Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright all of you knowledgeable folks out there. A few months ago I purchased a Albino Southern Pine baby from a vendor at a show. She seemed in good shape and was eating regularly 2 then 3 pinkies. Despite all the regular feedings she really didn't seem to grow much and she always seemed kinda limp and weak. Well over the last few months she seems to be getting progressively worse. She typically only eats one small pinky in a sitting and struggles with that. She's definitely gotten frailer and lighter in weight. I've also noticed 3 nodules or bumps under her skin. I don't want this poor snake to die, I've liked pines for a long time and I can't own a northern in NJ, but I also don't want the snake to suffer either. I'm not aware of any good herp vets in the area either. Any thoughts would be much appriciated.

For reference. She is in a 20 long with aspen bedding and a small UTH. She's always had bad sheds, despite soakings and moistening her old bedding . I feel as though I've failed as a keeper and I've been keeping all my other snakes/lizards/cat quiet successfully over the years. Is it possible I just got a runt, or bad snake?

Thanks,
MRez

I am on my third albino southern pine.

My first one was a sub adult that was sold to me as looking very healthy, but then upon getting her home, she turned out to be sick. The breeder I bought her from fessed up and admitted it on the phone, but didn't compensate. She died shortly after.

The second one I owned sounds like yours. Never ate consistently, and he never grew. I did everything I could think of, and still, in the end, he had to be put down.

My third one is doing awesome and is just a perfect specimen!! She is eating and growing great!!!

Thru all of this, and from talking with other breeders, I think that, in the case of my second one, and from what yours sounds like, the snake just may have been born with internal problems and wasnt' meant to thrive and survive, no matter what we do. We both may have had runts. From all the discussions I have had about this, this is something that we could come up with, but at the same time, still try to do what it takes to get yours to thrive.

Here are my thoughts:

Being a baby southern that yours is, I would take her out of the 20 gallon long. That may be spooking her and she may feel that she is in too " open " of an area. My snow southern pine didn't eat regulary at first when I put her in a huge cage. I thought she would like it but then she let me know the opposite. After I put her in the size cage that she should have been in, in terms of her size, she did great and although every now and then would refuse a meal, she still did very well and much better. Take her out and put her in something like a shoebox or smaller sweaterbox. Then, make sure she has a good hidebox or two. All of this may make her feel more secure and secluded. Then, I would not use the UTH, in case it makes her too hot. I keep my southerns at 80-82. Also, fill her water up a tad bit more. Southerns, since most I believe are from FL, may like it a tad more humid. Not much though but still, try it.

Try this and leave her alone for at least 3-4 days and then try feeding her. Try a small fuzzy, as that is the size she may be needing to eat at the time.

Keep us posted!!!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

I start my Southern Babies on fuzzies. I think Pinkies are too insignifigant of a nutritional food source for Pines. This may explain the weakened state. Not enough calcium for aid in strengthening bones. This is just a guess. However I'd like to know how long the snake is and if you can post a pic please do. It is never a bad idea to try and achieve a gradient with different extremes.........one side hot the other side cool. The funny thing about Pits is as adults they seem indestructible but as babies they go through a bit of a.........well fragile is an exageration but they need a few good meals to get them going, and also need to not be overfed. Regurgitation seems especially harsh on young Pits. Good luck, Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

The Snake is probably around 10 inches long. She may have been 8 or so when we got her 5 or 6 months ago. She ate like a champ in the first few months. Never had a problem with her. But I don;t think I could give her fuzzies because they may be to much for her to get down. She really seems to struggle with her food. She's got plenty of hides in the 20 long. I'm considering putting a heat bulb, a 60 watt over the warm spot. My basement that she is in is a bit cooler then the rest of the house. I will try and get pictures up later tonight. BUt like i said, this paticular snake is very weak and frail.

~M

I have never seen an 8 inch Pine? Something doesn't seem right? Can you please post a pic?
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

As a continuation of this disscussion, I snapped a bunch of what i hope to be diagnostic pics. I was mistaken she's not 8 inches probably more around 12ish, but she still seems extremely weak...has difficulty right herself or moving out of my hands etc.

These are pictures of her as of last night.

Pictures of the hard tissue abnormality along her sides.

Pictures of those hard bumps I mentioned.

And finally a belly shot. Tom, Discern, and anyone else, what do you think? These hard spots had shown up a few months before she reduced her eating habits. As always, any help is much appriciated.

