Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Sorry to disturb you with this again, but you have struck a sensible nerve in me. This bloody gum thing have been my main interest for many years now, in fact iv posted about it several times just to see if I was the only one interested by it. this was the reason iv kept jobiensis, Doreanus and salvadorii in numbers for many years, iv compiled a lot of data from many dissections and analysis thru the years. 3 years ago I informed the science community about my discovery of what appeared as venom ducks in the lower jaw in salvadorii, they ridiculed me finding all kinds of use for these canals, in truth they didn’t know.

Today with a little more research under my belt, I am the one who’s laughing at these ignorant, and this from my non academic pedestal.

The reason your vet wont be of much help is because you own a VENOMOUS monitor, yap this mix of saliva and blood comes from active and functional glands, but before you run off and panic peoples over this, be informed these are non dangerous lizards.

Your monitor needs good husbandry and tranquility, when it feels safe he will start eating, your vet will only concludes to bacterial infection and treat a problem that’s non existent, or worst attempt to fix a problem he cant understand.

I really think I should not post on these forums, but FR seems to think any help is good help, so I am offering you this in good spirit knowing you and most here will not understand anything about this.

I am sorry but studying varanids is my life interest, that’s what Iv been doing, am doing and will do for the rest of my life.

jobi,
First off, please don't mistake this for anything other than what it is, a Q & A session. I'm not here to debate or try to discredit, I want you to convince me & everyone else here. I want to believe you, but I've got to be convinced. I think you know what I mean.

Are you saying that the holes beside the teeth are in essence venom ducts?

Is this similar to the komodo saliva thing-a-ma-jig?

Are the holes connected by one sac, canal or tube, that lies underneath the flesh?

Would you mind sharing with us what the scientific community claimed the canals were used for?

Do you have any chemical breakdown reports or toxicity reports?

Have you tested what you believe to be venom on any prey to view its results?

If the red fluid is venom, can you explain why its present/visible sometimes but not others?

Based on what I've read the last day or so it appears to be associated with stress. Can you explain the relaionship between stress and venom?

Now, bear in mind, these are merely questions that I have which I feel are important to me in coming to a reasonble conclusion of my own. None of the above was typed with any hasty thoughts or ill will. You respect me, I respect you. I am not trying to pick a fight nor am I trying to discredit you in any way.

I wanna learn and I have an open mind, although, I am a bit skeptical, at the moment. I think you can understnad that, though.

Thank you for your time!

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

It is understood that Varanid species do in fact possess a form of venom. Modified salivary glands produce venom components in low concentration and its function is largely vestigial (Fry et al., 2006) The weak venom serves to prevent a bite wound from clotting,and makes bites from these species unusually painful. Unlike snakes, which utilize hollow fangs as delivery structures, monitor venom simply pools around the lizard's teeth and enters the bloodstream when the prey animal is biten.

refrence for above

Fry, B. G., Vidal, N., and Norman, J. A., 2006. Early evolution of the venom system in lizards and snakes. Nature 439: 584-588.

Good article on monitor venom

[ulr]http://uninews.unimelb.edu.au/articleid_3009.html[/url]

Corrected url

Venom

Thanks, eragon.

After I read your first post and did a lil' quick research I found a .pdf of the Fry report.

As you can tell from at least one of my questions in my first post, I'm from the old school & my data is outdated. LOL!

> > > "Is this similar to the komodo saliva thing-a-ma-jig?"

I was still under the impression that it was bacteria in the saliva, which it doesn't appear to be, based on what I just read, which I'm also inclined to believe.

Well that's good, I'm starting the day off right. I've learned something today.

eragon,
Are you aware of any connection between the bleeding gums issue and the venom? I quickly scanned thru the Fry report & may have missed it but I haven't seen anything associating the two or saying that the venom is red in color.

For the average person with a non-scientific mind (and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense), I don't think varanids' venom actually meets the bill for the word "venom." Technically, yes, it is a type of venom, just not in the sense that the word is commonly used today.

Thanks for your time & insight!

