Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Cannot believe it my usual very friendly female argentine rainbow boa has just bitten me

No warning, heaving breathing or hissing, just spun around and bit me when i went to pick her up

She has recently give birth
But has been handled since with no problem

Do these snake get more "Ratty" as they get older .or have I just caught her having an off moment

Ps ..Do I need a tetnus shot?

It just plain happens, I get bit all the time. Of course I'm dealing with dozens of snakes vs a few so....

Probably NOT a behavioral change, just caught her at a bad moment.

Unless she's been chewing on rusty nails, no tetnus shot required, just clean it up and like any injury, watch for signs of infection and treat accordingly!

When I was a kid a ruptured my spleen and the docs removed it. I've lived 30 plus years having to watch for infection and not a problem. The spleen does help fight off infection.

Been snake bit too damn many times to count, NEVER had a problem from it later, just need to clean and disinfect!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
21.29 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

yesterday morning. Was pulling snakes from moss hides to refresh the hides and Dumbo decided he was too comfy and didn't want to be disturbed. We battled and I won but not before he got a tag in on my thumb!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
21.29 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Well, I can safely say I've never been bitten but she (BRB) did give me a defensive strike when she was a baby when I first got her. Never had a problem after that.

So I gotta agree with Dave, either a bad moment for her or you just caught her off guard and maybe she was startled!

My Corn Snake (WC) on the other hand did bite me once on the hand and he drew blood, never got an infection or anything, just rinsed my hand off good and put some rubbing alcohol on it and was good to go again!

from adult reticulated pythons, in the 14-17 foot range. The impact alone made my hand swell and turn black and blue immediately after the bite. Over the years I have lost the reflex of pulling away when be bitten. When I was about 12 I got bit by a 14 foot retic and I pulled my arm out of it's mouth and severely messed up my forearm, like a cheese shredder. From that point on I never even flinch when bitten. Now the worst I get looks like a sticker bush injury, with localized swelling and bruising. It's been quite awhile since I have been seriously tagged. ( about 1 year )

I have become conditioned over time and literally do not move when grabbed, natural instinct is to pull away, this lack of movement on my part makes the subsequent injury a lot less severe than if you pull your digit out of the snakes grasp.

Those teeth are curved for a reason!!

These bites usually have copious amounts of blood involved, making them at first glance appear worse then they really are.

I have suffered full body constriction more than once.

That has not happened in quite a few years, at least 10. No matter how much these people who keep large constrictors say they do not service enclosures without a second person around they in my opinion are most likely full of [bleep]!

I do currently adhere to the following guidelines as closely as permissible:

AFH Guidelines For The Keeping Of LARGE CONSTRICTORS
This document is provided, free of charge, by the AFH. It can be freely distributed in printed or electronic form, but must have all text intact and credit given to the AFH. The AFH has also developed guidelines for monitor lizards and keeping of large boid snakes in schools. These guidelines have been used, in conjunction with our legislative handbook, to favorably influence municipal, county, and state legislation. The AFH also publishes THE VIVARIUM, the acclaimed journal on the captive breeding of amphibians and reptiles.

Introduction

The American Federation of Herpetoculturists (AFH) emphasizes responsible Herpetoculture as the backbone of its position on the keeping of amphibians and reptiles. With regard to the ownership of large constrictors, an outline of the AFH views which has been approved by the AFH Board of Directors and presented at several hearings in Southern California is as follows:

Responsible Large Constrictor Ownership

A. In consideration of the right of the general public not to be exposed unexpectedly to snakes such as large constrictors and in consideration of the irresponsible behavior of certain snake owners, the AFH recommends that snakes not be openly displayed in a public setting outside of proper and established forums for such practices such as Herpetological shows, educational displays, pet stores and presentations, and other special displays whereby members of the public are forewarned that a snake(s) maybe displayed in the open.

B. The AFH recommends that all snakes be transported in a manner that precludes escape: In a sturdy cloth bag free of holes or tears which is then placed inside a box or similar container with holes for aeration. The box or container should then be sealed or locked shut. Another alternative is to double bag snakes. Care must be taken to use sturdy cloth bags with a weave that allows for adequate air flow. Airlines should be consulted as to their requirements when shipping snakes by air.

C. For the keeping of large constrictors 8 feet or more, the AFH recommends general caging regulations whose effects are similar to those which require dog owners to keep their pets within the confines of their property. Caging regulations for large snakes should require owners of such snakes to house them in secure cages with a hinged top, or doors, or a sliding glass front which include a locking mechanism. Such enclosures should preferably be contained in a large room modified to prevent snake escapes and with a door which shall be kept shut or locked when not occupied by the owners. This recommendation is made to require responsible herpetocultural practices by individuals in consideration for the animals, for family members and for members of the general public. As herpetoculturists we will all benefit by adopting these responsible practices.

D. When handling any of the giant snakes (Green anaconda, Indian and Burmese python, African rock python, reticulated python and amethystine python) over 8 feet, the AFH recommends that another individual be present or at the very least within calling reach. The probability of any serious problem occurring when handling such snakes is very remote but the AFH position is that herpetoculturists, out of responsibility to themselves, to family members and to other herpetoculturists, should handle and maintain large snakes in a manner that significantly prevents the likelihood of any accident or incident.

E. The AFH does not recommend the ownership of the above mentioned giant constrictors as well as other large (adult size over 7 feet) boid snakes by minors without parental consent to assume responsibility for proper housing, maintenance and supervision when handling.

F. The AFH recommends that safe procedures be adopted during handling and feeding. These would include the use of a snake hook prior to removing a large python or boa from an enclosure. When feeding, food should never be offered by hand.

G. As with any other animals such as dogs, owners of large constrictors should remember that they can be liable for the medical costs of treating injuries as well as additional financial damages for traumas or damage caused by their animals.

What About Regulations?

