Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I crossed my albino bull with my albino Applegate San Diego gopher. Does anyone know if the albino is allelic? Anyone cross these before?
thanks

...the PS was a continuation of a reply to a thread that apparently was deleted while I was composing this post so the post was floating by itself and inaccessible until a new thread was started at which time it tacked onto that thread.

Just though I'd explain why there was a post which looked like a reply but which was totally unrelated.

Sort of amusing that it happened though, I mean what are the odds lol.

Sorry for any confusion,

Sean.

Why on earth you do this cross? Is it because you have a male Gopher and female Bull?
Pit hybrids are often less attractive than the pure breds and are shunned by most. All they do is cause confusion, as there has not really been anything dramatically different looking about the crosses.
It could just be me, but I don't see the point in making Hybrids if they look similar to pure snakes. I like Hybrids that are dramaticly different and easily spotted by those who are not even familiar with them.
It's crosses like this particular one that get people angry with us Hybrid likers, and yes I do like them and breed them, but as mentioned.......if chances are it will look very similar to a pure bred snake why bother?
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

not to mention it will probally be mean as heII
adam
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hybrid breeders association
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.3 ghost corns
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 childrens python
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 albino banded cal king
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo

why do you think it would be mean? Are bullsnakes extremely mean or something?

I haven't done anything with bulls or pines but I've handled tons of gophers(mostly pacific) and never even been tagged by one.

Not trying to be argumentative but not sure where the previous comment was coming from.

Sean.

The reason for the cross was that my male albino applegate went down so I was forced to use a bull as a substitute. I wanted new blood and also just to come out with something a little different. Nothing against locale guys or line breeders, I just think PETS, which is what I sell my babies as, shouldn't have to all be the same. For example, I encourage all my friends to buy mutts from the pound, they are UNIQUE, usually have less health problems to worry about, and it saves a dog from being put down.
I am not in this hobby to sell to other breeders, or to create line bred animals similar to everyone elses. I am in it because I like snakes, and I like providing people with pets. I want to produce something because I thought of it, not because someone else told me they wanted it. If I was breeding for someone else's desires, it would be a job, not a hobby.
Don't mean to offend anyone, just wondering if the cross had been done and if the albino is allelic.
And for the record, I own about 20 or so pits, and they are ALL super friendly.

No offense taken, after all I like Hybrids. I just don't think that cross was a good idea but to each his own. I would have guessed if you have 20 Pits you'd have thought that most people that like Pits are not into Pit crosses?
I am curious to see pics though good luck Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

i didnt mean to offend anyone but in my limited experience with bull is that they can be aggressive and with the size and strength between a bull and a gopher i just see the possibility of a big strong and possibly mean snake. i myself just wouldnt want to take the chance with that particuliar cross
adam
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hybrid breeders association
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.3 ghost corns
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 childrens python
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 albino banded cal king
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo

No worries

I wasn't upset was just confused at which you had run into mean snakes with. As I said I have had nothing but great interactions with gophers so I was guessing it wasn't them but was unsure. Also I have no experience to speak of with bulls or pines so I couldn't say anything personally about them but from what others have said it sounds like most bulls are cuddly also.

Sean.

before anyone mentions the "pit" people all have this opinion, I would have to say I have NEVER seen a hybrid worth even looking at that carried Pituophis genes. If you can't make something that not only looks different than either parent form or that comes even comes even close to the beauty of the snakes pure form, why bother ? I see a lot of hybrids I like that are AWESOME in appearance. I keep a pretty good amount of different snakes. ( Pythons, Boas, and colubrids ). I keep both Northern Pines, Black Pines, and Cape Gopher snakes and would never even consider mixing their genres together. You would not get even close to either's beauty in the pure form. This just my opinion, I think your results would be less than desirable to even yourself, in other words, they will look like crap. Although I do think you should do what you want, but also believe at the same time you should weigh other people's opinion.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

allelic, sorry about not answering your question. Not sure, I do know a way to find out. So do you, even though I do not think this is going to make a "hybrid" that is nicer than either parent form, I would be certainly interested in knowing if the genes are compatible. So if you succeed, please post the results. Sorry about deviating from your original question with my opinions. I was being rude and shortsighted.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

..This one is not my cup of tea but I could see other people really liking it and it is definitely distinct(although not alien strength distinct) from the parent species. And is the only pit cross I've seen other then integrades between types of gophers.

It's a natural integrade between gopher and cal king.

This is not my picture and I would not post except the original site is down until sometime next month.