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hi Hill, This issue is getting out of hand. First off, all varanids are NOW venomous. Dr. Fry. Recently published extensive research documenting that. But us old timers already knew this was the case. A simple hole in your skin does not bleed much and for long. Varanid bites bleed excessively and sting more then they should. This is very noticeable with the smaller monitors. They simply should not hurt as much as they do.

Dr. Fry, identified Crototoxin as a common substance in their venom. Which is named after a substance in Rattlesnake venom.

Not only do varanids have this, but so do colubrids and many other types of harmless reptiles.

The point here is, all varanids have this, not just indo types. So the bleeding gums that is common in several indo species, are most likely nothing to do with their venom and delivery system.

Are these indo species the most toxic? naw, in my humble opinion(one bitten by many many species, big and small) V.kingorum wins, those tiny little suckers, knock the beans out of you. And they are SOOOOOOO tiny. As a comparision, V.caudolineatus and brevicauda, do nothing. But kingorum, ohhhhhhh man. hahahahahahahahahaha. I have pics too.

As with many things, I do not give a flying turtle shell what causes the bleeding gums. I "do" care about having the ability to control it.

As I mentioned, bleeding gums occurs with STRESSED individuals. Not on healthy individuals. That is, FOR ME(and thats who I care about, first) my healthy breeders did not have bleeding gums. But if I neglected them( I do that from time to time) their gums would bleed. If I then took good care of them, it would stop. If I failed to address the issue and did not take good care of them, the gums bled more and more and the monitors finally died.

I do not believe its the gums that killed them. I think its a failed immune system that killed them(like all species). I think these indo types normally carry a high bacterial load, and as soon as the immune system is compromised, its first appears as bleeding gums.

There are several things that bother me. One, if it was normal, why don't they all do it, all the time? Answer this, its a big question. Heck, not even all fresh imports have bleeding gums. Two, The thought that captivity is not stressful. Yes, this really bothers me, I don't care how well we take care of them. Captivity is a constant stress. These animals are NOT designed to be kept in tiny cages and perform to our whims. So captivity is always stressful to some degree or another.

STUPID people always discuss my methods. I have no methods other then to try and limit captive stress, PERIOD. ALL the tools I use(notice tools are not a method) such as retes stacks, deep substrate, lites 24/7, etc are only to limit captive stress. They are not my husbandry, the goal of my husbandry is to limit CAPTIVE stress.

Again, STUPID people, think holding them or the site of you is the only stress. If they are healthy, they could careless. What is a concern is BASIC physical needs in conjuction with basic mental needs. The lack of that is VERY STRESSFUL.

The reason I say "stupid people" is simple and accurate. If you think putting them in a box and take away their control(over their own life) is not stressful, your indeed stupid.

Back to bleeding gums. If I could not controll it, I would then need to know more about it(do more research) but I can control it, just like a thousand other stresses that occur in captivity. This is no more or no less important then any other stress. So I have no need to know anymore about it. ITS about context, I have a need to understand the WHOLE MONITOR, and how it works, not be an expert of little pieces and fail with the whole.

That last part confuses academics and the likes of the NL crowd. They pride themselves on being expert on paper, yet struggle with living animals. DUDES and dudettes, the papers are suppose to enable you to be expert on the living animals, IN THE CONTEXT OF KEEPING LIVING ANIMALS. We are not tested on academic knowledge, we are tested daily on the real subject, the living animal. OUR CAPTIVES.

In that, the real living reptiles, I am doing good, as good as anybody and sadly maybe better then most. Surely better then those that argue academic knowledge(they are out of context). Again, CONTEXT rears its ugly head.

In this context, bleeding gums, its not about the gums themselves, its about what causes them to bleed EXCESSIVELY. ITS CAPTIVE STRESS. And its easily controlled. Cheers

In your vision, wild monitor don't bleed gums?
Bleeding gums is only a way to see your animal is stress. In some case, bleeding gums don't have anything to do with stress, it's only a normal part of the teeth replacement. Monitors don't die from bleeding gums and from my experience, indo monitor are more prone to bleeding gums
Take care!
Justin

Sorry, its not my vision, its my experience, mind you, It could be limited and not all that accurate. But, and I have to add that, I have a suitable amount of experience, in captivity, in the field and even reading literature. Specially when compared to all others in this/these conversations. Which surely does not mean I am right.

