Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First off, let me say I have never owned a hot. I have worked with various aggressive non-poisonous species (mostly green trees and some very nasty carpets and redtails), but that's about it.

I have been considering making a foray into hots (with guidance/mentoring of course)within the next six months to a year.

My reason is simple. The animals amaze me. I could spent hours just watching a copperhead sit and do nothing. They fascinate me. I was just curious as to if I sound naive....this is something that probably will not happen for another year, as I will need to do copious research, practice with my own snakes (I have been treating my nasty-tempered Texas rat like he is hot for the past few months, just as a wee bit of intro-practicing), etc....but I guess I am asking...is pure admiration for the animal a "good enough" reason to own one? Or do I not sound "ready?"

I would do this.....

Start handling all your snakes with tools only. I only ever handle my hots with hooks or tongs. I dont tail them, or pin them. Nothing but tools. The reason why? This keeps me at more than half their body length away from the head. This gives me a great advantage to not getting bit, although I wont pretend I'm invincible.
Once you start to see how precarious it can be at times, consider if the animal were hot, how would you handle the situation? No cheating either. If the animal drops off the hook onto the floor, you gotta get it back on the hook without putting your hands near it. As to whether you're ready for hots or not, I dont know you. I wont say.
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

You will find very few people in this hobby who have any better reason than an admiration and fascination with the animals to justify keeping them privately. And really, isn't it admiration and fascination that drives anybody to want to work with these animals? I can't imagine anyone who works with venomous because they HAVE to, not because they want to. Venomous herpeteculture can be an extremely rewarding experience for a person, provided they are willing to accept some inherent risks, and are willing and capable to learn the proper husbandry techniques, as well as purchase proper tools and secure caging and secure a source of antivenin for exotic species.

Find a good mentor (a "good" mentor is someone who actually knows what they are doing as opposed to some yahoo working towards a Darwin Award), and start talking to them. If they see an honest passion for the animals in you, perhaps they'll offer to teach you the ropes. Most venomous reptiles are not all that difficult to work with. However, it's a discipline and like any discipline, it takes time to get used to it. What gets most people into trouble is carelessness and failure to adhere to fairly simple safety rules...complacency is the true enemy of the venomous reptile keeper. Know your limits, and don't ever let yourself get in over your head. Baby steps are a really, really, really good thing in this hobby. Bravado and machoism only gets people killed.

Next is the money factor: venomous reptiles cannot be kept in your standard reptile enclosures. A secure, preferably locking cage is absolutely mandatory, and preferably all venomous should be kept in a "hot room". The idea is that if a snake escapes a cage (something that shouldn't happen anyway), it will be secured within the room. Both the hotroom and the cages should be so that not only do they keep the snakes in, but they keep other people out. Also, you will need antivenin access in case of a bite. In the case of native snakes, contact your hospital, let them know what you are doing, and verify that they do have a stock of Crofab available. It would be advisable to contact a physician who has some experience treating snakebites (such experience is actually quite rare within the medical community...depending on where you live, your doctor may never have treated one before, and this can cost you big time). If you end up keeping exotic venomous at some point, you will need to secure a supply of foreign antivenin, which can be a very costly process. Also, make sure your insurance policy is paid up, and keep in mind some insurers will not cover you if they know what you are up to.

Keep in mind that when keeping venomous, you have to keep your safety AS WELL as the safety of those around you paramount at all times.

If you are willing to accept all this responsibility, and are patient enough to learn the ropes properly and become a respectable venomous keeper, then I'd say yes, a fascination and admiration for venomous snakes is a more than valid reason to get into this hobby.