There appears to have been a trend in the last few years for cities or states to draft ordinances or regulations to control or restrict ownership of large snakes. Various agencies or organizations directly or indirectly support these regulations particularly with regards to the ownership of large constrictors (typically boas and pythons which can achieve an adult length of over 8 feet). They contend that the public should be protected from the remote possibility of danger from these animals. Most of these proposed regulations conceal the underlying persistent bias against snakes which to this day permeates the attitudes of many people against reptiles. One would assume from these regulations that potentially dangerous things should not, as a matter of course be possessed by the general public. One could also be led to believe that these various agencies look out for our welfare. In fact, our lives are routinely affected by much greater probabilities of danger than presented by large constrictors that are condoned by numerous agencies as well as the federal government. Dogs raised and kept by irresponsible owners are clearly dangerous as plenty of statistical data indicates (10-15 deaths per year, millions of dollars spent in treating bites). Cats can be dangerous. They can claw (many people don't seem to mind). They also account for a significant percentage of reported animal bites and can carry some nasty diseases.
Living near other human beings can be very dangerous. In fact, based on available statistics, a human being has a far greater chance of being seriously injured from a bite by a fellow human than by a large constrictor. The cars we drive are potentially dangerous as several thousand deaths every year indicate. So is ownership of guns. Horses, if one were to look at available data in the U.S., are one of the most dangerous of domestic animals and many times more dangerous than snakes in terms of deaths and accidents. The electrical appliances in your house are dangerous as is the use of natural gas. So is drinking alcohol and smoking. In the midst of such numerous potential dangers which are an intrinsic part of life, poorly informed and biased state and local agencies regularly propose laws and ordinances which would attempt to ban ownership of large constrictors. If one relied on hard data rather than prejudice, one could make a much better case for banning ownership of dogs, horses, guns, automobiles etc. In the case of Burmese pythons, what becomes evident is that they have an extremely low behavioral propensity to kill humans by constriction. In one report which investigated authenticated deaths by large constrictors in the US . between 1978 and 1988 (4 deaths were reported of which three were caused by reticulated pythons), one incident involved a Burmese python. Furthermore, at
least three of the cases involved irresponsible herpetocultural practices. Considering the many large constrictors, including tens of thousands of Burmese pythons which have been imported and sold during that period, and considering the much more threatening dangers which are generally accepted as a normal part of every day life, the potential danger presented by large
constrictors pales. With a minimum of common sense and by adopting the recommendations made by Herpetological organizations such as the AFH, any problems associated with the ownership of large snakes can be addressed in a responsible manner without perpetuating bias and misinformation and without threatening the rights of herpetoculturists to practice their avocation.

In Conclusion

Before purchasing a Burmese python or any other large constrictor, check your state, county and local regulations for any provisions applying to the ownership of reptiles by individuals. Besides contacting the agencies in charge of implementing these regulations, other good sources of information are local Herpetological societies. It does not pay to break the law in this particular area. Before you know it, you could be making newspaper headlines on the 6 o'clock news. If local authorities call in the state or federal enforcement agencies (State Fish and Game and U.S. Fish and Wildlife) to investigate the possibility of other violations, you could also have an experience of personal violation that you are not about to forget. In some areas, possible possession of an illegal reptile can get more media attention than a major drug bust.

These Guidelines have been approved by the American Federation of Herpetoculturists' (AFH) Board of Directors as the official Guidelines for the keeping of Large Constrictors. Additional copies of these guidelines are available by writing the AFH, P.O. Box 300067, Escondido, CA 92030-0067.

-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

keepers.

PLAYING WITH THE BIG BOYS: HANDLING LARGE CONSTRICTORS

by Lenny Flank

Last year, a 19-year old man was killed in New York City while preparing to feed his 13-foot Burmese python. In January 1994, a 6 foot python escaped from its owner in Santa Rosa, California, by crawling down the toilet, causing a panic among residents in the apartment building. In July 1993, a 15-year old boy in Commerce City, Colorado, was attacked and killed by an 11-foot Burmese Python. In June 1991, a nine year old boy in Long Beach, California, was bitten on the foot and coiled by a 12-foot pet python. In August 1984, a large python escaped its cage in Solvay, New York, causing a panic for nine days before it was found in the ceiling. In November 1980, a seven-month old girl in Dallas was killed when the family's 8-foot python escaped its cage and crawled into the crib, smothering the infant.

Every time an incident like this occurs, the consequences for herpetoculturalists are severe. The fear and misunderstanding which surrounds reptiles (and their keepers) is increased, authorities become more likely to pass uninformed laws in an attempt to "do something" about the "problem", and the efforts of responsible herpers to educate the public about these animals are undermined and crippled.

The problem of fatalities and attacks by captive snakes is very small, but is growing steadily. Between the years of 1978 and 1988, according to the American Federation of Herpetoculturalists, there were four reported instances of amateur keepers killed by their snakes, and only one of these involved a Burmese python (the others involved Reticulated pythons). A check of the New York Times herp between 1970 and 1992 turned up only one report of a fatality involving a captive python. In the five years since then, however, at least two deaths and a number of attacks have been reported, nearly all involving Burmese pythons. This appears to be a direct result of the growing popularity of captive Burms. Inexperienced snake keepers and large potentially aggressive constrictors make a particularly dangerous combination. The sad fact that many thousands of hatchling Burmese pythons have been purchased in the pet trade--most of them by people who are inexperienced and unprepared to deal with them once they reach a large size--means that the number of incidents involving these snakes will only increase in the future. Everyone who has or who may obtain in the future one of the large constrictors, therefore, must be aware of all the safety precautions that are necessary to keep these snakes, and must practice all of these safeguards until they become second nature.

Only five species of constricting snake get large enough to pose a serious threat to human life. These are the Reticulated Python (Python reticulatus), the Amethystine Python (Morelia amethistina) , the Green Anaconda (Eunectes murinus), the Indian Python (Python molurus--the Burmese python P.m. bivittata is a subspecies of the Indian) and the African Rock Python (Python sebae). Only two of these, the Burmese and the Reticulated, are commonly found in the pet trade. The Reticulated python can reach a maximum length of over 30 feet; the Burmese python can reach lengths up to 20 feet. The common Boa Constrictor (Boa constrictor) has never been demonstrated to have ever killed a human being, but it can reach adult lengths near ten feet and can sometimes be difficult and unsafe to handle. For purposes of this discussion, then, any constricting snake that reaches an adult size of eight feet or more should be considered potentially dangerous.

Because Burmese pythons are tough and undemanding snakes, and are reliable feeders, they are sometimes recommended as "good snakes for beginners". The fact is, however, that they are large and powerful animals that grow quickly, reaching a potentially-dangerous size of eight to ten feet and a weight of fifty pounds within two years. Some people have attempted to control the snake's growth by feeding it only a limited amount of food--a practice that is harmful to the health of the animal, and also produces a snake that is always hungry and sometimes aggressive. Despite what you may hear, Burms are not suitable for beginners, and should not be kept until you have a few years of snake keeping experience to your credit.

The first priority in keeping large constrictors is to make sure they are under strict control at all times. Housing for a big boid is a much more complicated affair than it is for a corn or king snake; it is more akin to the requirements for keeping a venomous snake. The enclosure for a boa or python must be spacious and extraordinarily strong. Large snakes are immensely powerful and can push their way out of all but the strongest cages. The cage should be locked at all times, and if possible should itself be within an escape-proof room that is also locked. Very large snakes can be kept in a room of their own, or a walk-in closet which has been converted into a snake cage. These must be kept securely locked at all times. Be aware that boas and pythons can push their way through windows or screens and escape.