No, will monitors suffer all levels of stress, in fact, a very high percentage perish, at all givin times, from neonates to adults. Of course there are plenty of any thriving populations that have very successful conditions(lack of stress) But without question, success always leads to stress(overpopulation, lack of prey, lack of suitable habitat, etc)

Also weather conditions are a continual natural stress. Too hot, to cold, too wet, too dry, etc.

So a stressed out wild monitor could indeed have bleeding gums. The truth is, its rare in nature.

Many years ago, a Dr.(human type) did some casual research. He found that gram-negative bacteria was prevelent in all captive snakes. Those bacteria were often the cause of many common captive maladies. So this fine Doc went in the field. In fact, he went to indo. His test was doing Phayringel swaps(sp and it means, nasal cavity) All captives tested positive to gram-negative bacteria. All wild snakes, tested negative for the same. With one special note. He also tested captives at the holding areas, where fresh wildcaughts were held. They too tested positive for these types of bacteria.

This is only a casual test and did not mean to much, except that captivity may have some effects.

Also consider, even healthy captives tested positive. That is, they had smaller loads of these bacteria, but not at harmful levels.

This test was taken in the days of early python breeding when captive conditions were marginal. I would love to see what those levels are now in some of the better breeders captives. My bet is they are either gone or very low.

This also compares well to varanids, VARANIDS are at a very begining of successful breeding. There are a few breeders, but not very many. In fact, there were more python breeders at the time of that test then varanid breeders now.

So again, bleeding gums is normally in the presences of high loads of gram-negative bacteria. I have to wonder. Cheers

sss

Yup, that would be Dr. Richard Ross. Cheers

This was the package I wanted to send you a few years ago, remember I asked your address and Dragoon posted if it ticks don’t open it, this comment of hers made me reconsider and wait. I needed more information and one thing led to an other until I got out of hospital, the first thing I did was to send you a photo of me, I remember my wife as she took the photo, your crazy why would you want a photo of you this way? Its was just for the records, I was hopping we both talk about this when we meet, but as the years passes we both have other commitments and no time for shows and leisure’s.

Thanks for your insight, you know its always appreciated by me.

Rgds

Different groups, different goals. Scientists, keepers. Makes for quite a clash of egos.

Of course, we could go on & on & on & on... about this but what's the point, its the Neverending Story. Its already been discussed in several other threads within the last week alone.

I know what you mean about people talking about "your" method because I've seen it mentioned countless times over the few yrs I've been reading these forums.

"Your" method, the method that you use, actually belongs to Average Joe, and he named it: "K.I.S.S." short for - "Keep It Simple, Stupid."

One reason some people may have problems with it is because its not complicated enough, doesn't require a whole lot of thinking.

A lot of the scientific stuff interests me, but I can't let it distract me right now because I'm still trying to fine tune my husbandry to reduce my nile's stress (my sav seems to be doing OK) so they'll grow like they should & live long & healthy lives.

After reading all the other posts I saw where jobi said he spoke French & had to translate things to English. That explains why I got the impression that bleeding gums & venom were connected. Heck, English is hard enough for me to understand, let alone if French was my main language.

Thanks for taking the time to put things in a "common" perspective.

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

In all the years I have been posting here, and thru numerous generations of many species, AND countless genius
(self appointed) and PHD's, ALL trying to figure out what I do, YOUR the only one who has. In that, you should feel special.

I will add a little bit more. K.I.S.S. is very important with my approach, as is, PSM(Proper troubleshooting Methods) Which goes hand in hand with KISS. The first rule of PSM is, simplist things first.

If this was auto mechanics, I check for fuel/air/electricity, first. While my complicated peers(?) are studying the, internal vibration dynamics of a four cylinder internal combustion engine over 2500 liters. They are hard at work when the problem is the dang engine is out of gas.

