Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm planning on getting an EDB or two within the next few months, possibly for breeding, and wanted get some difference of opinions on whether I should get wild-caught or captive-bred.

Wild-caught ones, for me, are by far cheaper since I know where I can find them. What I'm not sure of is how difficult it can be to get them eating. If I remember right, juveniles adjust easier.

I'll have a hard time dishin' out $125 for one when I can catch one within a few hours or so. But I'll defnitely take all things into consideration & try to do the right/best thing.

A few other questions I'd like to ask are:
1. Where can I find antivenom? (EDBs are only found in the eastern part of NC, not here in the western part, so no hospital will have it.)
2. Where can I find info on how to store/keep antivenom?
3. Do any of you keep injectible adrenaline and antihistamines or are they not neccessary for an EDB bite? Where can I find it if I should keep some on hand?

Thank you for taking the time to help me out, I really appreciate it.

Take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

C. Adamanteus requires the same AV as copperheads & C. Horridus which I believe would be found in that part of NC,
most larger hospitals would probably have it. If I were you I would take the time to get your own supply(my personal preference would be for the Bioclon instead of the crofab). I keep two epipens in my snake room, it costs somewhere around $100.00 every two years to replace them, cheap life insurance! I got a prescription for them from my doctor.

Go with the captive born, there is no need to take them out of the wild when so many are available CB.

Ryan,

Thank you for your input, Ryan. I appreciate it.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

To answer your questions:
1) I would highly recommend obtaining a nice, captive bred and born baby. Although locally common in some areas, EDB's are, for the most part, disappearing from the wild. Why compound the problem? For me, it's also a philosophical issue as I do not advocate the plucking of wildlife from the wild unless there is a specific conservation management purpose. C.b. animals, particularly EDB's, fare much better in captivity than w/c specimens. If price is a determining factor, I would hold off on keeping one...you can spend that much in a single vet visit if the snake gets sick.

2) If you can't afford a $125 EDB, you'll be hard pressed to afford the thousands of dollars worth of A/V that you'll need to keep on hand. If there are no hospitals in your area that keeps CroFab or something similar, I would hold off on getting an EDB. You might check your local herp society, colleges/universities or zoos to see who keeps A/V on hand and see if you can have some special agreement in the event of a bite. Just be prepared, though, that you'll be responsible for re-stocking these other institutions which could run you in the tens of thousands of dollars. We had to borrow A/V from another zoo who was gracious enough to help us out while we were awaiting our BB-IND to be finalized. There are folks willing to help but you have to project yourself as a professional and serious keeper.

3) All of my staff, including myself, have an Epi-Pen on site in the case of a bite that causes shock. This is a bit controversial and you must be able to recognize the signs of shock. It's a nice back up but no replacement for antivenin.

Hope this helps.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>I'm planning on getting an EDB or two within the next few months, possibly for breeding, and wanted get some difference of opinions on whether I should get wild-caught or captive-bred.
>>
>>Wild-caught ones, for me, are by far cheaper since I know where I can find them. What I'm not sure of is how difficult it can be to get them eating. If I remember right, juveniles adjust easier.
>>
>>I'll have a hard time dishin' out $125 for one when I can catch one within a few hours or so. But I'll defnitely take all things into consideration & try to do the right/best thing.
>>
>>A few other questions I'd like to ask are:
>>1. Where can I find antivenom? (EDBs are only found in the eastern part of NC, not here in the western part, so no hospital will have it.)
>>2. Where can I find info on how to store/keep antivenom?
>>3. Do any of you keep injectible adrenaline and antihistamines or are they not neccessary for an EDB bite? Where can I find it if I should keep some on hand?
>>
>>Thank you for taking the time to help me out, I really appreciate it.
>>
>>Take care!
>>HH
>>-----
>>Due to political correctness run amuck,
>>this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
>>Appalachian American
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Rob.

Yes, it does help.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

without a doubt CBB is the way to go. You are right they might cost you a bit more. But in the end you will not have taken any more from the wild. And with some of the selective bred yellow beauties out there you cant go wrong. The EDB is decreasing in numbers fast due to rampant collection habitat destruction and ignorant fools that kill snakes.

As for the antivenom, Their antivenom is CroFab and that antivenom is used for most North American venomous snakes so your local hospitals and zoos or poison control will have it.

So rather then try to acquire some and store it. Your best bet is to spend the time on your protocols book and dial 911. It is not a bad idea to let your doctor know you intend to keep venomous as well.
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Dan S.
Crotalus & Company
Venom-Center Your Complete Venomous Community
Wisconsin Reptile Community

Unless NC law has changed (and it may have), last I checked it was unlawful to possess C. adamanteus in NC....Am I out of the loop here? If you're not sure, you might want to check your local/state laws before searching for/buying one....I do believe NC "protects" most of it's native venomous snakes...(read that to mean you can't possess them, but Wal-Mart can build a mega-store on top of their habitat!)

As far as AV, it's pretty much the same AV that is used to treat the bites of most other North American crotalids...

Definitely go cb IMO....these animals generally fare better in captivity, are parasite free and have better feeding responses than an animal taken from the wild...Paying 250.00 for a pair of C. adamanteus is definitely a price I'd be willing to pay for a pair of these magnificent, majestic animals! (That is if they were legal to keep here in Az!)