Under absolutely no circumstances, however, should a large constrictor ever be allowed to free roam in a room that is occupied by humans. Even though a snake may have been around humans since its birth, it is still a wild animal, with all its natural behaviors and instincts intact. If, for whatever reason, the snake suddenly feels threatened, or if it momentarily confuses its keepers with food, it can attack suddenly and unpredictibly.

A number of rules must be followed in order to safely handle large constrictor snakes. While most boas and pythons are not usually aggressive, they are potentially lethal animals whose power and strength must be respected. No one should ever attempt to handle a large snake (eight feet or more) by himself. This includes even such routine tasks as changing the water or cleaning the cage. A rough guide recommended by most experienced snake keepers is to have one handler for every five feet of snake (every three feet is suggested for nervous or aggressive species such as Reticulated Pythons or Anacondas).

When handling a large constrictor, never allow any of the coils to wrap around your torso or your neck. Boas and pythons are extremely powerful animals, and can cause problems for you even if they are not attempting to constrict, simply by hanging on. If startled or frightened, the snake's reaction will be to tighten its grip--which can present immediate and serious problems if the snake has you coiled in a vulnerable spot.

Feeding time is an especially dangerous moment to be near a large constrictor snake. Although Burmese pythons are not aggressive animals, they are very eager feeders, and will often strike and constrict potential prey that is obviously too big for them to swallow. Because they have poor vision, snakes distinguish prey almost entirely by scent, and can easily confuse prey and keeper. As far as the snake is concerned, if you are moving and have the odor of food on or near you, you are probably food. The feeding response is largely reflexive, and the snake, if it thinks you are a potential meal, will instinctively constrict and kill you before realizing that you are too big to swallow. By the time the snake realizes its error, it will be too late for you. Nearly all fatal accidents involving large constrictors are the result of unsafe feeding procedures, known to experienced snakers as "Stupid Feeding Errors (SFE's)".

For this reason, great care should be taken to avoid confusing the snake during feeding time. Do not ever approach a large constrictor after having handled any potential prey animal (live or dead) or if any potential prey animal is in the area. Potential prey animals that may trigger a feeding response include virtually any warm-blooded creature, such as dogs, cats, rodents, birds and rabbits. In general, live prey animals should be avoided, and large snakes should be fed pre-killed prey exclusively. Dead prey animals intended as food should never be handled with the bare hands. Instead, keepers should use tongs or long-handled forceps to offer prey animals from a safe distance. It is a good idea to wash your hands thoroughly with soap before handling a large constrictor, to remove any trace of prey scent, and to never attempt to handle a large snake that is in a feeding mood.

Potentially dangerous species of snakes should be obtained when they are still very young. This allows the keeper and the snake to learn each other's habits and idiosyncracies. At this stage, the keeper can learn to handle the snake and avoid Stupid Feeding Errors while risking nothing more serious than a few bites and puncture wounds. Snakes that are regularly and properly handled when young are less apt to be nervous and defensive when older.

Some experienced snake keepers suggest a routine of moving your snake to a different cage for feeding, the theory being that if the snake is always fed in the same cage, it will learn to associate the opening of the cage door with food, and may go into "hunting mode" whenever the cage is opened, striking at the keeper by mistake. In my experience, however, this has never been a problem. Since the cage door must be opened regularly for such non- feeding tasks as cleaning and watering, most snakes will not come to associate cage-opening with feeding. In addition, the "feed in another cage" strategy is not workable for very large constrictors, who should not be handled more than necessary and definitely not when they are hungry. Mistaken attacks on the part of the snake can usually be avoided if you use long-handled tongs for feeding and do not allow prey scent to get on you or your clothing.

Even if you do not intend to feed the snake, you should carefully watch its body language if you must go near it. If the snake begins to approach you stealthily, with tongue flickering and his eyes rivetted on you, he is looking for prey and may be potentially aggressive. If, on the other hand, he draws back and pulls his neck in an S-shape, while hissing or breathing heavily, he is afraid and may strike at you in self-defense. Most large snakes will only use their coils to constrict a potential food item--in self-defense, they will strike with the teeth in the manner typical of all snakes. A bite from a large boid is an intensely painful affair, however, and is nothing to trifle with. Moreover, once the snake has struck, he may be enticed into a feeding response and begin to throw coils around you, especially if you begin to struggle.

In short, a number of simple but vital rules can be laid out for keeping a large boa or python:

(1) Never handle a large snake alone.

(2) Never allow the scent of a prey animal to get on or near you when handling a large snake.

(3) Never allow a large snake to free roam in a room occupied by humans.

(4) Always keep your large snake in a securely locked escape-proof enclosure, accessible only by you.

If these rules are not followed, the results can be tragic. In the New York case cited above, for instance, several of the basic safety rules were broken, and the keeper paid for his mistake with his life. According to published reports, the 19-year old snake keeper took his 13-foot Burmese python across the street to buy a live chicken for feeding. When he returned to his apartment, he put the snake on the floor in the hallway, opened the door, and took the box containing the chicken into the room. As he stepped back outside, the snake, seeing the movement and catching the scent of live prey, apparently mistook its owner for a chicken and struck at him, constricting and killing him. Alone, the victim was unable to escape the snake's coils.

Such highly publicized attacks by large snakes usually lead to a flood of local regulations and ordinances which restrict ownership of these animals. Many municipalities have already banned possession of any snake larger than eight or ten feet. A few have banned ownership of any boa or python species, no matter what adult size it reaches. In my local area, the city of Allentown, Pennsylvania, outlaws the possession of any "constricting snake"- -which makes even such harmless colubrids as king snakes and corn snakes technically illegal.

The problem of attacks by captive snakes should, however, be kept in perspective. Of the tens of thousands of large constrictors maintained in captivity, only a handful have ever attacked their owners. A much higher number of people are killed by German Shepards or Rottweilers every year than have ever been killed by large pet snakes. Nevertheless, attacks by large snakes are inevitably sensationalized and distorted by the media, and generate publicity that is detrimental to herpetoculture as a whole. Handle your snakes carefully and properly, and above all use common sense, and you can present an example of responsible reptile keeping.

-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

So, what in God's Holy Name did YOU do when the SNAKE coiled around YOU!

Is it true you can throw warm water to make them release??? Forget where I heard or saw that...

The warm water trick works sometimes. It is a good idea to have rubbing alcohol handy as well, to dump in the snakes mouth.

First and foremost, do NOT panic.

As the snake begins to constrict you, you must move your body in such a way that it avoids any coils being thrown around your neck or torso. If alone this is critically important. You have to keep your wits about you. Every time this has happened to me, I was fortunate not to panic. The snake, if you can not get it off you, will eventually realize you are not a food source and release both it's mouth and grip.

This could take as long as 30 minutes.