What is very funny in a complicated way is, the more success I have(big dumb me) the more those folks keep studying out of context complicated information. Which keeps putting them farther and farther behind. They are caught is a rip current, the more the tide carries them out, the harder they swim, the harder they swim the worse the situation gets.

The key to monitors is and always has been, they are not specialized, they are generalized. Which in reptilian terms makes them more behavioral and less adapted to specific tight conditions.

For all those that have gone to countries where varanids live. They are more common around people, in cities, in farmlands, then in the wilds of nature(like rats and mice) This makes them good canidates as a feral or evasive species, think niles in the deranged wetlands of Fla. What I find funny is, these wetlands are full of introduced(feral&invasive) insects, plants, fish, mammals, birds, humans. And the genius's at Fish and Wildthings, think a native species is suppose to live there???????? Those folks have been smokin the rope, anyone with common sense knows, native species need native habitat. KISS

I am amazed that people are so dumb. I really am. Keeping monitors is a direct performance guided task. If your monitor is doing well, your providing something to allow that. The better your results, the better the support must be. You do not need advanced biology or theoretical behavioral science based on advanced mathematical logirythums, filtered thru paradigmical analysesesss of a theoretical think tank(with no practical experience), Wheres spell check when you need it??????

Yea, KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID, and believe in the subject, the subject in the context of this forum, IS THE MONITOR, not the literature about the monitor. The context is the monitor, the context is the monitor, the context is the monitor, the context is the monitors. hahahahahahahaha keep saying that over and over.

I(FR) am not the context, Sam Sweet is not the context, Bob(odatria?) is not the context, WE are not the context, words are not the context, books are not the context. the context is the living monitor WE, the ones mentioned, are to aid in the context, the monitors

As you have seen there are very few who actually understand the context. In otherwords, most of these fancy folks do not put tool to task, they make a study of the tools. Cheers

2.5 liters, hahahahahahahaha

Oops! Sorry, FR, I got sidetracked and forgot about replying to this. I didn't mean to be rude.

As for me figurin' out what you do, no reason for me to feel special about it because it doesn't take a rocket scientist (or herp scientist) to see it.

This ain't no love letter & I'm not suckin' up to ya (This time, at least. Ha!), but I can relate, somewhat, to what you've been thru years ago with the "experts" saying how wrong you were and people now considering the way you do things to be unconventional.

While I've not risen to your level of expertise or reached the status that you have among the "Pros," I get a lot of flack from clinical-minded keepers about my "unconventional" ways. In order to understand what "unconventional" means we have to know what "conventional" means. No sense in us getting into that right now because I feel we already know.

> > > "I will add a little bit more. K.I.S.S. is very important with my approach, as is, PSM(Proper troubleshooting Methods) Which goes hand in hand with KISS. The first rule of PSM is, simplist things first. ......... If this was auto mechanics, I check for fuel/air/electricity, first."

Excellent point. Agreed. Its the same way in troubleshooting computers. If it won't fire up, check the elec cord, etc...

You posted a correction on the motor size but I think you had it right to begin with. The motor is actually a 2.5 liter but by the time some people get thru looking for, and adding, more details, it ends up being the equivalent of a 2500 liter engine. Waaaayyy too complicated.

I've seen you make a difference in the few yrs I've been around here, so don't think that your peein' in the wind, 'cause you're not. Of course, there will always be that occasional gust but that's when we have to pee harder.

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

HH or should I say AA or if your into crosses HAHA, I haven’t responded to you because eragon and Frank did, I believe all of your questions where answered in this thread, not in a particular order but nevertheless answered.

Of course you understand my posts are not about venom, they are about proper husbandry and why vets screw up with these varanids. It would have been simpler to say leave it alone and give it proper husbandry, but how would this explain the problematic?

Ha! I didn't think you were blowing me off. Like you said, my questions were answered. Thanks!

