Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Peoples keep asking me why I say this, well its not just a question of temper, size or dentition, the answer is more about all of these combined.

This is a skull of an adult 4.5feet nil monitor, given the choice id rather be bitten by such animal then any other species of same size, looking at the dentition should give you an idea why. Sure African monitors have enormous jaw pressure, they can crush bones, I don’t know if they can crush finger bones but they sure can do damage, no where near the damage a same size water can do.

But theirs more then bite damage, nil’s in particular have been pledged with a bad reputation as being aggressive, they are not aggressive but rather defensive, witch is a good thing as it teaches about respect, the body language of a nil is easy to read for any keeper regardless of expertise, you know when the lizards want nothing to do with you, this is invaluable communication between keeper and kept unequalled with other species, as they grow to adulthood and learn to trust there keeper, this language is by then engraved in your memory and will protect you from a possible future accident with your captive, this cant be said of other species witch do the opposite, they allow close contact when baby but become dominant as adults, often unpredictable (many salvator do this)

I am not saying go out and get an African monitor, no!
But if you have one already, be a proud owner, this is not a disposable reptile, it’s a unique creature that deserves all the best you can offer, and will reword you later, more then any species I know.

I love English, it use to take me a bazillion words to say nothing, now I can do this in one post, what an improvement.

After reading your post i'd have "to take your word for it" as far as the jaw strength not being able to crush finger bones. Would not want to put that one to the test, hahahaha. I had a six foot nile that had a wonderful temperment and did not mind being held.I raised her from a hatchling and had her for eight years before i was forced to sell her. It's good to hear positive things about niles since most people only talk about how aggressive the are.
Best to you, Chris

The good news is by the time they are adults, they lost most of there ill temperament, at this point a keeper is most likely to get a warning bite, these have no consequence and usually don’t brake the skin, iv hade adults hold on to my hand more then 30 seconds, enough time to get me worry. I can imagine this happening with a croc or water, heck even a Doreanus would leave gashes.

Of course an agree nil would be a hole different story, first it will give ample warning, if one so stupid enough to persist annoying, then the worst possible bite would be a trashing bite witch I believe will tear off skin or digits, monitors can do a death role, but as in crocodilians they only do so for feeding, a fighting animal stays on its feet mostly, good thing for us.

An other good this is about the laws of physics, as you can see these are far from hyenas jaws, they don’t have the muscle mass either, so theirs only so much pressure they can exert, pulling would hurt but holding the neck and pushing your hand farther inn will cause the lizard to let go, as with any carnivorous animals, its physical.
Iv only tried this with gloves for testing my theories, don’t do this unless your in trouble and have no alternative. Any 7 foot monitor will have you in tears taking your will power to do this away from you. It would work with me but maybe not with you?

This post reminded me of something. I am not trying to argue at all. Years ago my friend had an albigularis, around 3-1/2 feet. It was on the floor next to me and as I reached over to touch its neck, It turned it's head and clampped down on my thumb. It gave no warning, defensive behavior or otherwise. It had never bitten my friend and generally tolerated handling. The thing held my thumb for 10 minutes or so. It got me with its back molars. Each time I moved it clampped down harder untill it actually broke the bone at the tip of my thumb. Even though the back teeth were blunt, it bit through my thumb nail and the skin and flesh on the bottom of my thumb, to the bone. Who knows why the monitor did this. He simply turned his head, grabbed my thumb and clampped down. This incident is likely an exception to the rule.

Roger

Ouch! The end of a digit is the worst pain wise.

However at 3. ½ TL this animal was not mature yet, its dentition was still a little more pointed then the animal pictured, this said I still think you’d have suffered the same wound and pain in any case.

As to why the animal bite you is a far more interesting question, first he was out of its environment, next with a stranger, you’re a stranger if you haven’t raised this animal, therefore even if it knows you and you do handle it often, nevertheless you are not its regular keeper.

Know one really can say how an animal will react to any given situation, theirs simply to many variables, the 2 options iv provided are usually the main reasons why accidents happen, of course we are talking about an accident aren’t we? Cause as you may know most bits happen when an animal is disrespected (offended) or teased with foods.

Many bites iv seen or heard about from keepers happened when they handled foods before the monitor, this is notorious with snake keepers.

Also one must never be conciliant even with the most trustworthy monitors, when my kids where younger id allow them one at a time to sit on the largest ornatus you’d even see (not your typical obese salvator) but this under extreme care, I was always within reach to stop any incident before it happens, you must learn to read behaviour, that’s why I say nil’s are good teachers, they show defensive behaviours strait out of the egg, when you raise a nil to adulthood, its like you graduated from varanids behaviour academy.

