Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I think that all of us love ball pythons and all the morphs and excitment that go along with it. Everyone complains about the market and how it's 'going down hill', but i think that everyone should start doing something about it. I think all of us lovers of the bp should extend our reach and try and recruit others into ball pythons. After all, if the demand goes up so will the prices. Of course this idea is a very optomistic one and i may be jaded but i think that if everyone trys to get the word out into the 'real world' and not just the 'reptile world', personnaly i think that it could take off even more. These aren't very deep thoughts... but i just thought i would try and spark something.. in a positive way...

Just my thoughts....

There are too many in already – we need less – we need people already in producing less – we need to educate people prior to letting them dump thousands of dollars – just to be disappointed because they didn’t make as much as they were led to believe. Every person brought in is competition – competition drives prices down – we need less not more – we need to bring back exclusivity. And we need to make sure that those that do get in properly care for their animals - it should be for the love of the animal, for that first or 100th pip or awesome combo not for the almighty dollar.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

That competition keeps people honest. We need not to just look for PRICE but to Quality. With the market correcting itself. I believe more potential customers may enter the market place. Just my 2 cents

Kevin Stoltz
www.KMSReptiles.com

Well, competition may keep some people honest, but then again maybe they were always those honest type of people, IMO I think a lot of competition can be what corrupts some and then they just get a little more dishonest about things. Im not saying about the animals they produce..I would say most are pretty honest about that, but dishonesty about others within the hobby that they are up against.

I say yes we could use more people in the hobby, but we don't want everyone, because face it not everyone can really stand up to certain challenges. We need people..the right people.

Im all for the animals rather than people getting into the animals for the sake of making money. Most of the time I would say those people are blinded by $$ in their eyes than other more important things. Have fun with the hobby. There are those that certainly make a living off of this hobby, but far less than many may think when they go off looking at high priced animals some have and start getting ideas that they then need the animals to make some money.
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-Amelia
ES Tropicals

I have sold many a ball but the majority only purchased the snake as a pet with no intention on breeding they just wanted a "cool" looking snake. I think we will see many medium sized breeders look towards other snakes now that prices are leveling out.And dump their ball collections Which is a good thing, it almost seams we only need Huge breeders and the smaller hobbyist.Where the larger breeders are making it their livelyhood and us smaller breeders its still just a hobby.

Kevin
www.KMSReptiles.com

The problem is that people in the bp market have obliterated the wholesale/retail barrier. It's pretty bad that in the retail market, normal bp's here in the states cost anywhere from $59-$159 but yet anyone who is willing to do the research can come online and find pastels for $100 for single animals and not wholesale quanities. Prices drop in every species with every morph but yet most of the rest of the morphs in species of boids reach a happy medium, but not with the bp world. I mean common albino burms cost more than a couple bp morphs that are truly beautiful and create awesome animals. The best thing that I see is more and more people selling their entire collections, these are the people that drive the prices down so they can sell out because they aren't getting rich like they thought. I mean afterall they really weren't bp fans to begin with. Heck, my second python ever was a bp and that was almost 2 decades ago and have never not had a bp in my collection since and don't see myself ever without having a nice bp colony.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Josh while I completely agree with your first two sentences, that people in this industry, because the little guy can create the product, drastically blur the lines between wholesale / retail. This industry is different than most, joe blow cannot walk into best buy, purchase a few items and then next year be shooting tvs out their rear end. People are not prepared for the work or care thus need to move their product and are afraid they will never be able to sell their product next to the big boys so they must drop their prices.

The other enormous problem is that people want to look at this as a business, want to make their money back but don't want to spend money to sell their product. No offense to KS but people who want to sell 10, 20, 50 ,100K worth of animals and only want to spend a $100 a year for their marketing budget on KS are the ones who complain the most about stagnant product who drop their prices because its not moving. Within weeks they'll drop their price $500 but would never think of dropping $500 on a banner, some business cards and a table at a show where they can display all of their product rather than just discounting a single animal to make it go away.

On the other hand the guys that do spend the money to go out and find new customers, often go about it terribly wrong. They have one bad show or don't sell anything at a tiny show and give up, feeling its pointless when in reality people want to buy from people they are comfortable with. They want to see your name on KS and other sites, they want to see you at a few shows know your going to be around and if your sitting behind your table with a stick up your butt, your arms crossed and frustrated who in their right mind would want to buy from you.

This business is literally what you make it. You want to wholesale your product you can, you want to make an extra $10,000 a year or literally a million a year, its entirely possible, but its a business, a new business and its a hell of a lot of work. Brian is right there is absolutely no better way to make a living in my opinion than what we do however you have to fight for it and work damn hard.

Brian is also right that the more snakes out there, the bigger the market, however I do not look at people that I sell to as competition. in fact the reason that I do very well in the this business is that I go way way out of my way to help my customers produce as many high quality animals as they possibly can. The more people who see our products the more that become interested in them. Go out of your way, help each-other and grow, push towards your goals and you can get there.

