Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Am I the only one who was irritated by the post about importation below? I think the part that irritated me most was the line about how we should ban normal importation but keep the morphs. That is probably the most pompous thing I have ever heard..... A. Let's only rape a population if there is real profit to be made? and B. You think the harvesters won't raid nests looking for the "next big thing?" I understand breeders are pissed that prices drop. But it happens. If you can't stand it then start a gtp breeding program. Corn breeders have been getting $15 a snake for years.
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

I here you and I agree 110% and wild Ball Pythons ROCK!! David of DS Reptile Rescue ,Removal & Rehabilitation

I'm confused? You would think someone affiliated with a reptile rescue organization would be against dooming 100,000 snakes to a slow death every year?

I think we should import more lion and tiger pelts and up the importation of ivory as well!

~np!

LOL, that's hardly a fair comparison. Lions, tigers and elephants are actually endangered NOW. Ball pythons are not. I understand people think the exporting of hundreds of thousands of them a year will wind them up in the same boat as lions and tigers and elephants, but you can't possibly believe there aren't at least that many more out there procreating and adding to the wild population. Granted, in the wild, balls normally only breed every other year or so AND have much smaller clutches than say a rock python, but they've been doing this for how many years already? If CITES is truely involved, don't you think they would put reduce the limit, or stop it completely if there were a threat to ball pythons existance?

I think the waste of lives once they get to there prospective homes in the country of import is where the problem lies. I'm sure many more die either in transit or once they get to their final homes, than even the most informed person in here realizes. If there were a way to insure these deaths wouldn't occur, i.e. only truely responsible herpers and not people who only wanted them because they were cool or as a show peice to be tossed off when the novelty wore off, there would be less call for them and the import numbers would go down naturally. Just my thoughts on the whole thing.

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

not YET!
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Thanks
Chad Ramsey
onetonyj@yahoo.com

Well Said Quig. David

I agree with that to some point. The problem is that then you have to get the local gov. involved. I am sure we all want to get ANOTHER permitt and have agents making check lists of what we have annually It is bad enough here in MO already...
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Were did that come from no one said anything about getting any government involved except maybe the African Gov. to put a stop to there breeders over breeding . David

Your wrong my friend we support all animal life and right to live and what do you think would happen to more snakes if not imported to the U.S. , they would end up in Japan in the herbal medicine trade or in the meet market . I don’t like that they keep over breeding them but I would rather them come here for the pet trade than to Japan ,Tieland ,Vietnam , Cambodia and other countries were they will be for whole sale slaughter . So until you research things better don’t presume to tell me what I should be representing or believing in . I can’t stop them from coming here but I can support there right to a descant life as they didn’t ask to come here and had no choice in the matter . Thanks David of DS Reptile Rescue

Two wromgs dont make a right. Lets fix our own back yard and then we can worry about Japan.

I ant worried about Japan . If any body I worry about Africa’s breeding policies or lack there of .and I have enough to do tiring to get the info out about being a responsible reptile owner and taking care of the ones that no one else wants . David

It's not like they're BREEDING them in captivity in Africa-they're collecting wild gravid females and hatcxhing the eggs.

The current trade is clearly unsustainable for a strongly K-selected species like Python regius-either CITES will address this or nature will.

Brad Chambers

I'm with you on this, but GEEEEZ I wish you hadn't started this one over again .

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

I would be with you as well, but it's clear that CURRENT levels of exportation are unsustainable. Importation should only continue at a level proven to be sustainable by the populations being harvested. This will take field research.

Brad Chambers

Captive hatched ball pythons are fine, but what about WC adults and subadults? There's a weekly flea market where I live and they sell WC adults all the time and I hear all the time about people who buy these snakes and they NEVER eat. Months go by and they just waste away and die. Occasionally they will eat gerbils but that's rare. I understand that WC adults are where most of the morphs come from, but what about the other couple thousand that starve to death every year? I know it'll never happen, but I think importing adults should be strictly limited to just the unusual/possible morphs. Too many normal and perfectly healthy wild-caught balls are doomed to a slow death the second they leave Africa.

Just a thought...

That were education comes in and researching a animal before you get one for a pet . And if you have a problem you can’t handle THAT’S WHAT A RESCUE IS FOR , not just cb but wc ,ch , all of them we don’t discriminate we help them all. David of DS Reptile Rescue , Removal & Rehabilitation

Corns eat much less than balls and corns can produce 40-50 eggs a year while the average for ball is 6-8 eggs. You don't see a difference in that? The CITES restrictions on the volume of ball pythons being shipped to the USA is past due to be dropped significantly anyway. So I doubt we will stil have this conversation in a couple years. And by the way, if they exported just the "mutant" ball pythons, that would leave 100,000 normals a year over there that are coming here now. Don't you see that as a huge difference?

I see what your saying but we still need to see that the ones that do come are taken care of . If the pet industry did a better job of educating the bier more of them would survive and then there would be less of a demand for them .David

It seems several of the posters below have either no understanding or very little understanding about the ecological principals involved. They also have no understanding of whats actually going on with the wild populations in Africa.

They think that removing X number of hatchlings necessarily means a reduction of X number of individuals in the next breeding generation, when we know thats simply not true. As I mentioned before, in many reptiles that have been studied, removing up to 50 percent of a clutch of eggs can have absolutely NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on the populations numbers in the future. It sure seems counterintuitive, but its true.

It works like this: Lets say the percentage of this years hatchlings that survive to breed are 10%. That means 90% die. In a managed population, even if you cull 50% right off the bat, the remaining 50% can have a much higher survival rate. You still can very easily get your 10% survival to breeding.

In fact, many populations suffer when they are no longer managed by a well planned harvest.

Now, I personally am not a big fan of the vast importation of wild BPs...I'm just saying the ecological prinicpals cited are flawed...

I just posted something along the lines of this post, without the percentages, but I agree with you on this.

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

As I mentioned before, in many reptiles that have been studied, removing up to 50 percent of a clutch of eggs can have absolutely NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on the populations numbers in the future.

Removing 50% of the clutch is a little different than removing 100% of the clutch, and the mother (who survived to breeder age)and removing the father too and the uncle as well.

Also, I do not believe the people in these poor countries or their Bannana Republic govenments, really understand or care what happens to the snakes and many people on the other side are just chasing the almighty dollar.

Man you just don’t get it ! JP, Quig don’t waist your time he just doesn’t get it just conceder the source and ignore the ignorance . Thanks David of DS Reptile Rescue

It will be ok.

Perhaps I should clarify..... I think that NO ball python should be shipped from Africa. I thought it ironic that somebody would even say "let's stop normals but keep the good ones coming...." I think it's either all or nothing. And to the "morphs stand out better so they are doomed" defence. It happens.... How many albino snakes are born in the wild every year? I am sure hundreds have died before anyone spotted one. One snake never made a difference except to someones pocket book.
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"