I started keeping a diamondback and a water moccasin as my first venomous, because I bought both from Thompson's Wild Animal Farm in Clewiston when I was fifteen. I went to buy the diamondback and he threw in the moccasin for five more bucks. Boy those were the days! I use to handle them darn near daily. I was milking their venom and feeding them with a syringe and tube, picking off eye caps or pieces of sheds, basically any excuse and I was grabbing them for some reason or another. I considered it something like a pilot getting his flight time. I always think back to that sort of thing when I see the posts that rip someone for handling a venomous snake. The hobby sure has come a long way from when I got started We had massive nerve or just didn’t know ant better I guess. There is virtually no reason to ever own a venomous snake. If you are really into keeping snakes, eventually you find yourself wanting to experience keeping one of the venomous kind. Maybe several of them. Just a natural progression into more advanced keeping. Seems to me if you aren’t willing to handle them, you should forget about it. As much as I hate equating keeping venomous snakes with a macho thing, it is certainly a requirement that you possess a certain amount of confidence in your ability to handle them. You can be fifteen and do motorcycle tricks, handle hots, fly a plane or be thirty five years old and not able to do any of those things. Just don’t get in over your head.

Well, two out of the three posts gave rock solid, excellent advice. You didn't mention your age but I'm assuming you are not a minor; if you are, I would wait until you are a little older before diving into the keeping of hots. To reiterate some important points:
- always use tools and never "handle" your hots (restrain by head, milk, etc.); there' absolutely no reason to.
- find a good mentor who can show you the ropes
- get used to using tools all the time; even with non venomous
- develop a detailed emergency plan and cover all of your bases
- don't skimp on caging; buy one that can be locked and kept in a locked room at all times.
- live a clean life, don't live excessively and keep yourself fit in both body and mind.
- don't ever work with hots when you are distracted

You mentioned you want to keep them because you are in awe of them; that's the best reason in the world. It's not about the machismo B.S. or anything remotely close to that. Admire them, work with them safely and don't get bit.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>First off, let me say I have never owned a hot. I have worked with various aggressive non-poisonous species (mostly green trees and some very nasty carpets and redtails), but that's about it.
>>
>>I have been considering making a foray into hots (with guidance/mentoring of course)within the next six months to a year.
>>
>>My reason is simple. The animals amaze me. I could spent hours just watching a copperhead sit and do nothing. They fascinate me. I was just curious as to if I sound naive....this is something that probably will not happen for another year, as I will need to do copious research, practice with my own snakes (I have been treating my nasty-tempered Texas rat like he is hot for the past few months, just as a wee bit of intro-practicing), etc....but I guess I am asking...is pure admiration for the animal a "good enough" reason to own one? Or do I not sound "ready?"
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob you mentioned something that we should recommend more. Before delving into venomous one should obtain the proper tools and get used to using them by doing so on their non vens. Its not the same but it will get them comfortable with the use of their tools which will help immensely
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Dan S.
Crotalus & Company
Venom-Center Your Complete Venomous Community
Wisconsin Reptile Community

Although there's never a substitute for the "real deal" when it comes to hots, the use of various hooks, tongs, etc doesn't change and the key is to get to the point of using the equipment in an almost instinctual manner (muscle memory comes from repetition). When I played pro baseball, I had to hit countless balls off the "tee" and although this doesn't simulate a real game situation, it developed muscle memory of the proper swing which can then be carried into the game. Working with the proper equipment with venomous is no different.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Rob you mentioned something that we should recommend more. Before delving into venomous one should obtain the proper tools and get used to using them by doing so on their non vens. Its not the same but it will get them comfortable with the use of their tools which will help immensely
>>-----
>>Dan S.
>>Crotalus & Company
>>Venom-Center Your Complete Venomous Community
>>Wisconsin Reptile Community
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Pro baseball?? A facet of the man we knew nothing about . . . could you briefly summarize your career for those of us who are baseball lovers?

I played D-3 baseball at Elmhurst College where I was a 3-year NCAA ALL American and set a bunch of hitting records including a NCAA record for most HR's in a game....until the record was shattered by a player from Florida St. U. Eventually, I was inducted into the Elmhurst College Sports Hall of Fame (that's when you know you are really aging!). After college, I was offered a contract to play professional baseball in Australia (that's right....as I look back I laugh - or cry - at the possibility that I could have played pro ball and be in prime herping country at the same time...but, it just wasn't the right time). Instead, I ended up playing with an unaffiliated team at the AA/AAA level in Canada. Although I never quite made it to the "bigs" I far surpassed my expectations and led the minor leagues (of that division) in just about every hitting category and led the league in assists as a center fielder for three straight seasons. It was tough at times seeing other players move up but that's the way it goes (many excellent players fall through the cracks). All in all, it was an experience of a lifetime and something that I am truly blessed to have experienced. Now, I still get to stay involved with the sport by coaching part time at a nearby college. There came a point where I had to make a decision to either linger in the minors or move on and since I had another passion in my life that I hadn't explored yet (herps) I thought that was the right time to do it; and I've never looked back.

