; c) any other method I haven't heard about yet?

We love our babies. I've hated the fact that dollars and cents have been the recurring theme in every conversation I've had with the vet, but we're not rich, and we are only just on the edge of financial stability Without the vet bills we've been incurring. At the same time, we've been told that no matter what we do, it's not going to "cure" anything, but might only stave off the effects of the IBD (assuming that they all have it, based upon the testing on our male). Life itself is ultimately fatal. I would like to give them as long and as good a life as I can afford; I would also like to give them as short and as good a death as possible.

Any input/insights here would be greatly appreciated.
sorry again for the length of post.

Antigone

It was a long post, and I dislike that kingsnake doesn't let me reread it while I"m posting an answer. Let me know if I missed a question.

So far, it seems like everything is withen reason to continue (ignoring finances for the moment). This is still a very treatable illness, that is not very contagious barring proper husbandry.

When it comes to euthanasia, it is very much a personal decision, and this is where finances come in to play. Bottom line, if you don't have what it takes to move on, and the snake(s) is suffering, then it's time to euthanise. If you do have what it takes to move on, but the snake is suffering and it's unlikely to get better, then it's probably time to euthanize. When it comes to the point where you've done all you can, then there is no shame in hanging it up.

For euthanasia, the only humane method is to have the vet take care of it (will most likely use a barbituate overdose). Freezing is definately inhumane and expected to be quite painfull.

I hope you don't give up just yet, but also know you'll make the right choice for you and your snakes.

Good luck,
Ian

Hi

I was told that freezing slows them down to sleep-death. Not true?

Not planning on doing them in yet-- we're looking into what a nebulizer will cost us. The new drug will run $60 for all three.

Antigone

Cooling slows down herp's, but does nothing for pain control. If I recall correctly, the speed of neurotransmission doesn't vary a whole lot with temperature, but I could be wrong with this. Either way, the snakes would feel the exterior cells crystalize before they die, which, if you've ever been frost bitten, would be excruciating.

Ian

The correct procedure for euthanasia by freezing, for ectotherms, is rarely ever followed. The animal should first be placed in a refrigerator at 35 to 40 F for 12 to 24 hours and then placed in a freezer. The torpor induced by the slightly above freezing temps will allow the next step freezing temps to euthanize the animal without the issue of pain by freezing tissue. All but their very basal body chemistry is structured to operate at much higher temps and the refrigerator temps will render them essentially unconscious. I agree that going directly to the freezer as the first step is likely to cause some pain issues.

Kelly

While this makes sense, it doesn't fit with what I've seen in that cold doesn't create any level of analgesia. Whether this animal is unconscious or not... is one of the keys to being humane. The AVMA only says that freezing is not alloweable is a sole method of euthanasia, meaning that another acceptable method must be done first but perhaps leaving room for still alive, but unconscious animals to be frozen as acceptable. Nothing is mentioned towards cooling as acceptable. While this is better than straight into the freezer in that it might avoid the excruciating crystalization effect, it also mentions that forcing the animal into anaerobic respiration is unacceptably uncomfortable among other, perhaps trivial problems with this method.

All in all, without splitting hairs, I'll stick by my recommendation that either method is not recommended until further enlightened.

Ian

I did not mean to imply that this was the best method, just that if that was the only choice available, it should be done in such a way as to ensure the least trauma and discomfort. Chemical euthanasia is much preferred over any physical type. Anaerobic respiration would never be an issue with the slow metabolic rate induced by the cooling. The oxygen concentration would never reach levels low enough to induce hypoxia before the respiration was slowed by the cooler temps.

Kelly