Original photo: Brian Hubbs
Site Gallery by: Scott Waters & John Stephenson
Hosting site: www.snakeguys.com

Gopher x cal king (found in Yolo County)

head reminds me of a milk snake. Thanks for posting.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

that one is OK by my standards, it's the ones involving pit to pit intergrades and hybrids that I do not like. Make's ID'ing very difficult and also I would hate to see any polluting of let us say the Louisiana Pine snakes limited genetic diversity & integrity. It is a "sin" when their lineage is compromised.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

looking at lol. In case I didn't mention this, I am some times hypocritical. lol, still nay, on any pit to pit hybrids/intergrades.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

to all who have given their opinions. I am glad to have gotten such a response. I will post some pics of them when (I hope) they hatch.

head shaking... so bateaters are COOL crossing python ssp.is AWESOME!!! but crossing pituophis ssp. is not whatever dude,,, i say to the OP go for it good luck and it will be cool to know if the 2 amels are allelic. here are some homemade pits for ya'll,,,,,,,,thomas davis
n.pineXbull

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Why because I do not think pit hybrids look good, your pine/bull looks like a pile of dung compared to a full blooded pine or bull, bat eaters look better than both those pythons put together, I am sorry you had to condensed to my lower aptitude, have a nice day and go intercourse yourself.

It never ceases to amaze me how someone cannot understand a simple statement and or opinion. Did I say not to do the mix ? Well without me re-reading my post I did say if that's what he wants to do, then do it, and if you do please let me know if the strains of albinism are compatible.

Did I mention what your Pine/Bull mix looks like ?

I have one just like it here....

oh yeah here it is.....

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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

full blooded pine or bull roflmao like they are seperate species??? how do you think p.m.ruthveni, kankakee bulls are another good example evolved??? could it possibly be its where p.m.m. and p.m.sayi converged?
i dont understand how anyone could say ANY living snake looks like a pile of feces! but hey thats just mei love'um ALL!!! i know alot of people who feel the same way you do about my pit crosses about bateaters. what amazes me is how hybridizers seem to only like or agree with certain crosses namely ones they are working with. i wish you the best of luck,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

species in the genus Pituophis. Get an education before you start pondering anything past wiping your ass. Evolutionary Biology may be to much for you. When you are done restructuring the branches of the Zoological Nomenclature involving Pituophis let me know. Thanks.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

insults huh? WOW im SOOOO impressed no pineybulls for you(thats a joke frank) hahahaha lighten up dude lifes to short. im 40 and snakes have been apart of my life forever and always will be. i have a good understanding of taxa and you are just splitting hairs.
i guess this quote from you ""They are creating animals with compromised genetic diversity. While people that hybridize are creating animals with compromised genetic integrity."" doesnt apply to pituophis

i really do wish you the best of luck frank,,,,,thomas davis

heres a true northern for you produced by soderberg

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I liked, does not that involve some Pit genes ? Oh yeah, it doesn't look like any other species of Lampropeltis or Pituophis. I may want my lines genetic integrity to not be compromised, I wouldn't want to inadvertently mix any genes from some hybrid you created then somewhere along the line some poor person thinks they got one specie, when indeed they got 2 instead. I feel that about any type of snake, not just the ones I work with as you stated. BTW I can personally guarantee my Northern's have no other Pit genes in their lineage. So you may start arguing at the wall.

Northern's are the nominate form genetically, according to most literature. So I do understand what you where trying to say about sayi. But your trying to measure, to an ideal, not proven, that occurred who knows when, in the past.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

quote frank""BTW I can personally guarantee my Northern's have no other Pit genes in their lineage. So you may start arguing at the wall.""end quote...

thats great frank so can i !!! see i have true lines of both northerns and bulls and for fun i have the crosses(im actually excited about f2's next year,hopefully). no arguing here... you see a huge problem w/certain crosses, i see a fun unique animal in ANY cross/hybrid/intergrade thats all, and we obviously have different views on how certain ssp. evolved within their respective genus'. also ftr i always honestly represent my lines,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I really do not have a problem with your approach, unfortunately, other people may misrepresent them, I know this goes on with the Louisiana pine, I live in New Jersey and I have to say we have THE NICEST Black and White Northern's with growth to over 6 feet not being uncommon, all my snakes including the pines are on my permit, the last thing I would want is any southern pine blood in these snakes in captivity or in the wild, the only hybrids I do not like are ones that are tough to identify, in your hands, all is good, in others I am not so sure, I have intergraded black/yellow/everglades rats, so as I stated earlier I am somewhat of a hypocrite, I did write that BTW.

For example look at this snake....mutt...I liked it as much as you like what your doing, as long as it's a "known" event I see zero problems with it.

Black/Yellow/Everglades X Everglades =

Sorry I am sometimes an ass!

Blotchless female Everglades ratsnake.....

