Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The Anerythristic Brooksi[actually I believe it is labeled as Floridana] comes from BHB Enterprises. There has been speculation is may be co dominant but that I can not tell you. The babies are very pretty but adults are pretty muddy and lack any speckling like Brooksi usually have. However these guys have cool personality, I really like mine. This pic show a pair and the Anery is het for Ricks Lavender and the Ricks Lavender is het for Anery. This combo makes nice Snows. I am unaware of this morph being bred into anything else yet....... but I bet it makes some different variants

Here's an Axanthic for comparison, much brighter and full of speckles.

Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

"I am unaware of this morph being bred into anything else yet....... but I bet it makes some different variants"

I was wondering if anyone had tried breeding the anery to a hypo to try for the "ghost" look. Or has this been done with the axanthic?

Thanks Tom! I appreciate the help.
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-Robert-

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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

1.1 Lampropeltus getulus "Brooksi"
0.1 ALbino Argentina Horned Frog

**drools on keyboard**

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Diego

Diego & Tiffany's Zoo:
SNAKES
1.2.0 Corn Snakes (Different morphs)
1.1.0 Hypo Everglades Rat Snakes
1.1.0 Trans-Pecos Rat Snakes
1.1.0 Salt and Pepper Bull Snakes
0.1.0 Amel Pacific Gopher Snake
3.1.0 Sonoran Gopher Snakes
0.1.0 Amel Sonoran Gopher Snake
1.1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnakes
1.0.0 Gray Banded Kingsnake
0.1.1 California Kingsnake
1.1.0 Thayeri Kingsnake
3.2.0 Rosy Boas (Mexican, Temecula, & Mid Baja)
1.1.0 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1.0 Indonesian Dwarf Pacific Boa
1.1.0 Cape York Spotted Pythons
1.0.0 Ball Python
1.1.0 Western Hognoses
0.0.1 Lyre Snake
0.0.1 Glossy Snake

LIZARDS
2.0.0 Bearded Dragons
0.1.0 Eastern Collared Lizard
1.0.0 African Fat-Tail Gecko
0.1.0 Merauke Blue Tongue Skink
1.4.0 Leopard Geckos
1.0.1 Yellow Niger Uromastyx
1.1.0 Chuckwalla
1.4.0 Banded Gecko
0.0.1 Gold Dust Day Gecko
0.0.5 Sandfish

AMPHIBIANS
1.0.1 Green Tree Frogs
1.0.0 Bubbling Kassina
0.0.1 White's Tree Frog
0.0.2 Gold Frogs
1.0.0 Fire Salamander

Hey Tom,
in your practice, how do you define the difference between an axanthic brooks and an anerythristic brooks? I know what the terms imply but not how to separate them on a yellowish snake without a clear, consistent, non recessive red phenotype? I think most allow the terms to be interchangeable (?).
I can remember a number of discussions on this over the past years (most turning nonproductive and ugly) but without any true defining differences...

daveb

I think most use them interchangeably, but I like the fact the BHB is called Anery, and Floridana for that matter because it is way differen't than both lines of Axanthic being Lemke and New England. As babies the Anerys have much nicer white, I really like them. As with all morphs, the majority of people go for the flashiest ones so though this is not a "new" snake.......9 out of 10 people would choose an Axanthic and probably always have...and always will.
Anerys lose their shine, Axanthics don't, in these Kings anyway. I think babies may have some speckling too but it muddies up and the one I pictured is pretty typical of them. You will notice if you look closely at ads some wholesalers and dealers will try to pass these off as Axanthics. I don't even think they really know what they have, as they're just not that popular. And in a sense, they're not really lying. As you just said, many use the two terms interchangeably. So it is a good thing that many people know what line they want, and specifically ask for New England or Lemke.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I don't have any brooksi but always love the pics of yours.

What is the difference between the hypos and peanut butters? Are the PB's like an extreme hypo?

They both look spectacular as adults

Too see baby PBs and baby Hypos would make it easier for you to see the difference. Adults........well Hypos are very variable in degrees of color and there just aren't that many PBs out there yet.
One thing I think people do ont realize is that these awesome Kings could rival Corns and Ball Pythons if more people took the time to raise up multi het babies from combining all these morphs. There's things like the BHB Anery and even producing Hybinos......... these things have been around for a long while and no one has taken the time to really get to the end product. I also see things take time to catch on, I think PBs and Sulfur Lavs will be hot this season. I will try to post more pics soon. I am going on vacation soon and have snakes ready to lay eggs, snakes breeding, and babies to set up as well as secure all ym adults.........so in closing for those who don't think being a colubrid breeder is a real job........please come over and take care of this stuff for me. I need a beer LOL!
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Thanks, and enjoy your vacation

interesting enough, i got some of my first anerythristic/axanthic from bhb, they were llemke bloodlines. i think it is a better method, at least as far as brooksi phase of floridana (BPOF) go to know what bloodline you want, as you have described.
daveb

Dave, what year did you get your axanthics from Brian? I sold him all I produced my first year. He told me he was having some fertility issues......as was the case with most others. I never experienced it with any of my Lemke animals. Man, I do miss the old days. Monthly pricelists were like the JC Penny's Christmas Catalog all over again. Fun times!