I saw where you mentioned about having to translate from French to English. That explains why me and a few others misunderstood you on the venom/bleeding gums, thinking you were saying they were connected. The English language is said to be the hardest & I agree, especially for an ol' English-speaking hillbilly like me. We'll get it figured out, sport! Ha!

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Jobi, I do not at all refute what you are saying(I do not know,do not keep them ect...) I think its good to cover all sorts of topics here. The problem is I think your info is of no use to a new monitor owner who you are addressing. The issue goes far beyond bleeding gums. Time is a valuable resource. The newbies time would be far better spent getting the basics....once that is coming along they can focus on tweaking things, behaviour, hopefully not bleeding gums ect...Sounds like you do some good work and this thread may lead to a great discussion but it does not help petlover...they need to stay on task. cheers, big ears.

You are right, but vets not knowing about this, they prescribe unnecessary treatments that for the most part kill the host, I know from experience these monitors fair better with proper husbandry then antibiotics, of course sometimes the only option left is medical.

By simply saying this to a vet I got several 1000$ worth of free lab work.

Its in this optic that I posted

Over medicating is a bad thing. Nothing shoots breeding attempts/healthy living down faster than too much medication if any at all. Ideally our herps should not need too much medical attention because they are provided for correctly. That would be the bonus plan for petlover....doing such a good job that their peachie needs no vet...it needs a mate. cheers, big ears.

I used to kill monitors with all kinds of medications, that was before I read FR’s take on how these animals have excellent immune systems, they can heal from the worst things if we provide them with options (tools)
I haven’t seen a vet for a sick monitor in years.

Can you answer some questions for me?

What purpose does blood from bleeding gums serve in a venom/toxin/bacterial delivery system?

Are toxins only present when the gums are bleeding or are the toxins always present? If the toxins are always present, how do bleeding gums effect the venom/bacteria? If the bleeding gums do not effect the venom/bacteria in any way, how are they related to the venom in any way?

For monitors that were observed with bloody gums, do they bleed consantly, voluntarily, or involuntarily? Why do some monitors of the same species show bleeding gums yet others do not? Has bleeding gums been observed in monitors in the wild?

Thanks,
Daniel

Blood has nothing to do with venom, its the consequence of injury, jungle monitors have longer teeth then savannah species, why? Simply because loosing a prey often means loosing a meal in dens vegetation or high up in the canopy, savannas specie are adept at giving chase, gould and varius are extraordinary at this so they evolved different teeth’s adapted to there needs.

In this case (jobiensis) we are talking about a new import, this monitor is obviously highly stressed and every time he sees the owner, he builds up in preparation for a nasty defence bite, this causes other problems witch eventually will lead to immune dysfunction (general septicaemia)

Oh I forgot; glands are activated by pressure, it’s the biting force that’s causes gland secretion and bleeding. Less stressed monitors don’t apply this excessive pressure. Obviously if you molest them they will.

I think you are combining two topics that do not need to be combined. Bleeding gums in monitors is the result of stress....it has nothing to do with venom/toxic saliva/bacteria. So why make a thread that sounds like the two are related? The only thing that would relate the two based on your posts is the bite pressure exerted.

From you theory it seems like you would have been better to say that...

Monitors bite harder when stressed which causes damage to gums possibly resulting in bleeding. Monitors also have been shown to produce a slight toxin in their saliva which makes bites painful and dangerous.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that some reptiles have something 'extra' included in their bites. I have been bitten by some small monitors and several common non-venomous snakes where the bite bled alot, became very sore, and caused more complications especially when compared to similar non-reptile injuries.

Nothing is as complicated as you seem to want to make it. Monitor bites hurt and if you get bit bad, see a doctor for treatment before it gets out of hand.

You should add something to the table!
Sins you obviously know more then I do, why not share with me?
Then you can word it to your liking and make it look brilliant.

nothing is as simple as you want it to be!

I never made a comment concerning 'who knows more than who' so why make such a comment? I actually know very little with respect to monitor lizards, but I do know reptiles.

In my opinion, your logic seems flawed and your presentation was unclear. So I asked for clarification then presented my interpretation. I apologize if that knotted your panties.