It is best to avoid this type of interaction all together by following certain protocols.

But if you are placed in a scenario where you are not alone. I suggest letting the snake wrap your arm or leg if permissible, once they get you , it may be sometime before you can get them off. Keeping your wits about you and not panicking could mean the difference between life and death.

The protocol I currently follow do not allow full body constricting to occur, I do, almost always, service my large pythons alone.

So spray bottles with rubbing alcohol should be in a few places in the snake room. One must control the situation as much as possible during an attack.
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Do they in anyway ingest the alcohol??? Is it bad for them????

Why do you think you were struck/constricted???

Bad Move???

Smell of prey items on you????

Python PMS????????????? LOL

The alcohol doesn't hurt them long term, I assume it burns the lining of their mouth and is enough of an irritant to disrupt this type of behavior. This can, in most instances, quickly send the snake out of it's predatory mode. ( I have never used this technique first hand, and yes, I have rubbing alcohol in at least two different locations, which is accessible within 5 feet in every direction).

I recently used the "hot water trick" on a near 7 foot Macklots' python. The bite was definitely my fault, because I forgot to break her feeding response prior to reaching into her enclosure.( note: there was no "food smells" on me or in the environment around me ).

While reaching into the enclosure to service her water bowl, is when, very quickly I might add, the snake struck and constricted, it was easy for me to control the snake under this particular set of circumstances, what in fact, I will allow the snake to constrict, in other words, it's not getting itself around my neck

I managed to confine the predatory attack to only my arm, I then, walked slowly and calmly to the bathroom tub. It ( the hot water ) worked instantaneously, and pushed the snake into a "flight behavior" type of response. This is what happened, It made the Macklots' let go of both the "mouth/biting" and its "constriction response", then it resorted to it's "innate" flight response behavior. ( it did in the set of circumstances involving this particular Macklots')

This experience, made me reevaluate, all of my husbandry practices.

I now treat every snake as if they could end my life. I have adopted a zero % complacency for all snakes, this was to remind myself not to "backslide" to the "stupidity of my past" in regards to the larger constrictors and the proper husbandry protocol used while caring for them. I once upon a time, ( story telling mode ) had a 5 foot dumeril boa grab me by my hand. If that snake had somehow gotten itself around my neck, I am quite certain, it would have made me pass out or even possibly worse, like as in "kill me", before I could get it off. It would have had more than enough ample time to cause me to loose consciousness and possibly die. I am comparing how long it took me to get it off my arm to if this scenario was about being around my neck. They are abnormally strong for their length and girth, so are JCP in my experience.

So therefor, even smaller boas and pythons need to be treated with respect in regards to their possible predatory & survival capabilities.

Another rule implemented in regards to my husbandry polices.

Never put a snake, any snake, around your neck for any reason, besides their feeding responses, snakes sometimes also constrict when they become startled by some unforeseeable outside stimuli and or to also get a firm grip on what they consider a "perch" for them, think about it, they do not like falling any more than a 80' year old woman likes falling down a flight of stairs.

These bites/attacks where almost always related to the snakes feeding response not being properly broken before servicing their enclosure. No "food smells" are necessary to initiate a feeding response. The snakes are conditioned to think they are getting fed by associating certain things with feeding time. ( like opening the cage door for instance ). All my snakes are now also conditioned with a snake hook to let them know it's not feeding time. All it takes is a light/slight tap on the head region to let them know that cage maintenance is about to transpire, never use the hook during feeding trials.

It does not take the snakes long to figure out what's going to "now" happen if they are properly conditioned over time.

I did get wrapped up by a 14 foot burm when I was 14 years old, I was feeding the snake by hand and it grabbed me instead of the rat. I was fortunate and remained calm and had made the snake maneuver around my arm, waist, and legs, avoiding my neck area in the process. ( my own survival response to being attacked ). I yelled to my 2 older brothers who came down into my room (cellar dweller) and tried to take the snake off of me. I made them stop trying because it was making matters even worse. I told them in a very calm voice ( good thing they went into shock and not me) to just sit here in case the snake somehow get's the upper hand, eventually after about 30 minutes, the snake realized I was not a food source and released me as quickly as it grabbed me.

I now NEVER feed any snake regardless of size or species by hand any more.

I also use certain protocols while feeding so me and the snake have no direct contact during their feeding regimen.

I condition all my snakes to know the difference between cage maintenance and feeding time, they learn rather easily, one must know their snakes individual behaviors. I currently have two pythons who's feeding response can not be broken easily and these two snakes must be approached with the utmost care. I however, am not implying that, I am being careless with the others snakes in my collection.

All incidents that transpired where my fault because I deviated or had no such protocols in place at the time of the incident.

I have had several aggression bites that where not related to the snakes feeding response. The snakes in these instances where utilizing their fight or flight behavior. These are usually a quick grab and release ( defensive strike ), these still can cause significant damage if you pull away during the bite. They can and will sometimes also use constriction during these types of incidents, difference being, they let go of you easier without the added feeding response.

So I can see people making mistakes, I learned the hard way before all this Internet stuff was around. There was not any information sources like we have today. I spent my time reading everything I could and searching for people like Jeff Clark to learn from.

I must say that I was uninformed as a younger reptile keeper, I had a lot of snakes and other animals that probably should not have be kept by younger individuals, I was by the WAY considered kind of ODD in comparison to most other kids with a passing fancy in regards to Reptiles & Amphibians. I captured my first snake by 4 years old. My parents did not clean or feed any of my animals, as a matter a fact, my mom refused to enter my room for any reason.

I have learned through trial and error and really enjoy the wealth of information available to the neophyte snake keeper.

Yes, I have been waiting a long time to use the word "neophyte" in a sentence, gatta make some use of that Word Wealth book they MADE me read in the 9th grade. I have used that word only twice since 1983.

hehe, reminds me of something I got suspended for in the 9th grade. The teacher asked me to use the word Zephyr in a sentence.

I passed gas and like a zephyr it permeated my nares.

teacher flipped, and yelled at me.

I asked her, "What the [Bleep] is your problem ? and added, "I not only properly used that word in a sentence, I threw in a metaphor for good measure."

As, expected, the Principal took the teachers side.

Frank received 5 days of "out of school" suspension.

WTF ?

I think I may have figured out what the problem was, that wasn't a metaphor, it was a simile, damn literary devices.

BTW admitting those particular events during my childhood was and is somewhat embarrassing to me.

But I rather tell them to help others avoid a set of circumstances that has the potential for disaster.

Note : I received a bite from a good sized Hermit Crab that was the third "most painful" bite I have ever received from any animal.

The next painful bite I remember may be due to the fact that I was so young at the time.( 11 or 12 ) I got bit from some type of blind snake in Puerto Rico, it ( area of bite )turned bright red and felt like I was envenomated like when you get stung by a bee,wasp, and or in my life's circumstances a scorpion. ( I have been bit dozens of times by Pandinus imperator ).