Brandon Osborne
Brandon Osborne Reptiles

Brandon,
I think it was '96 or'97. Funny you mention that, it reminded me of the conversation I had with him all thos years ago. Yes, his snakes were having fertility problems at the time. So maybe I ended up with some of your offspring?
Boy, those were good days. New racks and equipment, all sorts of animals coming in and hatching out. This is still a lot of fun but when it is new, it is charged a little bit.
daveb

Nice. Do you think the "Cal king gene" has influence on the anery/axanthic look?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I honestly don't know anything about the "Cal King Gene". Every time it is mentioned I cringe because NO ONE seems to know anything except years back when people took interest in Brooksi that some "FL breeders" did this n that with Cal Kings.
No names
No examples
No pics of anything
Not even a hint of a reference
Now I am not gonna rant at you, I know you know what I am talking about and I always liked you Mark. Plus I know you have that killer Ghost, and honestrly if you found out it had the "Cal King gene" would you like it any less?
Let's remember someone on here brought some attention to another morph or two of suspect with good reasoning more than one time with what some feel is evidence to lean towards the theory of things not being exactly what they are and he, I..and a few others were blown up on like we were the anti christ.
If there ever was a Cal King line of one morph or another I think it is safe to say that it is so watered down it really doesn't matter anymore to MOST people.
So before anyone goes with the "you're still drinking piss" analogy [which I love, best analogy ever] let's not go there.
To make things more confusing not many of us can even tell someon what a real Brooksi is and according to taxonomists there aint any anyway LOL.
I just refuse to go through my snaketological life saying " it may have a bit of this and that in it". I understand honest represenatation is everything but in this day and age, when even field collected specimens are suspect......I just don't know what to say anymore? No one is safe from this circle of accusation. Locale guys, morph guys, hybrid guys.
I don't dare name names or snakes after this rant, and it is not directed at you personally in a mean way. We did name names a few times and it leads to trouble we all don't need. There's alreayd a handful of people on unvoluntary hiatus right now due ot recent issues.
I can tell you this bro, if ANYONE has any pics of a definite Brooksi X Cal King morphs I'd really like to see it.
I think the majority of Florida Kings morphs on the market today are really Florida Kings, but that is just an opinion. I could not ell you I know this with 100% certainty. Then again, not many can about any given snake, and I think it has a lot to do with older herpers not participating on forums like these and those are the types who may remember the first of this n that....know what i mean?
Sorry to write so freakin much.....but I swear on my collection, I have no evidence to support Cal King genes in the Brooksi I work with.... Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Is part of the reason FL king morphs are suspect. Lavender albinos for example... the most confirmed history for these are Florida breeders that crossed Cals into FLs to get the lavender gene, and then crossed back to FLs. Even some well known breeders/dealers sold these crosses. I've heard of several albino Florida kings being hatched from wild snakes, but have never talked to anyone that has bred these, or knows whether their stock came from these or not.

Pointing fingers is useless guys. It was done a long time ago, I remember a little myself, but not keeping any floridana I didnt think to "record it". Those of us that have been around long enough realize there are basically 3 types of keepers-- the pro, the hobbyist and the transient looking to make a quick buck. Pros are rarely forthcoming with anything like data, they are usually too busy with their 1000 snakes,lol. The hobbyists(count me here)try to stay interested in herps through the tough times that life hands us....and many times that means switching up the species they keep and currently favor morphs simply because its NEW AND DIFFERENT. If you havent bred to a F2, you are a newbie, sit down and shut up,lol.
Long story short, no one has stepped forward from ANY camp to volunteer to be the secretary. I think this forum the best place to start looking(in the archives), but we have to expect some info to be lost. Those of us that are here for the long run have the patience to let the little ($)# be. These are not and never will be animals to be released or even truely compared to wc stock and the differences are getting bigger all the time. So instead of thrashing people, how about doing the research(homework)in these forums?? Thats usually a good place to start. My .02,Jeff

Good points Jeff, but for me I have my hands full with an attempt to decipher some Southern Pine variants and also some other Pit morphs. I am always keeping an ear turned toward any historical Brooksi info. Matter of fact I did a post not long ago about a conversation I had with Bill Love about the origin of Hypos.

Now on that note, who would have guessed real Tangerine Dreams would become a hard snake to score? It is the same situation as a true High Yellow Brooksi. Both were replaced by the Hypo.