-AzAtrox

Thanks for posting, helping out. I do appreciate it.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Thanks, Dan. I appreciate the info.

Later!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Thank you all for the great replies!

From the replies it looks like I went about this backward, unintentionally. My next thread was going to be about the status & conservation of EDBs.

I've actually been thinking for the last few years about starting a small-time conservation program for EDBs, breeding them & releasing into the wild, in proper, safe, areas, of course.

I'm very well of the fact that the kill/release ratio will be huge, but what do I do, sit back & do nothing? Nah, that's not me. I've always had a lot of love & compassion for these majestic creatures and did a fair amount of catching/relocating in the area I grew up in, Central FL.

I've been trying to methodically thnk things through and see if my goal is worthy or if I'm just subconciously using it as an excuse to keep them. If I didn't want to do the right thing I wouldn't have posted anything about it here.

A bit more background from some of the replies:

> > > "Unless NC law has changed (and it may have), last I checked it was unlawful to possess C. adamanteus in NC."

Based on what I found while researching this is that there is a quantity limit of 5 per native species. Since EDBs are native to eastern NC, they are included. This falls outside of the "Educator's" program, of which I am looking into but having a hard time finding info on. I should be able to qualify for the "Educator's" program after completing one more year of college.

> > > "If you can't afford a $125 EDB,..."

Money's not an issue. Well, it always is, but, I can afford to buy what I'm looking for. EDBs, antivenom, etc... No, I didn't get offended by this because I knew where you were coming from. The reason I mentioned it the way I did is because I am a very logical person. Why pay $30 for a pet-trade rheostat when you can buy a dimmer for $5. Like I said, even though I'm very logical on the financial aspect, I'm also very logical on the conservation aspect.

> > > "You might check your local herp society, colleges/universities or zoos to see who keeps A/V on hand..."

Here's the kicker; The only thing local to me is wooded acreage. There's a 20-bed hospital 20 miles away that I know doesn't stock antivenom. I'm not too sure I'd trust any of them to administer it if they did. Welcome to "No Man's Land."

I do have a great family physician, though. One that I know without a doubt would go above & beyond the call of duty to help in any way needed to get what I need.

I'm in a bit of a hurry at the moment but I'll try to take the time to respond to each one of you since you all personally took the tiime to try to help me out.

Thanks a bunch!

Ya'll have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I've actually been thinking for the last few years about starting a small-time conservation program for EDBs, breeding them & releasing into the wild, in proper, safe, areas, of course.

I realise your heart is in the right place here and I'm not trying to be rude, but you definately don't want to do this with captive bred animals from outside of the population, and those that have probably been exposed to pathogens in private collections etc. In fact, in most areas it is illegal to release captives without permit etc. This is usually left up to the zoos and wildlife agencies, as reintroduction projects are very hard to make successful.

I'll agree that some of the general trends about trying to release animals and maintain a 95% heterozygosity are rediculous for many of the species that are trying to be conserved. I see nothing wrong with private keepers trying to help in reintroduction efforts, as long as it is done properly. However, there isn't such a thing as far as I know as a successful small time reintroduction effort as it usually requires the cooperation of several agencies to secure habitat, make sure the habitat is going to be there for more than a few years, for enough people to produce enough animals that after the initial mortality there are enough alive to survive and reproduce, etc.

Hey there!
If I were to pursue my program idea it will be legit as far as proper procedures, authorities, etc... Heh, and I'm sure you're right about the red tape not being small-time. I also imagine that your thoughts on using CB would be a factor.

Eh, its just an idea, thought, I've had for awhile. I imagine it sounds stupid to some, if not most, but fortunately I don't allow myself to be bound by other people's opinions. It a good thing Bill Haast and many others like him didn't, either. (No, SnakesAndStuff, I'm not saying that you said any of that. Ha! ; )

The main theme, "EDB conservation," isn't stupid, I know, but some of my building, stepping, stones may need to be replaced with better ones. I may never pursue it with vigor, especially not anytime soon due to the load I'm already carrying. But if the good Lord's willing, I will have an EDB or two within the next few months.

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hmm ya this is all we need is snakes in a captive collection acquiring paro and being released into native populations and denning up. There is a reason that releasing captive animals into the wild is illegal and should only be done in conjunction with your local DNR/fish and wildlife
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Dan S.
Crotalus & Company
Venom-Center Your Complete Venomous Community
Wisconsin Reptile Community

I lived in NC until Sept 2005, and it is illegal to keep EDB's without a special permit, which they almost never give out. The keeping of 5 native species does not included EDB's as they are protected, along with Timbers, and most all native venomous except Copperheads and Cottonmouths. I believe you can keep 5 snakes that are native to NC before having to get a permit, which I believe is free, but you can't keep EDB's without a permit

Randy Ciuros

You're right on the permit for EDBs (and a few others). As for how hard it is to get one, I'll be finding out soon. I can only assume that they'd be less restrictive on CB imported from another state or what have you, versus the taken of wild.

Ain't but one way to find out. My snake room's almost ready to pass an inspection. Wish me luck!

Thanks for the tip!

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American