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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I will be breeding this snake into my leucistic Texas rat snake line....Lavender Texas Ratsnake....direct idea came from a study on color mutations in obsoleta complex..

Genetics of color mutations in the snake, Elaphe obsoleta

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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

dwight good, that's also where I got the blotchless everglades rats.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

wow thats cool dwight actually has some of my pineybulls(we traded some stuff) he really does create some really nice crosses and is a super nice guy. also cool w/the Tx.obseleta they are very common here i have seen them as big as any pine 7ft.plus, i like the rat cross there as well its interesting how much the one from that pic looks like a corn(wonder how many are in corn lines?),im a lumper and as such really dont see the bigdeal in some of these crosses even if the escape,or release scenario happened nature would quickly eliminate it. and as far as captive snakes go to&in nature they are DEAD anyway. SO ...
imho crosses should always be represented correctly for people that want true lines unfortunately thats not always done. no hard feelings,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

pure lines and hybrid lines, one can not exist without the other, to be honest If I really thought mixing my black pines to my northern's would make a better looking animal, I WOULD mix them. Dwight Good is a very kewl dude. I loved his black rat snakes, they where super kewl, should have gotten some from him when the getting was good.

Another Dwight good snake that I bought several years ago....Texas Rat snake, It escaped , never saw it again. I caught a yellow rat snake 5 years after it got out. We did have mice BTW lol. I caught him on my 21st birthday going out a cellar window, I was shocked to say the least. Once again sorry I was a pig headed assmaster.

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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

im sorry but as a lumper i dont buy into p.m.lodingi as a valid ssp. imho they are just melanistic variants of northerns so crossing the 2 would be fairly predictable some would have more melanin some wouldnt but it wouldnt make just the saddles more black. like w/obseleta cross a tx.rat w/a blackrat...samething
now the what you call "pileoffeces" pit crosses i did, i did to see if my theory was correct about p.m.ruthveni which btw they were/are.
the problem i have w/splitters is some variants are reffered to by some as their own ssp. and to cross them is evil when nothing more could be further from the truth imho a genus cant "hybridize" within itself, intergradation happens its how imho the ssp.came to be. alot of folks dissagree with that. to them i say "whatever" to each his/her own. i also say have fun snakes removed from the wild are DEAD to nature. keeping natural lines may be somes cupOtea but sooner or later they must realize there really is no point other than ones preferance which is admirable,but really...thats all it is ones preferance imho.
im also amazed at the paranoia that runs rampant w/the splitters like natural lines will be lost forever...forever gone,ruined,tainted its just silly imho take a true hybrid cross of genus' like cornXking breed the resulting offspring to either parent genus and guess what after a few generations one is pushed out completely it doesnt magically showup generations later its gone and about the piss&beer scenario living animals are not liquid and to suggest such shows their mentality,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"guess what after a few generations one is pushed out completely it doesn't magically showup generations later its gone"

I am still not a lumper, well hummm, I may have said on this forum BTW, "a snake make be just that... a snake..."

Stuck in the middle by admission, with various opinions that seem to contradict themselves, also admitted, opinions sometimes interfere with the perception of someone's intelligence, except I know I have a completely contradictory opinion when it comes to hybrids/intergrades, IMO, I am sometimes not worth arguing with, also by admission in my posts on this particular forum.

You may find this hard to believe, I am not stupid, I am however sometimes ignorant, such as what I called your pine/bulls, as you said and I actually agree, all snakes are indeed beautiful in their own right.

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't feed them to my Kingsnakes.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Than this 100% northern pine of mine.....NOT , how could I be so shortsighted. My northern's are not very black and white, maybe if I mix with a black pine , his pale unattractive saddles will someday be JET black.

Thanks for putting my head back on straight.

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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

NOT albino. but a nice little snake. Lots of dark pigmentation on them. A little bigger than a gopher, a little smaller than a bull. I will post a picture when I get my camera back from my friend...

but if they are both from albino parents, they are double het for two dif strains of albinism, so when bred together you could get some interesting stuff, 2 forms albino and perhaps one phenotype mixture of both, depends where the genes lay in the genotype. I would be interested in those results as well.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

double hets are cool. Jason Nelson did some sort of project with double hets of albinism in other colubrids and said the one that showed both types had "green" colors in it. I am anxious to see what happens to mine when bred to each other; however, I only got four babies, and unfortunately they are all female. I plan on trying to breed the parents again next year and (hopefully if I get fertile eggs again) incubating them hotter to get some males. That way, by the time my females are up to size I might have a male as well....
Or, maybe I wont, since I may have better plans with that female next year....
I'll keep you guys posted tho, and pics should be up in about a week.

go look at other snakes classifieds and look for albino pines, they are from northern and southern pines, they are very very very nice and healthy looking.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research