So there you have it....a little jock in this scaly guy.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Pro baseball?? A facet of the man we knew nothing about . . . could you briefly summarize your career for those of us who are baseball lovers?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I wasn't offended by the minor question I am 23 and a veterinary student with an interest in exotics and infectious disease. Thanks for the notes, guys, I really appreciate your knowledge and advice.

I think it is just as bad to give the impression that you can own a venomous reptile as long as you have a sturdy cage, a trap box, some good tools and some antivenom. There are proper ways to handle venomous snakes. Stop spreading the ridiculous notion that you can own one without having to ever touch it. Using a hook and tailing with your hand gives far superior control than you could ever get with two hooks, or tongs and hooks, etc. Why is it taboo to be honest about it? The real truth is that it is dangerous to have them at all. Most people, including snake lovers, should not have them. If you have to have an arsenal of tools, shields, three foot barrier, etc- then stick to going to the zoo.
Ross Allen photo- guess he didn’t know what he was doing either...

I’d like to see someone with the nerve to post some pictures of the “proper” technique for grabbing a venomous snake. All I see are criticisms every time there is a photo of anyone holding a snake.

No one said that having proper caging, tools, etc. automatically qualifies you to keep venomous. Competency in various handling techniques is of course required.

There are some that would argue that consistent "hands-on" handling of some species is actually beneficial, in that the animal gets used to being handled. I can't really argue with this logic: A well conditioned animal that anticipates and tolerates regular maintainance handling is probably much easier to work with than an animal that is never handled and then has to be on rare occasions. This would apply to high strung species like mambas, king cobras, etc. that can be problematic to handle if they are not used to it. That said, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any elapid keepers who would scoff at the idea of using a trap-box.

However, species like copperheads, most rattlesnakes, and the like can easily be kept their entire lives with minimal hands on contact. They are, in general easy to hook without tailing (up to a certain size), and easy to tube.

Most of the pics you posted appeared to be of snakes being milked in what I'm presuming is a venom facility. Very few private keepers run venom labs. Thus, there is absolutely no reason they would have to pin their charges, the exception being to medicate or forcefeed. Again, competance in these skills is important, but one hopes they will be used sparingly.

it was never necessary to have actual contact with a venomous snake? And for that matter, who is stating that all one needs to maintain these animals safely and successfully is sturdy caging, a few hooks, tongs and some goggles? I don't read the responses here to imply that at all...

The fact of the matter is that sometimes (rarely) it IS necessary to come into contact with your venomous snakes...administering meds and other necessary husbandry practices do necessitate exposure to the business end of the snake...I don't think anyone is arguing this...Is keeping these animals inherently dangerous? Certainly....but the MOST IMPORTANT ingredients in order to avoid looking at daisy roots from the bottom are sound handling techniques, sound safety protocols in the event of a bite and some good ole' fashioned common sense...Sound handling techniques include the proficient use of hooks and other handling equipment in an effort to do what you have to do with minimal contact with the snake.

The pics posted of various snakes being milked give an unrealistic picture of what a "newbie" can expect when entering the foray of ven keeping...virtually all of the photos depict an animal being milked...There is no reason a private keeper should ever do this...Medical facilities wouldn't accept milkings from private parties (too much risk of contamination) and it puts both the keeper and the kept at grave risk of injury or death...

Appropriate use of tubes, hooks, tongs, etc. is the safest way to manipulate these animals...Anyone that argues that it's "better" to have alot of personal contact with their cobra or rattlesnake is beggin' for a Darwin award IMO...Whether or not consistent handling influences the behavior of these animals is irrelevant...even the "tamest" snake will have its bad days, and with alot of these animals all it takes is one.