Things are simple....people like you make them complicated.

Peoples like me need to translate words from French to English, and in the process I have to keep them in the same perspective witch I find very difficult to do.
So my apologies if they get to complicated for you, take a pill.
Just teasing you here, honestly I wish I could write the way you and others do.

Hello Jobi,
I know this is a bit late, but you are doing great with the translation. As You and FR have already mentioned- the issue here again- poor husbandry and or stress may situate "bloody gums". I'm sure there are other things on this topic that you guys could teach me, but thanks for this much... Thanks for clarity- Mike

lizardheadmike wrote;
"...you are doing great with the translation."

I'm beginning to think jobi was pullin somebody's leg when he said "Peoples like me need to translate words from French to English,..."

His reply to a joke I made about "taking the bait - hook, line, and sinker" could be a telltale sign. Ha! Ha! He knew exactly what the joke meant, which most people of French culture wouldn't. Gotta watch that rascal. Ha! Ha!

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

n/m

Of course I know what a hook, sinker and line is, and yes I can understand a lot more then I can speech or write, but I wasn’t pulling anyone’s leg about my difficulties to word my English, sometimes I really struggle about it, a sentence when translated often changes signification because the words don’t always mean exactly the same, for example a sinker in French is (un plomb) a hook is (un hameçon) and a ling is (une ligne) your entire sentence "taking the bait - hook, line, and sinker" in French (j’ai pris la l’appât le crochet, le ligne et le plomp) that’s word for word translation, but in French it doesn’t have the same meaning, we would say for the same expression you said ( jai tout gobe come un poisson) now if I was to traselate this in English it would change meanings (I gobbled every thing like a fish) don’t know if this is a common expression or not? I never heard anyone say it before.

Anyway you are right about something, I am pulling someone’s leg, but with this entire thread, not just a few words, and it’s not mean or prejudice to anyone, the information that come out of this thread are very good nevertheless. The hidden part is secret and pure fun. Of course those who feel a little to emotional when reading me know exactly what I mean.

Ha! Ha!

> > > "I gobbled every thing like a fish."

Pretty darn close, plenty close enough for me. Basically, the phrase I used means: Not only did I take the bait, I took everything else with it.

Well, my hat's off to ya, sport! You are doing a good job translating and I can imagine that it can get quite confusing at times with how the same words used together have different meanings between French & English.

So, you really were pulling somebody's leg, just not the leg I thought it was. Ha! Ha!

I do think that this thread turned out to be a good one, and stayed pretty calm, too.

Hang in there!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Yes this is a good thread with lots of information, I was hesitant to post this in fear of upsetting the wrong folks, some I have a lot of respect for.

I can tell you would have loved the war days on these forums, all camps would have enjoyed your take no dough.

I only post to stir emotions, good or bad as long as it moves aim fine.

Kind regards

Thanks for the kind words, jobi.

I see I'm going to have to keep my eyes on you. LOL!

Have a great day!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hi Happy, the key to understanding Jobi is in his last post. Study it carefully.

The more you learn about Jobi, the better it gets. Cheers

I find it very hard to translate from monitor to english, or any language, as monitors work in a stream of behaviors, not broken up my words. Also their behaviors are not disconnected from eachother. The are one, the monitor.

This is most likely why do not not favor academic varanid science. They break down everything until its meaningless to the monitor. If it becomes meaningless to the monitor, then its meaningless to me. Therefore it made itself useless by breaking down things to too small of a meaning.

The monitors have taught me to have faith in them. Words have not taught me that.

Today, one told me, I will have eggs tomorrow. I hope it goes well. Cheers

> > > "I find it very hard to translate from monitor to english, or any language,..."

LOL! I couldn't remember if I ever said anything about interpreting your posts as coming from a monitor itself, or not. You translate very well, Sir, very well.

> > > "Today, one told me, I will have eggs tomorrow. I hope it goes well."

Uh-oh! Next thing we know you'll be teaming up with your sister, DWS, making videos for youtube.