Working with animals we must always have some safety tool at hand, your friend should of have something to wedge his monitors jaws, at least to prevent it from applying more pressure on your thumb.

Here's an old picture (sorry it's a bit blurry it's a pic of an old polaroid)of my ornate nile monitor from 1982. I still miss her she was a joy to work with.
Best to you, Chris

Its blurry alright, but still I can tell its a female, a pretty large one too, and I can see it has a healthy weight, not the typical fat blob we usually see.

Your picture reminds me of a discussion I was having on a photography forum, it’s the moment you capture that matters, the image quality only maters to other peoples viewing as they don’t have the imprinted memory of that moment.

Thanks for sharing

Believe me when I say, and I am a carpenter so I have smashed the skin right off my fingers a few times wit hammers, I would rather smash my thumb full swing with a hammer than be bitten like that again. Actually we tried to pry it's jaws with a wooden paddle to no avail. I think what you said about the monitor not being familliar with me is probably the answer, as I did not handle any food items prior to the incident.

It's nice to hear someone with some praise for niles for a change. I have raised two from very small and have really enjoyed them. They have taught me a whole lot about when to and when not to handle them. Usually they tell me not to, ha ha ha. Now and then I inspect them for injuries since they are in a large enclosure with lots of stuff to climb, dig and swim in. I wait untill they are in the water and nice and cool first.

Roger

Oh I believe you about the pain, id rather be bitten anywhere then the tip of a digit.

You know about the nil’s, I don’t really praise them nor do I advise peoples to get one, however I feel it’s a mistake to give them a bad reputation as we often do. Look at any publication sins the early 80s, all are saying the same thing about the nature of these lizards. I am surprised that we still have so little understanding of this specie, its perhaps the best teaching monitor.

Every time someone says they are bad, the myth if passed on again, the new keeper who just got out of the shop with this cute yellow and black baby, will come to this forum to learn more and be totally discouraged by our comments, its hard for someone to like something when every one says negative. Many times these comments lead to a lost of interest, then the monitor pays the high price. However if we talk a little more about the unique nature of this amazing monitor, then a keeper might keep interest long enough for him and the monitor to build a solid relation, a relation that for the most part in long term keepers, very satisfactory.

Ps, can you describe the after bite, Any sequel?

Hi Jobi,

I knew the thumb broke when I felt it sort of pop. It swelled up like a balloon. As soon as the critter let go I cleaned it really good. I did not go to the doctor right away, I think I waited a couple days. When I did go I told them I beat my finger with a hammer. The doctor said it looked like some sort of bite, ha ha ha. He wanted to put a cast on my thumb that sort of extended down just past my wrist. I did'nt go for that since the cast would have inhibited my work. The next two weeks at work were awful. I did learn not to make assumptions about what monitors will do.

I thouroughly enjoy my niles. They don't do well with a lot of mucking around. I have not imposed myself on them in quite a while, so they are warming up to me pretty well. It seems as if I do things on their terms they warm up to me somewhat. They will come out now when I enter the room to see if I have food.
My lack of understanding and experience have made it hard for them to trust me, but now that I have straightened out some husbandry issues and learned a bit more about how to read them.

Roger

I will be slammed for this, but hey I can it (bring it on!)

I always do this when I get a new pair, that’s not how I keep my monitors, but until they lose fear of me and feed from my hand this is how I keep all monitors that enters my collection.

Bare naked cage with one branch, one water bowl and not enough substrate to hide, yes this is terrible I agree.
However its my personal choice, I could provide all the bells and weasels from the start, but then id be watching an empty cage for months, with some Doreanus, prasinus and jobiensis the empty cage syndrome can last years, however when you start them this way, they lose fear of you within a few weeks, even the worst cases will feed from tongs before week number 3, this new pair of nil’s from last week already take food off my fingers, they will be housed in an other cage with more furnishings soon, but not yet.

I do not try to touch them, I change water at night when they sleep, I take grate care not to stress them when I enter the room for feeding. They have heat options and the cage is well hydrated, I can guaranty they will climb up my arm before summers over.

Once they have no more fear of me, they start seeing me as a provider, then they become bold and somewhat dangerous until adult.

Maybe this method is cruel? But I prefer this to having a monitor that stresses out at the very sight of me months on end, this chronic stress is worst them what I put them thru at first.
Monitors that have no fear of me do much better, they perform behaviours I wouldn’t see otherwise, these behaviours are the reason of my interest in them, if I was to watch empty cages day inn day out, id find something more interesting to keep.