Upscale, if you want to "keep it real" this is as real as I can keep it...Yes, it is necessary at times to handle a venomous snake...However, those instances are few and far between thanks to tubes, hooks, etc. Yes, one does have to have confidence and knowledge when dealing with these animals. Purporting the idea that it is necessary or safe to handle animals in the manner depicted in the photos you posted is misdirected and erroneous...Milking snakes is never necessary for the private hobbyist and crouching over a C. adamanteus, preparing to grab it behind the head certainly does NOT fall into the "good sense" category required for responsible husbandry, regardless of who does it.

Stepping off my soap box now....

-AzAtrox

Kris, you said it perfectly and I really can't add anything to it. Upscale got bent out of shape over remarks I made that were taken far out of context. I should just bite my lip but for the sake of beginners who may be reading this thread, I'll respond. Upscale did indeed showed photos of venomous snakes being "handled" either for the purpose of milking, showing off, or, T.V. (and not all showed proper technique). Is the average hobbyist going to be starting his/her own venom extraction lab or making appearances on T.V.? Doubtful. Is it necessary to physically touch a venomous herp? In all honesty, you could potentially keep a vneomous snake w/out ever touching it (even to administer meds); but that may be difficult depending on the application or situation. So, yes, there are times when contact is necessary but should never be done by someone keeping a venomous herp for the first time. Do I make contact with my venomous herps? Yes, but we have over 100 and having worked with them for many years with a perfect safety record, I would never have considered hooking/tailing or pinning (which really should never be done unless it's absolutely required) when I first started. Sure, hook and tailing of fast moving and agile elapids is most likely an important technique to master but not necessarily a requirement of keeping one. Most folks (99.9% in my opinion - that's a bit of an exageration so hold the comments) wishing to own a venomous snake, particularly an elapid, probably shouldn't. Most folks don't have the proper facilities, access to A/V, experience, skills or emergency protocols in place to responsibly keep them. The key to keeping venomous herps successfully is to not get bit; it's really that simple. You get bit when you expose yourself by using poor judgement (immaturity, showing off, drugs/alcohol, etc.), underestimating the snake (strike distance, speed, not being able to read the snake, etc.), or playing the Darwinian odds (the more you physically touch the snake, the more chance you have of getting bitten). You reduce the Darwinian odds by using proper tools (and mastering their usage) when working with venomous snakes. There is still an inherent risk and although I am not a big fan of most folks keeping them, there are enough responsible people, like Kris and others, where I support their rights to own them as private individuals; but they are few and far between.