Hang in there!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

This is not the best question and on my way out door but you said they essentially bite harder/bleed due to stress. that makes sense, is it possible thereason for the bleeding is comparable to a stressed out human grinding their teeth? hey, maybe when monitors(like people) get a little freaked they do things that really are good for them(in essence or literally??) "grind their teeth". just a thought. i need to read that link. cheers, big ears.

Actually the longer teeth’s witch are a bonus prey habitat wise, are also an inconvenient to captivity. These do damage when the lizards are stressed enough exert massive jaw pressure, maybe in nature such stressful event are few and far between, but in captivity and on a daily basis, I dough the lizard has time to regenerate damaged tissues.

How does toxic components in saliva all the sudden become vemom? Fry is a tabloid scientist and there are a lot of people who think he is off his rocker. By his reasoning humans are venomous animals. There needs to be a functional and evolutionary significance for this. Please, a true venom has a specific purpose(to rapidly kill prey), and it also has morphological and behavioral characteristics that are associated with this purpose. This has been clearly defined in the literature. I am all about this as a discussion not a flame war.
Cheers,

-----
"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

After a knee surgery last year, I was bored to hell and foolishly decided to test this on something else then rats, guess what? I ended up 8 days in intensive care with pulmonary emboli and sever glottis infection not to mention internal hemorrhagic.
So if you think Fry is a tabloid scientist, maybe he is? I don’t know him.
But for me and my work I am living proof this is serious stuff.

Oh by the way, this was from a captive raised animal not an import.

Ok, I don't doubt that you had a reaction to an animal bite, do you know the kind of reactions you can have from a human bite? But to use a term with a specific significance such as venom to me and some others implies a function. The pharmacology of a saliva in itself is not enough. Fry has used this type of data (protein structure and homologs) to label most snakes as venomous and merging a true venomous system with Duvernoy's glands and says they are the same thing. They are very different systems, and serve different funtions. The terminology used to describe these phenomena should note the differences and not confuse them with a blanket term "venomous".
Cheers,
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Now that I am aware of Fry’s work, I will contact him and see if he can look at my medical record, then I will let you know exactly what’s conclusive about it. as we speech I don’t really know, but nevertheless its very intriguing and far from banal.

Hi Jason, I argued your point of view when Dr. Fry posted his findings here. Maybe you can look it up in the archives.

I have no doubt that crototoxin is present in many species. After all, venom glands evolved from normal harmless glands. Its very logical that many of the same components are the same, only in different amounts.

I wonder what hummingbirds have in THEIR saliva??????? Cheers

Frank how do I look for the archive? I tried Dr-fry and fund nothing? was this in 2006?

hahahahahahaha heck if I know, I do not look back more then a day or so. I live for the now and the future, not the past. hahahahahahahahahaha

No, I have never used the archives. But It was either 05 or most likely 06. Cheers

jobi,
Do a search for: (plus sign)varanid(plus sign)venom in 2006 archives. I got a few hits from that search phrase and I think one is what you're lookin' for.

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hi Frank,
Nice! I've had a few threads deleted in the venomous forum where I called him out too. I was also a part of a response that was submitted to nature calling him on it, but they didn't like it either. But what else can you do?.....And he called me a flat-earther, hahahahahahahahaha. At least I still know the difference!
Cheers,

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

So far, from what he said to me. I cannot really argue with him. If they have crototoxin they have it, end of story. Its not even the terminology that causes problems. Its the readers, there is so much ignorance when it comes to reptiles, that people read venom, and they assume its like a rattlesnake or king brown or a cobra. So its more about the readers and their ignorance then what he published.

So I cannot argue with him, other then, Why would you want to publish something so meaningless. The monitors and colubrids are no more dangerous/vemonous or different, then they were before he published his work.

So, its only importance is for bio-chemists. So he should have published it in such a way that they have access to his information and not have it reach the general(ignorant) public. Cheers

These findings of vestigial type organs and venom are very, very important to people who follow evolutionary biology. He did not study and publish this stuff for recreational lizard keepers,lol. People need to know the difference between "venom" that can harm a human and that which cannot (the people are the problem, not the term) - it is still classified as a venom based on what is coming out of the glands in the jaw.

