Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been thinking about how exactly I'm going to make my supers in 2 years or so. By then, I'm sure we'll know more about how to mix bloodlines to prevent deformities in the supers, but I'm considering crossing my BHB line Cinnies with a black pastel to really diversify the bloodline, but then I'll end up with others that are indistinguishable between cinnies or black pastels. I honestly don't even like black pastels, but I bet they'd make the supers look great. I have no desire to have a bunch of Cinny/Black Pastel crosses though. My other option is going with say, a Graziani line cinny, to at least mix cinny bloodlines. But I wonder if that will be enough to avoid the deformities. Anyone else pondered this or have physical experience of what would be the best idea to go with? Just something I've been thinking about that I thought might be interesting to discuss. Ryan.

Ryan, you would get supers from cinny to black, but you would not get the mutts that you don't want as the mutts (animals getting both genes would be supers) the other offspring would be blacks, cinnys or normals. There would be clear differences in the babies.
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Neil Golli
(813) 856 3408
info@gollireptiles.com
www.GolliReptiles.com

Thanks Neil. I always overlook that when I'm evaluating dominants. About a month ago I made the same mistake thinking a snake was a Mojave/Lesser cross. Someone reminded me that would make it a lucy. I guess that would definitely be a good option to go with then. I don't want my supers having that screwed up face or spine. I think adding a different form of the trait would be the best way to do it, rather than 2 actual cinnies. I can't seem to find any info on it being tried that way yet. Thanks again for the clarification.

I think there have been several breeders that have bred cinny to black pastel already with no problems. If my cinny female takes this year (keep your fingers crossed for me) she was bred by my black pastel male.

How often are breeders seeing the deformaties in the super? Has anyone been able to figure it out yet?
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Alice Cobb

All supers that I have seen have either a deformed nose, kinks or both.
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John Vandegrift

I thought black pastels have had the "bulbous" nose issue for awhile now.

I dont follow them that closely so I may be incorrect?
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jyohe is right, I agree....

Stop the madness!
Shut Africa DOWN!!!!
NO more Africa....NO more Africa.....NO more Africa.....!!!
Buy locally.......

What about a captive hatched cinny?
That would add new blood.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Hey Ryan,

Not a problem at all with crossing Black and Cinny’s, as a matter of fact that’s how I produce all my super cinny’s / super blacks. As for the deformities, I’ve probably produced more then anyone else because I’ve been able to breed a super cinny male to cinny’s and Blacks and I’ve never had one deformity. The noses do seem to look a bit longer then a normal Ball, but it’s not bulbous or deformed. I have seen that problem with other lines, but we have never seen any of those deformities in our line. I’m sure that other lines will have success too. Hope it helps to clarify a few things. Good luck this season! Brian (BHB)

myspace.com/bhbreptiles (just for fun people)
real website coming later this century!

Thanks a lot Brian. Can't get a better, more exact, answer than the one from the guy who originated the exact animals I'm working with. Now I just can't wait to be able to make the supers myself. Some people think they're too plain, but I think it's awesome that you can only get an all black ball from 1 source. By the way, I'm producing some killer offspring with a male from your line. Definitely the nicest Cinnies as far as blushing, flames and coloration. Take care. Good luck with whatever crazy, mad scientist stuff you have going on this season.

I just realized it would be nice to use a BHB Black Pastel to do crosses with, but I don't think I've ever seen a Black labeled as BHB line.

I do have a line of Blacks that we've brought in from africa several years ago. They are all really very similar to one another, but I guess for gene pool purposes it's nice to have diverse lines.
As for the Super not being as exciting, I think everyone has a different opinion, and that's what so cool about it. For me I love the super cinny's, they're one of my favorite Ball mutations. But I'm really excited to see some of the color crosses with them. They should be some of the best out there in my opinion. The Pied Super Cinny, and the Lavender Super Cinny might be the two coolest mutations to be produced. Of course we have to wait to see if they turn out like we would think they would, but a Black and white Ball or an all purple (lavender) Ball will be insane. Not to mention the Carmels, Ghost, Axanthics, etc... It'll be an exciting few years waiting on these gems. Have fun!!! Brian (BHB)

I think the all black snake is a far more elegant and sleek & sexy animal than the lucy is.

I have my projects I've been working with and really havent been thinking about adding new stuff (I try and keep things managable for my life and schedule these days), but following your cinny project the last few weeks and looking at the beautiful pictures of the supers has got me itching to start a cinny project myself.

Great job Ryan!

I've always wanted to be an inspiration to someone. Haha. I know exactly what you mean with keeping your collection manageable. I never like to have more than about 20 snakes total. Now that I'm breeding the cinnies, I'm about to have 40 snakes after they all hatch. And I'm thinking about all the different animals I want to produce down the road, I don't know how I'm ever gonna be able to stick to my quota. But, oh well. Guess I'll just have to spend more time cleaning and feeding. It really doesn't take all that much time. Between work, school and family though, it does become hard to squeeze in sometimes.

I decided to buy a male cinny back in '05 to be my main breeding focus, strictly because of them producing the supers. I have a soft spot for black/black and grey snakes. Thanks a lot for liking what's hatched so far. I have 4 more clucthes that won't start hatching until mid-July. I can't wait to see if they turn out as good. I don't see why they won't, because the ones that have come so far, take way more after the father than the mother. I'll be posting plenty of pics as they hatch. Oh, and so far I've gotten the 2 male cinnies that came from the first clutch to take thawed rat pups their first meal. The females haven't eaten yet, but they're still fat, so I think they'll come around soon when they really get hungry.

Don't you consider an elongated nose a deformity?
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John Vandegrift

I've noticed more than a few Mojaves with very small heads and kind of pointy noses. My own included. Genetics can basically do whatever they want, and you figure these are mutated genes we're playing with. I think some of the morphs just have their own little quirks that really aren't so attractive but if you want one trait, you have to accept the others that might come along with it.

don't you consider a snake that should be brown and black that is all yellow and white a deformity? Every morph, color or pattern is a deformity whether we like it or not. Some morphs come with scalation issues or bone structure differences (not kinks) but they are still bp's and they all rock. Nobody talks trash about the scalation problems with the super lesser's but bring up super cinny's and the noses are horrible. It's all a matter of trade-offs. To me, a solid black bp with a slightly longer nose is worth it, to others it's not. but that's their choice and they don't have to buy or breed for them.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

What exactly are the problem with the super lessers? This is the first time that I have heard anything about it. Thanks Melisa

No, I don't. Even among our "normal" ball pythons we have noticed differences in the size of the nose. Some are much shorter than the others, some a bit longer.

I also don't consider a dog a couple of inches taller than the AKC breed standards "deformed". And lets not even go down the path of differences in humans, especially since I'm not even 5' tall.

My concern is that some people see the word "deformity" without any further explanation and quickly draw their own conclusions, ones they may not have formed if they knew the problem was a slightly different nose. I'm going to try to be more careful in the future how I throw out the term "deformity" or "deformed" without providing more info.
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Alice Cobb