>>it was never necessary to have actual contact with a venomous snake? And for that matter, who is stating that all one needs to maintain these animals safely and successfully is sturdy caging, a few hooks, tongs and some goggles? I don't read the responses here to imply that at all...
>>
>>The fact of the matter is that sometimes (rarely) it IS necessary to come into contact with your venomous snakes...administering meds and other necessary husbandry practices do necessitate exposure to the business end of the snake...I don't think anyone is arguing this...Is keeping these animals inherently dangerous? Certainly....but the MOST IMPORTANT ingredients in order to avoid looking at daisy roots from the bottom are sound handling techniques, sound safety protocols in the event of a bite and some good ole' fashioned common sense...Sound handling techniques include the proficient use of hooks and other handling equipment in an effort to do what you have to do with minimal contact with the snake.
>>
>>The pics posted of various snakes being milked give an unrealistic picture of what a "newbie" can expect when entering the foray of ven keeping...virtually all of the photos depict an animal being milked...There is no reason a private keeper should ever do this...Medical facilities wouldn't accept milkings from private parties (too much risk of contamination) and it puts both the keeper and the kept at grave risk of injury or death...
>>
>>Appropriate use of tubes, hooks, tongs, etc. is the safest way to manipulate these animals...Anyone that argues that it's "better" to have alot of personal contact with their cobra or rattlesnake is beggin' for a Darwin award IMO...Whether or not consistent handling influences the behavior of these animals is irrelevant...even the "tamest" snake will have its bad days, and with alot of these animals all it takes is one.
>>
>>Upscale, if you want to "keep it real" this is as real as I can keep it...Yes, it is necessary at times to handle a venomous snake...However, those instances are few and far between thanks to tubes, hooks, etc. Yes, one does have to have confidence and knowledge when dealing with these animals. Purporting the idea that it is necessary or safe to handle animals in the manner depicted in the photos you posted is misdirected and erroneous...Milking snakes is never necessary for the private hobbyist and crouching over a C. adamanteus, preparing to grab it behind the head certainly does NOT fall into the "good sense" category required for responsible husbandry, regardless of who does it.
>>
>>Stepping off my soap box now....
>>
>>-AzAtrox
>>
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I think you both responded in a nice way without insults and getting all bent out of shape. That’s very refreshing for some of these threads. I appreciate the candor and honesty. If anything, I made you elaborate your points, which is good. Some newbie looking for tips should get nice long well written posts and not the real quick same old rehash. Of course I posted pics of venom extractions, it was just to show with pictures that snakes can and are handled with bare hands without incident many countless times. A proper secure grip basically renders any snake harmless. As Carmichael said- “The key to keeping venomous herps successfully is to not get bit; it's really that simple.” I like that. No exaggerated hooey. I use to have a diamondback that punctured a sheath darn near every time it shed a fang. You read how they stick into the prey and the snake just swallows them. I have had to use forceps to remove them from his mouth many times. You try to wait and watch them yawning and rubbing in obvious discomfort and then what? I grab them and fix it. Just one example and you keepers far more experienced than I must have a heck of a lot more examples than that. I guess you could call the vet every time something happens and you need to do something like that, but I’m from the old school, I guess, when you started out catching rattlers and stuff basically as a kid. We pinned them and grabbed them and got real good at it too. Now you’ve got kids wanting to get a Rhino as a first hot, and thinking they never even need to touch it, so what’s the big deal... So anyway, I’m glad you responded and didn’t bite your lip. I agree with your 99.9 shouldn’t own them too. Only thing I might add is that bites happen not only because of alchohol, misjudging strike range and all that- sometimes with all the experience the snake just wins one. Flat out truth that should add to the thought that most people by far have no business taking such a chance.

I do agree in that it's nice when adults can be candid and respectfully agree or disagree on heated topics like this. Too often, we get the "I quit and I'm taking my toys elsewhere" childish behavior on this and other similar forums. Even amongst the "old school mindset" there are still differences in opinion. I have friends who've been around the block more than a few times and can run circles around my experience (as much as I hate to say it). One deals with hots one way and the other a completely different way....I may find myself siding with one method/approach but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm right or wrong; just something I may get a tad opinionated about. I find myself sort of in the middle between a hands off approach, and, "handling" only when necessary but that seems to happen more regularly than I care to elaborate on.

In the end thought, despite our best skills, and, attention to detail and safety, even the best get zapped and yes, the snake wins as you mentioned. All we can do is hope that we are prepared when and if that ever happens and hope we get a second chance. I have colleagues who've had perfect records go by the wayside by one millisecond of bad judgement - things can happen in a microsecond. That's why it's so important to minimize those chances. Glad this thread didn't turn into a shouting match like it normally does around here.