All time worst was a Vietnamese Centipede:

I got bit by one of these, I have been tagged by reticulated pythons over 15 feet, that little damn invert made that seem pleasant. My hand swelled up in less than ten minutes to 2.5 it's normal size, my entire hand felt like it was in a furnace. There where red lines shooting up my arm. Within two days my hand was back to normal, except a small amount of damaged tissue. Believe it or not, it helped (temporarily) with my carpel tunnel syndrome. There may be some significant uses for their poison that science has yet learned and or discovered, someone must be working with them in this capacity. Sorry for the OT, but you reminded me of an unpleasant experience, my own fault it got me. I was servicing the enclosure and mistook the head for the tail, hence that certainly was not the tail end. What struck me as UNREAL was the speed in which the poison took effect. A few benydryl did the trick and all symptoms disappeared with in 2 days time, except for a small amount of necrosis at the injection site.

Last but not least...

I received 9 stitches from a not so pleasant encounter with a 4 foot speckled Caiman and the notorious death roll. Not too painful, but it still sucked.

Ouch!!!
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

One of my reticulated pythons gets extremely high strung during his breeding season, feeling his oats, he try's body slamming me and throws himself in my direction while at the same time trying to constrict me. He also slams his water bowl when I clean his enclosure, slides up to it and slams the side and flips the water bowl into midair, hitting the top of his 6 foot vision cage. And since gravity works pretty well at my house, his water gets spilled all over the place requiring another cleaning. Now I wait for him to mellow out before replacing his water bowl. This is only from the end of August to the end of November, then he is a pleasure to work with again, so I guess it could be compared to PMS in woman. A better comparative analysis would be "beer balls" in men!!!
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

..
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Frank,
...Is Lenny still around on the reptile sites on the internet? I used to argue with him somewhere a long time ago. It may have been back on rec.pets.herp newsgroup. That place was crazy.
Jeff