Well I have reason to argue with him, because I do not believe that a Duvernoy's secretion is a venom. Why would a constricting snake(boiga) have a venom? It does however contain oral secretions that are similar to some components present in a truely venomous snake such as a rattlesnake. But what does the oral secretion mean to each? To the rattlesnake it is its means of predation, but to the boiga? That is the reason I cannot consider Fry's recommendation. I don't think he is looking at it from the reptiles point of view, but rather only from a medical(public). Like you said what is present in the saliva of a hummingbird? Why on earth would he want to assimilate a Duvernoy's gland with a true venom gland?
Cheers
Jason
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

In the logical sense, monitors don't have venom. In the physical sense, they do.

Of course, its only logical that scientists deal with the physical. If so, then who deals with the logical? Unfortunately, we can't say that keepers, or, average keepers, do. There are too many people into keeping reptiles these days that flat out lack both logic & reasoning. Common sense has left the building.

I am one of the ignorant readers/keepers you mentioned. And no, I wasn't offended by your statement. I know the true meaning of ignorance, I wear it well, sometimes. Ha!

Let's pretend for a moment that the average keeper does deal with the logical. Given the context that the word "venom" has been used in, at least during the last 40-plus yrs that I'm aware of, its only logical to think "Beware!"

I don't fault Fry for studying/reporting it. I think the problem lies with the people bringing the info to the forums. Being a logical, common sense, man, if I was going to post info on about it in a thread I would use one of several different words before or after "venom" to diminish its strength. Something like: "Your monitor has traces of venom....."

I got snookered on this one. I took the bait - hook, line & sinker.

And talk about context, this isn't a scientific forum. This forum's main audience is ignorant people like me. People that don't think scientifically.

FR, you were dead on! Its all about context.

Ya'll take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I took the bait - hook, line & sinker.

Hahahaha don’t kill yourself over this, entertainment is for all breeds of peoples, call me anything but boring!
Cheers!

In the original thread, nobody said anything about the monitor having substrate in its mouth. I didn't give it much weight but it stuck in my mind as a possible sign of something other than it was just hungry.

I can only relate a lot of these things to my nile & sav, neither of which I've ever seen with substarte in their mouth. I was just curious why nobody mentioned anything about it.

Is it common for monitors with bleeding gums to chew on things to releif stress or work the gums?

Thanks!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Not sure i understand clearly your point. In all the case of bleeding gum (not mouth roth)i saw, lizard where on defensive mode or a teeth was falling to make place for a new one. Maby crocs and indicus group have more fragile teeth, don't know.
In my case, it as nothing to do with stuck substrate in mouth.
Take care!
Justin
P.S. Wich (healthy) monitor group you guys experienced bleeding gums(not mouth roth..hehhehe!) more frequently?
Thank's
Justin

In the original thread on this issue, the person with the problem said;
"K so I was holding my peachthroat and I noticed a little blood by his mouth so I look at it and there was some coconut bark in his mouth, So I rinsed it out and I couldn't see where the blood was coming from. The next day I take a look at him and it gets worse...I don't get it. Also, he won't eat and he is starting to look skinny and suggestions?...."

The "coconut bark in his mouth" seemed odd to me but since nobody said anything about it I was wondering if its common for them to be found with substrate in their mouth.

Thanks!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

"K so I was holding my peachthroat and I noticed a little blood by his mouth so I look at it and there was some coconut bark in his mouth, So I rinsed it out and I couldn't see where the blood was coming from. The next day I take a look at him and it gets worse...I don't get it. Also, he won't eat and he is starting to look skinny and suggestions?...."

New imports of this specie don’t allow handling and will flee and struggle, this could explain both coconut and bleeding.

The sad fact is this keeper has obtained a monitor witch should be kept by more experienced keepers, if he keeps forcing handling on this monitor it will die, plain and simple.