>>I think you both responded in a nice way without insults and getting all bent out of shape. That’s very refreshing for some of these threads. I appreciate the candor and honesty. If anything, I made you elaborate your points, which is good. Some newbie looking for tips should get nice long well written posts and not the real quick same old rehash. Of course I posted pics of venom extractions, it was just to show with pictures that snakes can and are handled with bare hands without incident many countless times. A proper secure grip basically renders any snake harmless. As Carmichael said- “The key to keeping venomous herps successfully is to not get bit; it's really that simple.” I like that. No exaggerated hooey. I use to have a diamondback that punctured a sheath darn near every time it shed a fang. You read how they stick into the prey and the snake just swallows them. I have had to use forceps to remove them from his mouth many times. You try to wait and watch them yawning and rubbing in obvious discomfort and then what? I grab them and fix it. Just one example and you keepers far more experienced than I must have a heck of a lot more examples than that. I guess you could call the vet every time something happens and you need to do something like that, but I’m from the old school, I guess, when you started out catching rattlers and stuff basically as a kid. We pinned them and grabbed them and got real good at it too. Now you’ve got kids wanting to get a Rhino as a first hot, and thinking they never even need to touch it, so what’s the big deal... So anyway, I’m glad you responded and didn’t bite your lip. I agree with your 99.9 shouldn’t own them too. Only thing I might add is that bites happen not only because of alchohol, misjudging strike range and all that- sometimes with all the experience the snake just wins one. Flat out truth that should add to the thought that most people by far have no business taking such a chance.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Ok I usually don't chime in here. I have been a venomous keeper for the last seven years. One thing I have not seen mentioned is checking with your local hospital or doctors to be sure you have someone to administer the antivenom in the case of an emergency. My local hospitals will not. Due to this I have cut back on my venomous to only north american hots that the hospital stocks the antivenom for.
Remember if you want to keep hots always be safe and don't cut any corners. proper cages and tools are not cheap but they will make the difference in enjoying you animals and wishing you never got them.

It was mentioned in one of my previous posts but you are absolutely correct and it's worth repeating. A stay at the hospital will run around $20K once its said and done (for an average snake bite); if you don't have good health insurance, that could sink a lot of people.

>>Ok I usually don't chime in here. I have been a venomous keeper for the last seven years. One thing I have not seen mentioned is checking with your local hospital or doctors to be sure you have someone to administer the antivenom in the case of an emergency. My local hospitals will not. Due to this I have cut back on my venomous to only north american hots that the hospital stocks the antivenom for.
>> Remember if you want to keep hots always be safe and don't cut any corners. proper cages and tools are not cheap but they will make the difference in enjoying you animals and wishing you never got them.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob you made a good point about the cost of hospitalization. In some states where hots are illegal, major insurance carriers treat venomous bite as attempted suicide and thus not covered. Something to be aware of.

Also, discussion is always targeted on protocals for direct husbandry (you to the snake), but people forget that others are indirectly in harms way. What happens if you get envenomated and are incapacited? Who does the cleanup? The recapture of the snake? Also, how do you alert emergency personnel that a venomous animal exists in your house in these cases or worse, you get into an auto accident during transport to a qualified veternarian. This is an issue we deal with in Illinois when a recapture happens, because the last thing emergency personnel are going to expect is a hot passenger loose in a vehicle.

Rob, now you know why Bob and I are so anal How's the little prairie doing?
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================================
Support your local herp society
www.chicagoherp.org

Rob I never knew you played pro ball? Cool!

Ian

Yup, it was a very cool experience and had a chance to see and play in many wonderful ball parks along the way.

>>Rob I never knew you played pro ball? Cool!
>>
>>Ian
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

No hard feelings....but actually I brought up the use of tools on non-vens first, Rob was echoing me...LOL
I'm usually a bit more modest about that stuff. I'll assume you just skipped my post LOL
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Sounds like you were a solid player, Rob. It is interesting that the independent leagues are giving more players a shot these days -- some of them are at the AA level or better.
Re handling of venomous, I don't keep any these days (have in the past) and I have always assumed one basic truth: Do not handle any snake with venom that can strike faster than I can move. The second truth is, evolution has engineered every snake this side of a DOR one to move faster than its prey (or me.)

Nice to see this discussion.

It really is counterintuitive in some ways--A good hot keeper is probably using shift boxes, hooks, etc most of the time, and simultaneously does not hesitate when there is a retained eye cap or something else that requires hands on treatment.

I still tend to think that the odds of a bite go higher the more closely a snake is handled, even if this has the advantage of making the snake more accustomed to handling. Each handling episode is a "bite opportunity window" so to speak, even for the pro's--I remember watching the Jeff Corwin/black mamba show, and I was shaking like a leaf the way that mamba was twitching between Jeff's fingers. But then I remember a story told on these boards ages ago, of the Manhattan studio apartment dweller who needed some emergency assistance when his black mamba managed to get loose and took up residence on the guy's bookshelves. He thought he could keep the mamba between cage and shift box without ever even hooking it. Interesting discussion.