>>keepers.
>>
>>PLAYING WITH THE BIG BOYS: HANDLING LARGE CONSTRICTORS
>>
>>by Lenny Flank
>>
>>Last year, a 19-year old man was killed in New York City while preparing to feed his 13-foot Burmese python. In January 1994, a 6 foot python escaped from its owner in Santa Rosa, California, by crawling down the toilet, causing a panic among residents in the apartment building. In July 1993, a 15-year old boy in Commerce City, Colorado, was attacked and killed by an 11-foot Burmese Python. In June 1991, a nine year old boy in Long Beach, California, was bitten on the foot and coiled by a 12-foot pet python. In August 1984, a large python escaped its cage in Solvay, New York, causing a panic for nine days before it was found in the ceiling. In November 1980, a seven-month old girl in Dallas was killed when the family's 8-foot python escaped its cage and crawled into the crib, smothering the infant.
>>
>>Every time an incident like this occurs, the consequences for herpetoculturalists are severe. The fear and misunderstanding which surrounds reptiles (and their keepers) is increased, authorities become more likely to pass uninformed laws in an attempt to "do something" about the "problem", and the efforts of responsible herpers to educate the public about these animals are undermined and crippled.
>>
>>The problem of fatalities and attacks by captive snakes is very small, but is growing steadily. Between the years of 1978 and 1988, according to the American Federation of Herpetoculturalists, there were four reported instances of amateur keepers killed by their snakes, and only one of these involved a Burmese python (the others involved Reticulated pythons). A check of the New York Times herp between 1970 and 1992 turned up only one report of a fatality involving a captive python. In the five years since then, however, at least two deaths and a number of attacks have been reported, nearly all involving Burmese pythons. This appears to be a direct result of the growing popularity of captive Burms. Inexperienced snake keepers and large potentially aggressive constrictors make a particularly dangerous combination. The sad fact that many thousands of hatchling Burmese pythons have been purchased in the pet trade--most of them by people who are inexperienced and unprepared to deal with them once they reach a large size--means that the number of incidents involving these snakes will only increase in the future. Everyone who has or who may obtain in the future one of the large constrictors, therefore, must be aware of all the safety precautions that are necessary to keep these snakes, and must practice all of these safeguards until they become second nature.
>>
>>Only five species of constricting snake get large enough to pose a serious threat to human life. These are the Reticulated Python (Python reticulatus), the Amethystine Python (Morelia amethistina) , the Green Anaconda (Eunectes murinus), the Indian Python (Python molurus--the Burmese python P.m. bivittata is a subspecies of the Indian) and the African Rock Python (Python sebae). Only two of these, the Burmese and the Reticulated, are commonly found in the pet trade. The Reticulated python can reach a maximum length of over 30 feet; the Burmese python can reach lengths up to 20 feet. The common Boa Constrictor (Boa constrictor) has never been demonstrated to have ever killed a human being, but it can reach adult lengths near ten feet and can sometimes be difficult and unsafe to handle. For purposes of this discussion, then, any constricting snake that reaches an adult size of eight feet or more should be considered potentially dangerous.
>>
>>Because Burmese pythons are tough and undemanding snakes, and are reliable feeders, they are sometimes recommended as "good snakes for beginners". The fact is, however, that they are large and powerful animals that grow quickly, reaching a potentially-dangerous size of eight to ten feet and a weight of fifty pounds within two years. Some people have attempted to control the snake's growth by feeding it only a limited amount of food--a practice that is harmful to the health of the animal, and also produces a snake that is always hungry and sometimes aggressive. Despite what you may hear, Burms are not suitable for beginners, and should not be kept until you have a few years of snake keeping experience to your credit.
>>
>>The first priority in keeping large constrictors is to make sure they are under strict control at all times. Housing for a big boid is a much more complicated affair than it is for a corn or king snake; it is more akin to the requirements for keeping a venomous snake. The enclosure for a boa or python must be spacious and extraordinarily strong. Large snakes are immensely powerful and can push their way out of all but the strongest cages. The cage should be locked at all times, and if possible should itself be within an escape-proof room that is also locked. Very large snakes can be kept in a room of their own, or a walk-in closet which has been converted into a snake cage. These must be kept securely locked at all times. Be aware that boas and pythons can push their way through windows or screens and escape.
>>
>>Under absolutely no circumstances, however, should a large constrictor ever be allowed to free roam in a room that is occupied by humans. Even though a snake may have been around humans since its birth, it is still a wild animal, with all its natural behaviors and instincts intact. If, for whatever reason, the snake suddenly feels threatened, or if it momentarily confuses its keepers with food, it can attack suddenly and unpredictibly.
>>
>>A number of rules must be followed in order to safely handle large constrictor snakes. While most boas and pythons are not usually aggressive, they are potentially lethal animals whose power and strength must be respected. No one should ever attempt to handle a large snake (eight feet or more) by himself. This includes even such routine tasks as changing the water or cleaning the cage. A rough guide recommended by most experienced snake keepers is to have one handler for every five feet of snake (every three feet is suggested for nervous or aggressive species such as Reticulated Pythons or Anacondas).
>>
>>When handling a large constrictor, never allow any of the coils to wrap around your torso or your neck. Boas and pythons are extremely powerful animals, and can cause problems for you even if they are not attempting to constrict, simply by hanging on. If startled or frightened, the snake's reaction will be to tighten its grip--which can present immediate and serious problems if the snake has you coiled in a vulnerable spot.
>>
>>Feeding time is an especially dangerous moment to be near a large constrictor snake. Although Burmese pythons are not aggressive animals, they are very eager feeders, and will often strike and constrict potential prey that is obviously too big for them to swallow. Because they have poor vision, snakes distinguish prey almost entirely by scent, and can easily confuse prey and keeper. As far as the snake is concerned, if you are moving and have the odor of food on or near you, you are probably food. The feeding response is largely reflexive, and the snake, if it thinks you are a potential meal, will instinctively constrict and kill you before realizing that you are too big to swallow. By the time the snake realizes its error, it will be too late for you. Nearly all fatal accidents involving large constrictors are the result of unsafe feeding procedures, known to experienced snakers as "Stupid Feeding Errors (SFE's)".
>>
>>For this reason, great care should be taken to avoid confusing the snake during feeding time. Do not ever approach a large constrictor after having handled any potential prey animal (live or dead) or if any potential prey animal is in the area. Potential prey animals that may trigger a feeding response include virtually any warm-blooded creature, such as dogs, cats, rodents, birds and rabbits. In general, live prey animals should be avoided, and large snakes should be fed pre-killed prey exclusively. Dead prey animals intended as food should never be handled with the bare hands. Instead, keepers should use tongs or long-handled forceps to offer prey animals from a safe distance. It is a good idea to wash your hands thoroughly with soap before handling a large constrictor, to remove any trace of prey scent, and to never attempt to handle a large snake that is in a feeding mood.
>>
>>Potentially dangerous species of snakes should be obtained when they are still very young. This allows the keeper and the snake to learn each other's habits and idiosyncracies. At this stage, the keeper can learn to handle the snake and avoid Stupid Feeding Errors while risking nothing more serious than a few bites and puncture wounds. Snakes that are regularly and properly handled when young are less apt to be nervous and defensive when older.
>>
>>Some experienced snake keepers suggest a routine of moving your snake to a different cage for feeding, the theory being that if the snake is always fed in the same cage, it will learn to associate the opening of the cage door with food, and may go into "hunting mode" whenever the cage is opened, striking at the keeper by mistake. In my experience, however, this has never been a problem. Since the cage door must be opened regularly for such non- feeding tasks as cleaning and watering, most snakes will not come to associate cage-opening with feeding. In addition, the "feed in another cage" strategy is not workable for very large constrictors, who should not be handled more than necessary and definitely not when they are hungry. Mistaken attacks on the part of the snake can usually be avoided if you use long-handled tongs for feeding and do not allow prey scent to get on you or your clothing.
>>
>>Even if you do not intend to feed the snake, you should carefully watch its body language if you must go near it. If the snake begins to approach you stealthily, with tongue flickering and his eyes rivetted on you, he is looking for prey and may be potentially aggressive. If, on the other hand, he draws back and pulls his neck in an S-shape, while hissing or breathing heavily, he is afraid and may strike at you in self-defense. Most large snakes will only use their coils to constrict a potential food item--in self-defense, they will strike with the teeth in the manner typical of all snakes. A bite from a large boid is an intensely painful affair, however, and is nothing to trifle with. Moreover, once the snake has struck, he may be enticed into a feeding response and begin to throw coils around you, especially if you begin to struggle.
>>
>>In short, a number of simple but vital rules can be laid out for keeping a large boa or python:
>>
>>
>>(1) Never handle a large snake alone.
>>
>>(2) Never allow the scent of a prey animal to get on or near you when handling a large snake.
>>
>>(3) Never allow a large snake to free roam in a room occupied by humans.
>>
>>(4) Always keep your large snake in a securely locked escape-proof enclosure, accessible only by you.
>>
>>
>>If these rules are not followed, the results can be tragic. In the New York case cited above, for instance, several of the basic safety rules were broken, and the keeper paid for his mistake with his life. According to published reports, the 19-year old snake keeper took his 13-foot Burmese python across the street to buy a live chicken for feeding. When he returned to his apartment, he put the snake on the floor in the hallway, opened the door, and took the box containing the chicken into the room. As he stepped back outside, the snake, seeing the movement and catching the scent of live prey, apparently mistook its owner for a chicken and struck at him, constricting and killing him. Alone, the victim was unable to escape the snake's coils.
>>
>>Such highly publicized attacks by large snakes usually lead to a flood of local regulations and ordinances which restrict ownership of these animals. Many municipalities have already banned possession of any snake larger than eight or ten feet. A few have banned ownership of any boa or python species, no matter what adult size it reaches. In my local area, the city of Allentown, Pennsylvania, outlaws the possession of any "constricting snake"- -which makes even such harmless colubrids as king snakes and corn snakes technically illegal.
>>
>>The problem of attacks by captive snakes should, however, be kept in perspective. Of the tens of thousands of large constrictors maintained in captivity, only a handful have ever attacked their owners. A much higher number of people are killed by German Shepards or Rottweilers every year than have ever been killed by large pet snakes. Nevertheless, attacks by large snakes are inevitably sensationalized and distorted by the media, and generate publicity that is detrimental to herpetoculture as a whole. Handle your snakes carefully and properly, and above all use common sense, and you can present an example of responsible reptile keeping.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research
>>

I have seen his name answering questions in various Veterinarian chat's.

He does have a web page, but I have no idea if it's currently updated.

That article is ALL over the Internet.

I used to read rec.pets.herp, that was crazy just like you said, people love to argue back and forth. Also, I noticed people asked extremely stupid questions on that venue. There was other boards as well, cannot remember the name.

Lenny Flank

-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

some close calls and nasty bites. The worst bite I ever had was from a retic but nowhere near the size that your talking about. She was about 8 foot at the time and it mean as hell. Got me right on the hand because of my own stupidity.
The most embarasing bite I have ever taken was last year and right in the temple by a normally calm male, who'd become aggressvie during breeding season. I just let me guard down to much being used to his normal temperment. The embarassing part of it was the fact that another breeder and his wife were over to buy two litters of hypo BCI that I'd just had and it happened with them watching.
I guess getting bit makes for some stories at any rate,
Milo

happened over 15 years ago. The Macklots' was the most recent.