When I was in High School in the 80s some of my friends who liked classic rock and the Dead would say "man I missed my time" meaning only if they'd have been born earlier to be part of soemthing that was important to them. For me, snakes like the normal Brooksi and Hondurans was a similar thing. Knowing what we know now.....it is easy to see many of the morph fanatics would probably have held onto some of those normal snakes to keep the integrity of the animals in tact........but now??? Things are all out of wack and I think it was inevitable. For me.... I enjoy the snakes I have and have my eyes peeled for others I would like to have. Sadly I can tell you, in 2004 I spent a few months in FL and asked a few locals to get me some normal Brooksi. They scoffed as if the snakes were worthless and carried on about snakes form TX here where I live. One mans trash is another mans treasure
Tom Stevens

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TomsSnakes.com

Tom, you cant stop progress. Hell, most of the time you cant even stem a tide. I gave up being a locality guy a while back when just about everyone I dealt with got out of the hobby. With pics being so easy, "like" phenotypes can be judged individually rather than depending upon exact lineage. I think anyone breeding "locality" loses their arguement beyond F1, and has to have alot thicker skin. While we will continue to refine genes to produce every color of the rainbow, lets not forget where we came from. I think EVERY show should have a "take a kid herping" volunteer booth MANDATORY. Make every vendor take part. As urbanization hits us all its the kids who will feel it first and most. Jeff

I can believe it did happen, and I could also believe Lavender variants popped up through captive breeding whether it was a surprise or a specific project hoping to produce them
The thing is one of the lines that has a breeders name attatched to it, who also has another unique morph, has been defended by his friends who swear that his are not crosses.
So.........people will believe one side or the other ya know?
By saying 'FL breeders".......I mean that is supposed to be a history? That's pretty vague.......doesn't give much of anything to think about in my book. Yet I hear that exact saying a few times a year.
The downfall of the hobby is that even when a history is elaborately detailed with witnesses and a well documented trail of events leading to a morph, some will chose to take shots at it and the people working with them.
Then occasionally the table is turned and you have a person post a picture of a Hybrids that nobody could guess is a Hybrid,.......and that snake resembles a popular morph in a billion collections.....and people will insist that though their snake is identical, there's is pure???
So many gorgeous snakes to own and mess with, and all these headaches. In all honesty it has made me occasioanlly think of working ONLY iwht Hybrids.......then the anti Hybrid people will bash away but the history will have no doubts.
How about the Ultramel Corn, If I am not mistaken that snake appeared and the person told breeders it was a cross.......and for some reason no one wanted ot believe it and it was marketed as pure. Now it has been bred into a couple of dozen other morphs.... a disaster for sure and it should never have happened.....but apprently it did? Go figure
don't take the Ultramel comment as a fact, though I did hear about it and have to wonder if it was hushed for obvious reasons or people simply don't care??
sorry for any typos busy as can be
Tom Stevens

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TomsSnakes.com

...all I did was ask if you thought the Cal had any influence....
I did not say anything about you.
If, as I suspect, and it's only MY opinion, the albino gene was brought into the FL kings (from Cal) and then bred to axanthics, would that have any effect on the hets and axanthics/anerys in the future since there is no red in Cal kings...????
That was the point of my query..NOT to put down anyone or their animals!
Sorry if I offended anyone here...
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

I tried to get my point across without giving that impression but I guess i failed. I was not offended, it's nothing new, just a repitive type of thing that comes up with Brooksi morphs.

I just wanted to say that anyone could basically make a comment like that about a type of snake that has a lot of morphs and follow it up with "Way back when FL breeders mixed this n that into it" and some will get suspicious.

Curious as I am to know the truth, I just don't think we'll ever know. My apologies to you, and I did say I always liked you....no offense was taken.... this post is tame compared to some others LOL
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

>>I can tell you this bro, if ANYONE has any pics of a definite Brooksi X Cal King morphs I'd really like to see it.

I had this Gravid female Brooksi, and no Male to Breed it to. So I Thought I'd start this little breeding project. She only bred him once(hooked for 9 hours). I think shes going in to her pre egg laying shed in a few days. They will be represented as Brooksi X Albino Cal King, and I plan on breeding a pair of sibbling in about 3yrs, if all goes well. I'll post you some pictures in a few months of the neonates.

PS The Brooksi was given to me by a lady, and she said it came from Petco, so no telling what its het for,?????????

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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

>>Nice. Do you think the "Cal king gene" has influence on the anery/axanthic look?

I always thought that eastern kings were anerythristic that was selected for by nature and that natural intergrades brought this gene about in floridana.
daveb

And some do indeed remember people doing the crosses with FL x Calis. I won't deny that it happened, but I can not...and not many other can answer the question as far as who had the real deal and who didn't?
The bottom line is as far as morphs are concerned, the classifieds would have the majority of the ads written mentioning a chance of the snakes having a gene borrowed from another snake, and we just don't see that and never will. Like I said, unusual babies appear from field collected snakes and even those are now suspect. I think I can spot a hybrid here n there when I look at the snakes I see on the market, some are much better at this than others. Most Brooksi I see look normal to me with the exception of one and that has been pointed out on here a few times.......not going there again.
Tom Stevens
ps this discussion has inspired my Snow project pair to breed, saw them lock up for the first time yesterday
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TomsSnakes.com