Well, my friend, I will be honest and I will say that she does not look good at all. IMO, she may not make it much longer, according to what you have described.

When I first saw her sides, I immediately thought of what they looked like skin flaps. She may be severly dehydrated? Have you seen her drink any? If not, I would let her soak and drink in a shallow water dish she can fit in, just to get some fluids in her. This is if she is dehydrated and something worth trying.

Those bumps could be tumors.

Is there any vets around at all you could take her to?

She also kinda looks hybridish but again, I could be wrong. At first glance, she reminds me of albino southern X northerns that I have seen before. This is all speculation though.

In all, she seems that she is not doing good. I am sure you have done all you can for her, and I wish that I could suggest some more things to do. The only thing I could think of, like I said before, would be to:

1. Put her in a smaller cage.
2. Make sure she is warm, especially due to her condition.
3. Rehydrate her as much as she will allow, if she has not been drinking.
4. Try feeding her a small fuzzy. If she did allow herself to eat small fuzzies, perhaps the extra nutrition vs. pinkies would do some good.

Keep us posted. If anyone else has anything to add, please do so.
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Genesis 1:1

She is in rough shape. I agree that hydration may be a problem. Now this is only a guess but the bumps could be fat deposits from her diet. Can't really be sure, if it were taking rat pinks that would make me lean more towards fat and not enough nutrition but the bottom line is it simply may never have been a good snake since it came out of the egg?
It does happen. Sometimes some look OK and as they age their symptoms appear and they deteriorate.
If it were mine. I'd soak her in water barely warm to the touch, just not cold. I'd also try and maintain a mildly warm water temp for the snake overnight. She won't like this at all but if she does have hard urates or excrement cemented in her she may pass some........if you can feel anything moving when you apply pressure you may want to gently massage it to see if you can help her pass it but do not force anything.Attempt to soak her when you have time to watch her. You will want to see if she drinks a lot, or if she passes anything. Or if she does not drink..... that is also a symptom meaning she may be to too far gone.
I always check the cloacas of my snakes for crust, and make sure they're not "sealed" with anything. In the pics [at a glance] she looks kind of plump, yet she has folds in the skin? That is something i have never seen? If you have more reptiles, I'd keep that Pine in another room. I can't think of much else to try but a soak and a massage. If any other details come to mind please post them. I have seen many Pits go down and perish, but i have also seen a lot of snakes recover and thrive, so the effort is worth your time, and I am glad you came on here looking for help. We'll help the best we can. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

could those bumps be broken ribs?? Was she accidently squished some how?? Does anyone else have access to your snakes?? Young children can squeeze to hard when a snake starts to wiggle. Jack

That's a very good observation! Could very well be
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

AS far as I know she was never mishandled. I was always very careful with her, and thank god, but I don;t have any small kids. I'veg ot h er downstairs now with a bit more heat on her..a shoebox, a water dish and a fuzzie...so we'll see. But my hopes at this point arn't that high. I should just be happy with my girlfriends albino striped pac gopher.

~M

as long as it is still eating on its own it should be alright of make sure you have warm spot cool side if the lumps are in stomach try a warm soak. and you can have northerns in n.j. you have to send in a receipt to show they were c.b. and you can have them i have 8 on a permit from fish and game

I actually work the DEP, right under the fish and game folk. They were very..touchy about the issue when I brought it up with them. I'd love a nice high white northern in my collection, especially one thats realtivly calm but I'm not sure its going to happen.

You live in NJ? Know any good herping locales in Ocean?

As for my snake. Getting down one small pink a week is just not enough, for a while she was taking down 2-3 good chuncky pinks a week. Thats what got me concerned at first was her feeding slowed down.

~M

What are the temps on the warm and cool side? How are you measuring the temps?

Have you done fecal floats?

I had a cal king that was a fairly poor feeder, only taking prey too small for her. Once she took appropriate sized prey and regurgitated. She was not growing or gaining weight.

Fecal float showed snake hookworm eggs. She was treated for it, took one meal, and then stopped eating. It was autumn - and even though my vet wanted me to keep her warm over winter, since she wasn't feeding - I let her brumate.

Spring came, and she actually grew during brumation - and fed like a pro. Fecal float now comes up clean, she has a healthy weight, and is a very good feeder.
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