You never should get complacent when dealing with these animals. I am so much more careful these days. I learned a lot the tough way.

My seventeen foot male "feels his oats" throughout the breeding season, and his behavior goes back to placid after the season passes.

You can never be too careful, especially if you do not like the idea of becoming a statistic.
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I bet it is nerve racking handling your 17 footer while he's "feeling his oats". Thats a lot of snake! Especially if he doesn't want to be handled. What does one that size weigh?

good question, I have never weighed him, he is kind of lean because he is a male. He is a major pain in the behind during his breeding season. It is funny how he lifts a large coil off the ground and body slams stuff, me included lol, luckily he doesn't bite. He did manage to grab my hand once, I looked in his eyes and flicked him on his head with my free hand and he instantly let go, was kind of funny actually.
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

and when I flicked him, using my thumb and middle finger kinda flick, he put his head down ( submissive behavior ) and released my hand.

He is from the "original" Karl Herman line.

darker than a lot that where outbreed to yellow heads, I got one of those as well, supposedly from the barker line before they disseminated all their larger pythons.
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I have a feeling if I flicked a big snake on the head for bitting me I'd probably get bit twice.
Lucky for me most of my regular biters are rosys. No damage caused by them. I don't have a whole lot of experiece with the large pythons. The retic that got my hand so bad belonged to my roomate at the time who kept pythons. He lived upstairs in the house and a had a full snake room next to his bedroom and my bedroom and snakeroom were in the basement. He was actually scared of the retic and I had to take it out for him everytime he cleaned the cage. Thats why I got bit instead of him. That sucker was mean and out to get me.
Milo

I am the alpha male around here. I got my first retic around 1980. I only knew one other person keeping them. Silverhead Malaysian imports. Mean little bugger!! He got killed during a breeding trial with a 25 foot female, in 1995, very sad for me, but he fertilized 96 eggs. I still have lineage from him in my collection. That female just passed this year, she was almost 30 years old, she laid very small eggs, on average after first clutch was 70. Oddly the babies came out small but grew into TRUE giants, males in excess of 20 feet come from this bloodline. Another female retic (ambon yellow head) only laid 35 eggs on average, so fecundity is hereditary.

Some of my original males progeny....and close relatives...

Only time I ever cried when a snake died...I have not named a snake since, his name was Alice.

etiology of the name Alice.

the Alice Cooper legend :

Vincent Furnier was the reincarnation of a young woman of the very same name--a woman who had been burned alive at the stake hundreds of years ago for being a witch!

here's a song for my beloved Alice ( RIP )

( sinister smile )

Fresh Blood

All the neighbours never see me
But they wonder why I walk around at night
he gets hungry - I go hunting
In the moonlit streets
For somebody that's right

Fresh blood, a sanguinary feast
Is all he's living for
And he craves it more and more
Showgirls, businessmen in suits in the midnight rain
If they walk alone are never seen again

In the paper, seems a florist
Found in Lincoln Park, died of some anemia
No one raped her, poor Doloris,
Just detained her and drained her on the spot

Fresh blood, a sanguinary feast
Is all he's living for
And he craves it more and more
Old men, ladies of the night walking in the rain
If they walk alone are never seen again

Fresh blood it goes through me, flows through me
Fresh blood inside of me, cry to me
Fresh blood it goes through me, flows through me
Fresh blood inside of me, cry to me

No one calls and no one visits
We're like a couplet out of Desolation Row
We don't want them to want to know us
'Cause when they do, they get a little bit too close

Fresh blood, a sanguinary feast is all I'm living for
and I crave it more and more
Bad girls, cops on the beat in the midnight rain
If they're out alone, are never seen again

Fresh blood it goes through me, flows through me
Fresh blood inside of me, cry to me
Fresh blood it goes through me, flows through me
Fresh blood inside of me, cry to me
Fresh blood it goes through me, flows through me
Fresh blood inside of me, cry to me
Fresh blood it goes through me, flows through me
Fresh blood inside of me, cry to me
Fresh blood it goes through me, flows through me
Fresh blood inside of me, cry to me, cry to me
Fresh blood it goes through me, flows through me
Fresh blood inside of me, cry to me, cry to me

-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Wow 96 eggs! That a lot of little mouths to feed.
Question, how big of a cage does a 25 foot female get housed in? Thats huge. My oldest and biggest redtail is 10 feet and 40 pounds and I thought that was a lot of snake to handle.

in a home made cage that was 8 feet long, 4 foot deep, and 4 foot high. A friend of mine got her in a pet store in the late 70's early 80's. She was tame believe it or not, no tiger gene around in these days, my male was the type that retic's their notorious reputations, he was AWESOME looking, but had issues with his demeanor lol. She was a mainland most likely from Malaysia.
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Once I had a burmese (young, only about 5ft) who got IBD (which I did not know at the time of being bitten) But anyway, she got crazier and crazier. One night I went to clean a clump of poop out of her cage and she bites me and holds on for an hour! I called my uncle(who is a vet) and asked him if he knew of any special methods for making snakes let go. He wanted to chop her head off, and I wouldn't let him, so we did an internet search and found out that it I pour a little vodka on my hand she will let go. I got that info here on kingsnake.com and have come here with all my questions ever since. That was my worst bite.
-----
-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

no not get bitten, sounds so easy. But yet, I know, it will not be the last time it happens to me.
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

hi folks many thanks for your replies

reading what happens to you folks ,realise i got off lightly!

Did manage not to pull hand away ,so injury extremely slight as she is not a large snake

Squirting cold water in her face got her to let go

know it was my own fault for startling her

just made the mistake of getting too complacent ,because of her usuall very good temprement

great news i do not need a shot

Of course I'm thinking Tequilla!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
21.29 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Name your poison, drink of choice. For those that don't drink hard stuff (by choice) what do you drink?

Myself, I like a good tequilla, Known for my margaritas. My fav recipe:

I use a 1 liter mixing bottle and like em over the rocks.

300 ML Herradura Anejo - smoooooth tasty tequilla
600 ML Cuervo margarita mix - hey it's easy
50 ML Triple sec
50 ML Cointreau
50 ML Rose's lime juice

(I know, that's 1050ML, I fill partway into the neck)

Mix, chill and serve over the rocks....MMMMMM tasty!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
21.29 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I drank many different kinds of alcohol.

beer was not enough for me, I drank a lot of jack daniels, Romano sambuca, pravda vodka, Puerto Rican rum, jagermeister.

Before I managed to stop, on average, I drank 12 Budweiser beers and up towards 10 shots of hard=liqueur a clip.

I also used to go on binges for month(s) at a time.

One month would be beer and flavored vodka shooters.

Next month, No beer, replaced w/ mike's hard lemonade, tried everyone available.