I often sale animals that I hand feed every day, once in new homes, owners complain about them being hidden constantly or running up the walls when they see them, if I get such animals back they start hand feeding again within a few days, so I don’t know what to say to these keepers, other then apologise?
maybe you want to try this?

Jobi, I agree with your begining set-ups being sparten. For some reason when acclimating a new animal the less "bells and whistles" the better. It's tempting to go all out or for a "natural look" but for some reason that always seems to not work out. cheers,zak.

Jobi, I agree with your begining set-ups being sparten. For some reason when acclimating a new animal the less "bells and whistles" the better. It's tempting to go all out or for a "natural look" but for some reason that always seems to not work out. cheers,zak.

Good for you if you got this right, the plesure is yours!lol

It doesn’t matter witch specie I work with, shy monitors are not fun until they settled down, after just one week these went from frantic to allowing hand feeding, when I walk in my room and see them sitting on there branch looking at me with curiosity (not wariness) something must be right?

This female was the most nervous of the pair, she now waits at the door for crickets, she actually feeds from the can before I dump them in the cage, not bad for a fresh import.

I do this with all species and get the same results, I don’t post this to brag, hell if I care! But because I find it sad when I read about others not enjoying interactions with there monitors. They are food driven, you can have them do anything for food, just let them know you’re the source.

Well, sport, if anyone does any slammin' they'll have to slam us both.

I've always done the same thing with my snakes, no hides until I see they're comfortable with my presence. Most of the time they don't use them when I do finally give 'em one.

I did the same thing with my nile when I got it 1 year ago. It has a hide now & it uses it, but not to get away from me. I've had my sav for almost 6 months and I just recently gave it a hide. There again, it uses it, but it never bolts inside the hide when it sees me, it stays out in the open and is starting to come to me.

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

This whole thing is very funny since I got my niles over a year ago and had the in cages in my living room with shallow substrate and a full view of everything in the room. I have 2 children, 3 dogs, 2 cats and of course my wife, who stays home. So needless to say there was tons of activity around the cages. The niles both adjusted very quickly, and always came out at feeding time. They didn't flinch a bit at the kids or the cats and dogs, however at the time had no computer so I was handling them often since thats what I had always done. They would only flee at the sight of myself. One of the niles even made friends with my pittbull. The dog would sit and stare at the nile for hours. The monitor often came to the door of the cage when the dog presented herself.

Ha! Ha! Well, we can at least keep each other company if we get thrown into the doghouse.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Yap the same happens in animal shops where theirs plenty of passer-by, they get use to the commotion quickly, the problem is when there’s not enough commotion, then they dart to the nearest hide at first sight, in my case sins I am alone and only ½h a day in the reptile room, if my animals don’t get use to my presence, I never get to see them. Many keepers have a similar experience then mine. Don’t forget some species or even locals are a lot more timid, I heard a funny thing tonight about a guy with a pair of prasinus who after 12 months still cant see them and don’t know if both are feeding well, that’s crazy.

How are your nil’s today? Do they come to you or do you have to grab them? These are 2 very deferent things, the first is about submission, the second about trust. It’s a personal choice but I don’t want any submissive relations with any animals. It’s not fun as it prohibits normal behaviours.

I understand you find all this funny, I use to see the same as you 20 years ago, I believed the keeper must be the dominant one, however this is a one way affair and soon we find this type of relation limited.

I cant handle most of my captives, however most will follow me around and some will climb on me, all will mate and do just about anything monitors do right in front of me, this was my objective with them. I never wanted a lap lizard to watch TV, for this I have a dog and a cat, even then they don’t do this stuff, I guess they have more interesting things to do?

While we're still on the subject of african monitors, here's another old picture i found of my B.T. His name was radar. He got the name from a friend of mine who would hide quail eggs in radar's cage and then see how long it would take him to find them, usually they would be found and eaten in a matter of minutes.Like i said it's an old polaroid piture so its not that clear. Hope you like it.( thats a rabbit in his mouth)
Chris

Jobi, your way sounds better then man handling them. My sav got "used" to the out of enclosure surroundings pretty quick. Now he will hang out in the open even though there are 6 dogs and a cat stampeeding through the house. But savs are no where near as shy as other species.
-----
Shannon in Reno
1 savannah monitor (Pombe-means "beer" in Swahili)
6 dogs
1 cat
36 rats
40 mice
54 chickens
3 beardies
1 black rat snake
~1000 hissers
1 giant milipede