Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In regards to the post by Draybar (below):

For us newbies, what usually causes kinks?

Also, does anyone have pix of newborns and adults who have kinks?

Thx

>>In regards to the post by Draybar (below):
>>
>>For us newbies, what usually causes kinks?
>>
>>Also, does anyone have pix of newborns and adults who have kinks?
>>
>>Thx

It is most commonly believed that incubation temps that are too high can cause kinks.
In my case it must have been heat spikes I wasn't aware of. It took those two 67 days to hatch which would indicate a decent temperature average. The first clutch of the season was 7 perfect little babies and they, oddly enough, started hatching on day 66.
If the temps jumped up into the 90's a couple of times then that could be the culprit.
I incubate my clutches on the shelves in one of my racks. I have the thermostat set at 80 F.
The house is air conditioned and the room where the snakes are kept does get warm but never over 80.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

i believe it has more to do with the calcium available to the neonate while its in the egg, and possibly temps. ive noticed babies hatch that have no kinks that lets say dont eat right away can develop kinks
as well as babies with kinks that do eat right away and the kinks can dissappear. i did a small test last year and incubated seriously low at 78 f and the highest spike was 85 every other year i incubated at 82 with spikes up to 90 and had the same amount or at least average amount of kinks (2-3 out of roughly 25)but on years when my one female would stop eating when gravid the number of nenates with kinks was up near 5-6. so in my instances i would have to lean tword calcium availability to neonates more than temps
adam
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hybrid breeders association
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.3 ghost corns
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 childrens python
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 albino banded cal king
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo

I think there is more than one cause but I think it can be a genetic defect from too much inbreeding resulting in lack of genetic variety in pairings.

How often does kinking pop up in clutches from WC gravid females?

If it is far more rare, that does not isolate the cause, but maybe it would help point us in the right direction.

I think temp spikes might be a cause, but I don't think it is the only cause.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Good theory but I doubt it. Corns are not as closely related (relatively) as you might think. If you have a corn that is an albino or some form of it then you have to realise that it shares a common ancestor with EVERY other albino corn in the country. But there should definately be enough genetic diversity from outcrosses to keep the babies healthy.
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

While that's true, a lot of people buy pairs from the same breeder which means that pair likely is fairly closely related, and the pair it came from may have been fairly closely related.

line breeding is the fastest way to improve the look of a snake, outcrossing tends to result in generic looking snakes that sometimes then require a generation or two of line breeding to get the nice look back.

I'm not saying people shouldn't line breed, but just that it does have its risks - and I think spinal kinks may be one of those risks. I'm also not saying inbreeding is the only cause. But breed two unrelated parents and there is a much bigger gene pool available between the two to make babies than if you breed two syblings. Less genes to choose from means bad genes that exist have a greater chance of being expressed.

I very rarely (only once) find a neonate in the wild with kinks. The one I did find with a kink was in an urban area (a young cal king) and may have been an urban related injury. It died two weeks later, having eaten but never defecated.

Granted - in the wild, snakes will tend to lay where there is a good thermal capacitance to shield the eggs from the extremes (IE underground). So it really doesn't mean much. Could also be that the kinked ones die quickly in the wild.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

>>I think there is more than one cause but I think it can be a genetic defect from too much inbreeding resulting in lack of genetic variety in pairings.
>>
>>How often does kinking pop up in clutches from WC gravid females?
>>
>>If it is far more rare, that does not isolate the cause, but maybe it would help point us in the right direction.
>>
>>I think temp spikes might be a cause, but I don't think it is the only cause.
>>-----

Well when you have a snow corn produced in one city by a local breeder and a cinnamon (emoryi/corn) bred by a breeder in another city and state and breed those snakes for the first time, your inbreeding theory goes out the window. Especially when both animals have bred successfully with other snakes.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

In that case it probably isn't inbreeding, but I think kinks is due to inbreeding more often than people realize.

I know temp spikes can cause it. That's not disputed, it's been demonstrated (at least with Indigo snakes) but there can be more than one cause of a symptom - and if a temp spike wasn't recorded, then genetics is certainly a possibility.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

>>In that case it probably isn't inbreeding, but I think kinks is due to inbreeding more often than people realize.
>>
>>I know temp spikes can cause it. That's not disputed, it's been demonstrated (at least with Indigo snakes) but there can be more than one cause of a symptom - and if a temp spike wasn't recorded, then genetics is certainly a possibility.
>>-----

I had one clutch of seven that was on that same shelf that hatched fine then another clutch of three just hatched yesterday. They were all fine and this clutch was on that same shelf, too.
This leads me to beleive calcium defenciency or something else with the female. I was checking my records and she skipped a couple of meals between being brought out of brumation and laying and although she is four years old she never eats anything larger then a hopper.
maybe she just wasn't quite up to par for the breeding season.
she produced a nice clutch last year with a different male and the male I put with her this season has bred a couple of seasons to another female with great results.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

The Kinks are caused when Ray and Dave Davies make music.

My experiences coincide with Jimmy's. Spikes in temperature cause kinks. Especially when using an incubator and keeping the eggs at 80-something degrees. In nature there are likely to be daytime highs and lows in temperature and using an incubator eliminates this range, keeping temperatures at the upper end.

Since I stopped using an incubator, I've had a less than 1% kink rate. It was far higher when I used a hovabator and experienced a few heat waves. These experiences come from using the same pairings of adult snakes.

Tim

Third Eye

I have incubated several clutches of corn eggs on a temperature cycle -- 90 F day dropping to the mid 70s F at night. No kinks.

All other things being equal, warmer temperature produces faster growth. So I think it is possible that temperature is a contributing factor, but I think there is some other underlying cause. I suspect some nutritional lack, but that needs a lot of work to prove.

Paul Hollander

I have spikes all over the place this year again......78.......touch heater it goes to 88 by the time I get home from work.....stays at 83 for a couple days then drops to 80 for awhile.....then spikes to 88 again and again.....

I heat the whole room.......eggs are on a shelf over the sink at chin level about.......thermometer is right at that level....

I get kinks alot one year and not alot of kinks the next.......I always get some........not always from the same girls or same lines.......

some lines do have them all the time.......meaning it may be genetic in that line I have.......

.......I thinned my girls way down......the skinny girls give me good eggs more than the fat girls.......

.........with too many snakes.....you / I cannot totally babysit them all perfectly........just as well as they let us......

.........
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