Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know this forum is for purist...well mainly for "purist" but has anyone seen the ball carpet hybrid in the "hybrid discussion" section...this is really interesting. We now know the genus "Python" can be successfully bred with other Python species, Moriela (and so probably also with Liasis, since Liasis has been bred with Moriela) and Aspidites...anyone else seeing the taxonomic implications if the young are fertile?

If you mean by Taxonomic implications as far as the relationship between the two different species...Meaning they could be more related than originally thought?? Or Implications to the hobby of Herpetoculture? I thought I had heard recently that someone had also done a BurmesexBall hybrid, Wasn't there also a WomaxBall hybrid as well? Then there is CarpetxMacklots, I believe there was a ScrubxCarpet done as well...What I find interesting is that there seems to be more Hybridizing in the Python world than in any other part of Herpetoculture...or is that just me??? You would think that the Boa world would be trying simular things...like EpicratesxBoaConstrictor...or EunectesxBoaConstricor...I know there has been Tree Boa Hybrids or Intergrades..Or in the Lizard world...Why couldn't African Fattails and Leopard geckos hybridize? I know they have done it with Crested Geckos and Chahouas...Some people might say it can be done but should it? then others say if it can be done they why not?....

Hybridizing and crossing is a touchy subject...and tends to bring out very strong views on either side..kinda like politics..lol, Some people have no problem with it, Some do...I don't see the extreme hybrids being as much of a problem as some of the intergrades...Such as Jag cross sibs...the higher percentage of the cross the more the sibs will look like the species the jag is being bred too...Resulting...in ten years we will have many intergrades that look like pure species...Example is the Diamond Pythons, many of the 88% Diamond crosses (Diamond Pythons x Coastal or Jungle) look pretty darn close to real Diamonds, or in the near future the 88% Irian Jaya Jag Sibs or 88% Bredli Jag Sibs, the results of the nonjag sibs will look very simular to pure species, and those are all fertile, so in ten years the world of Morelia will be difficult to tell what is pure or what isn't...That to me has worse implications on taxonomy in herpetoculture than extreme Hybrids like a BallxCarpet hybrid being fertile...

But if your talking about restructuring the taxonomic status of some pythons...thats something different...could it be looked at as herpetoculturists being like little scientists? Its been proven that tomato plants can be hybridized with tobacco plants...but in nature would that happen?? Same with the Python Hybrids, would in nature a Ball Python breed with an Irian Jaya Carpet Python? Taxonomically would that pairing mean anything in nature?

Not sure if any of that made any scense...I havn't had much coffee this mourning...and I think I even lost myself...lol, Anyway..its a good topic to discuss..What do you think?
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I was speaking more in line with the implications of the genetic relationships...I mean I am also "touchy" about the "intergration" issue...For example Argentine Boas-a cites I subspecies is now be indiscriminately crossed with hypo and albino imperator...it is now a lot harder to find pure Argentines, even ten years ago there seemed to be a lot more offered for sale...the future looked good for this endagered species in captivity, but now alas many bloodlines are so "polluted" that wonder if there will be any Argentines availiable in the next 10 years.

The same sad story could also be argued about Indian and Sri Lankan Pythons which have been greatly hybridized by Burms...but this I blame more so on the federal goverment regulations over interstate commerce of endangered species (even captive born), which ironically seems to be applied with some Cites I animals (Indians) but not others (Argentines).

This extreme Hybrid-Ball Python X Carpet Python may have a limited novelty market-which is fine with me, but the greater implications are in the further taxonomic research into boid taxon relationships. I am looking forward to producing a few carpet balls in the future and have been working to do so for a while, I wanted to do this just to see if it could be done, now I want to do this because I know it can be done. I want to see how the colors develope, the adult size and sexual viability as well as see what F2 offspring would look like.

As for tabacco and tomatoes...nicotene in my salad sounds pretty gnarly j/k. I think that the level of geneitc manipulation in such a hybrid is rather more signifigant than placing a male of a species with the female of another producing viable offspring...a voluntary hybridization if you will. Perhaps the genetic relationships of Boids, Colubrids and reptiles in general is closer than it is with Mammals, or perhaps because of some lower level of evolution the genetric relationships plays a lesser role, or perhaps the ability to hybridise in reptiles is indeed an adaptation that could be useful in insular populations or changing environments...a genetic advantage allowing some part of the species to go on when over specialization could lead to extinction.

Sorry for all the typos...was in a hurrry.

The concept that only animals of the same species (or pick your taxonomic unit) can produce fertile offspring is outdated. Despite what you read on the forums.

I don't care what who breeds to what....
but Balls and Carpets producing fertile offspring has little if any implications regarding ancestoral relationships.

Rock on.
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Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com