Insane way to live, if you like calling the feeling of death warmed over, living, I was living it up!!

Before I stopped all together I said to myself, you should keep track of just the Romano sambuca shooters you drink for 6 months. Filled up more than one 35 gallon garbage can.

These shooters were 3.00 a clip. ( didn't like buying the big bottle, because I have drank them in the past in under 2 hours time ) well after 6 months I tallied them up and there was 2009 shooters, yes that's $6027.00 just on Romano sambuca alone, never mind everything else I had drank in the same 6 month period of time. Ok shooters where approximately 1.5 shots per bottle, so that's 3013.5 shots of Romano sambuca in just 6 months.

After poisoning myself for like 7 years straight. I decided I needed to stop all together, I have not felt this good physically in quite a few years.

My current motto is this:

One is too many and a thousand is never enough!!!

If I continued to drink, one of three things would happen or more likely all 3 in a variable sequence.

1. Institutionalized
2. Jail
3. Death

So I chose life instead

No sense in killing myself to live.

Also my collection is looking better than they have in a long time. I spend time waiting for somethin' to crap these days.
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Honestly I do!! It really does take a LOT of courage to not only admit you have a problem with alcohol but to do something about it. I did think of you when I hijacked the thread and I do hope in some wierd way this helps, being able to discuss with your friends. I have a friend that does go camping. Also a non-drinking alcoholic. Seems to help him sometimes to talk about it and yes I drink in front of him, he wouldn't have it any other way.

Many, heck probably most of us are occaisional recreational drinkers. I myself will go months with no liquor at all. My one true drinking "time" is a couple of margarita's in the evening around the campfire.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
21.29 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

As a topic of discussion, it does not phase me in the least.

Actually it " helps " reminds me I am a recovering alcoholic / drunkard and should not ever pick up the bottle.

I wouldn't want to wake up in a hospital with a catheter shoved down my Johnson again.

What happened?

Where am I?

How did I get hear?

Nurse said, they ( linden police ) picked you up off the street and brought you here because you where giving them a "hard time".

That type of scenario reminds me of, one of the many reasons I should not drink.

Apparently, I am now "allergic" to alcohol.

Therefore, I stay clear of the "gin mill".

-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Yeah, as my friend puts it he has to remind himself he is a "non-drinking" alcoholic and it'll only take one drink to go back down the wrong path.

I guess there is no "cure" only abstinence!!

Have you had a hard time staying on the wagon since making your decision to live?

Tell me to stop if/when you want me to.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
21.29 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

once you get to the point of taking sobriety seriously, one applies himself more enthusiastically.

I have had no trouble ( staying sober ) with this since I finally had enough and needed to dry out for myself, sobriety is and has to be a selfish life style change, you can't quit for anyone but yourself. I don't have a problem not drinking, the problems start, once I pick up. I relapsed at least 10 times before "getting serious" about my sobriety.

It ( drinking )crosses my mind occasionally, but I do not entertain the thought very long.

One must be cognizant of the "stinkin thinkin" that is trying to drag you back towards the insanity of trying to be a functional alcoholic, which in my case is an oxymoron.

-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Again, I applaud you for your efforts and even more for your successes!!!

I know it was not easy as your relapses show. But once you really, and I mean really, decided to dry out, it appears you've made the change!!

I used to smoke when I was in high school, it was cool and all my friends did it. My best friend would quit every week or two and blame me for his taking it right back up. I told him I was not ready to quit, so why try. One day I was ready and did quit, haven't picked up a cigarette since. If I got it right, that was 27 years ago. My friend's still smoking
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
21.29 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

smoking sucks both literally & figerativly.

I smoke 2 packs a day.
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Thanks and like you said and I was agreeing, you have to be ready to make the life change for yourself, that's the only time it will ever work.

My mom was a 3plus pack a day smoker for ever, Then she needed a hip replacement and the doctors informed her her smoking would end up with her body rejecting the replacement hip. She finally quit, she chose being able to walk and get around over the smoking.

>>smoking sucks both literally & figerativly.
>>
>>I smoke 2 packs a day.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research
>>
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
21.29 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

that make those life choices. We can encourage and nudge them in the right direction.

Ultimately it all rests squarely on the shoulders of the one person truely responsible for the change, the one going through it!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
21.29 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

...
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Occasionally I'll go for Corona if I feel like spending more but I rarely drink hard liqour anymore. The funny thing is my parents own a nightclub and even when I go there I stick to cheap beer.

ewww i feel bad for your body keystone is nasty!!!!

It's an aquired taste I quess, but I love it. Actually a step up from what I drank when I was younger. Used to be a Black Label and OLd E guy. Then it was Bud for a while, but now I can't stand that stuff. I mix it up now an then, I'm a big fan of most Mexican beers, but for the price Keystone is defiantely my old faithfull.
I live in an area that is huge with Micro-brews but I have yet to find one of those I like.

Haha that reminds me of my entire freshman year of college. It was always a 30 pack of keystone....man I'm glad I got past that phase. Now I'm on to better things (i.e. coors light and bud light)

That funny, I drank a lot of bud 40's in college and Coors Extra Gold. 30 packs of course.

Coors is nasty too if i had to go for a light beer it miller lite baby since i used to work at a miller beer distrutor . and a good mexican beer is dos equis and tecate. and as for corona Sol is way better tasting.

Sol tastes watered down to me and I don't really care for Tecate. But I do enjoy Dos Equis, as long as its the green bottle. Also Pacifico is always a good choice. I was in Mexico shortly after I had graduated highschool and found a store that would sell me 36 Pacifico for 10 American dollars. That made for a great weekend.

If I ever found a store willing to do that (not to mention if I was underage in the U.S.) You better believe I'd buy about 10 of those cases.

Yeah we stocked up on what we could carry.

yea the green bottle is the special lager my favorite and the brown bottle is the amber lager.. they both taste even better from a keg plus sol is great from a keg

My current margarita recipe:

1.5 oz tequila (curently using Sauza Hornitos)
.5 to 1.0 oz grand marnier or triple sec
1 oz orange juice
2 oz fresh lime juice
1/8 tsp brown sugar

shake well and serve over ice.
-----
Mike

2.4 BRB
1.2 Spotted Python
1.0 Cal. King

Beer I would have to say coors light and bud light are my regulars. If I want something a little better I can always go for Mexican Beers (xx, pacifico, sol) or New Belgium Beers (fat tire,skinny dip etc.)

As far as hard alcohol is concerned Seagram's Seven hands down is my favorite whiskey when mixed with sprite or coke. I also enjoy drinking Mojitos. For anyone who has never had a mojito I would higly reccomend trying one!

Actually i did have a (once she was safely tucked away )

stiff whiskey ,just for the shock