What I disagree with your statement is in regards to ball pythons being different than any other species. Balls were / are the hottest thing out there so they are the target but to say that balls are worse than anything else just is not true. Joyle wants to talk about $1,000 pieds and $500 albinos, those are onesy twosy deals where someone is dead broke way over extended. I will buy cash right now 100 pieds for $1,000 each but it won't happen, they are not out there. Those type of examples exist in every market, I can tell you some of the stupid offers people have sent me for their albino boas, motley boas, retic clutches. To state that the market or people of the ball world are any different that that of any other species is just wrong, their are whores in every market.
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Neil Golli
(813) 856 3408
info@gollireptiles.com
www.GolliReptiles.com

Good Reading! I agree 100%

Andy
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Well Tosha you did it again and nailed it right on the head . it’s the Quality of herper not the Quantity . Thanks David of DS Reptile Rescue

We need more and more people who either would like to have a Ball as a pet or would like to explore the idea of breeding them.

Like every market, this market operates on the rules of supply and demand.

If you have an over supply of something and very little demand, the price goes down.

If you have a limited supply and everybody wants one, the price goes up.

It is impossible to limit the supply. But, we can do things to increase the demand.

Problem is originally and likely only realistic way to increase the demand was/is to tell new potential customers how much money they were going to make. 20 X return in 2 years. That is how 99% this phenomenon happened. It was the non-herp passing interest herper with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ individuals who grew the market. When they leave as they are doing, so goes the big $$$$$$$$$.

How about a late night infomercial or Kiosk in the mall, right next to the hermit crab stand????????????

Later,
Chris

There are still well over 300,000,000 people in the US who don't know anything about how cool a Ball Python can be as a pet.

There are tens of thousands of West African Balls sold in pet stores every year.

My guess is that many people would pay considerably more for some of the cool/attractive morphs that are out there.

Someday, Lavender Albino Pieds will be selling in pet stores and people will walk in off the street and say, "that's cool, I gotta have it!"

if what you're saying is true,tosha, then why don't you get out of the market???? if you truly believe that and you do actually care about the animals.

Actually - I'm not "in the market" - I am more of a collector than a breeder - I got into breeding mainly because it was something that my family wanted to try and it's one of the few things that we can still do together as a family - as a bonus I get to add some pretty snake to my collection. I will never have more than a few clutches per year - on principle I am against the mass production that occurs in the industry - I don't intend to make money from the venture - if I break even between what I sell and my purchases and maintenance bills that is more than I can ever expect - though seriously unlikely. Our snakes are our pets - they aren't our business - there aren't a lot of people that spend as much as we do for pets. There are a lot of people that shouldn't own snakes - that own them for the wrong reasons - that can't properly care for the ones they got - that exploit them etc. etc. We need to preach responsibility before recruitment.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

we have something in common in our philosophies. i'm more collector/ hobbyist as well, and hope to cover expenses as well rather than profit. that being said, you and i are both in the market. we're just not the heavy hitters. do you set up at shows and sell at market prices,strictly internet sales or do you wholesale them or trade them off to bigger breeders?

If you are afraid of competition you should take up a hobby like.... knitting....there is very little competition there.
LOL!

Seriously though...
I feel like competition is a good thing. Prices will fluctuate.
They always do. But why look at things from the negative perspective. If you really enjoy this hobby or business you will find a way to make it work.

How many of you have bought only a SINGLE snake and felt satisfied.
Yep....I got my ONE snake and I don't care to have any more.

YEAH RIGHT!

We are all infected with the same wonderful addiction to this hobby.
When we buy a single snake...we want to breed it.
I dont care if it is worth $2.00 or $20,000.00...we all like to see eggs hatching successfully. It makes us feel like we are doing something right with the animals we keep.
When we have succeeded with one species we want to try our hand at others as well.

If a new keepers are introduced ( exposed to the infectious addiction) to keeping reptiles....ball pythons or any other reptiles....they will also want to breed their animals.
There is nothing wrong with more responsible reptile keepers in the hobby.
Think about it.
Even if the new keeper starts with a male pastel...they will want to breed it to several interesting females.
Everyone wants to produce something cool.
These new keepers will form a new market!
They will produce new and interesting morphs!
I can't wait to see what other people hatch out.
I say the more the merrier!
There is nothing wrong with this market.
It is merely adjusting to new circumstances and situations.
The market is alive...it changes and evolves. Just roll with it....Or go extinct. LOL.
Call me crazy but I think that's kind of a beautiful thing.

There will always be expensive, new, "got to have it" type animals ...and there will be some animals that decline in both price and public interest.
(I actually have a lot of respect for people who like to keep animals that are not the "Jonny-Come-Lately" type animals.)
You know....I was thrilled to hatch out smooth green snakes for heavens sake! It was cool.
I also enjoyed hatching Parias sumatranus....They have only been bred by myself and one Zoo here in the USA.
I enjoyed producing Crotalus pifanorum....first successful breeding outside of Costa Rica or Venezuela!
I hope there are plenty more people to have success with these and many other species....it keeps things interesting.

After all, when I started keeping Ball Pythons they were "Just a KID'S snake."

Look at them now!

There is plenty of room for new faces in this market.
I say welcome them in and encourage responsible husbandry.
After all, how would you feel if...when you were first curious about reptiles...someone said, "There are too many people in this hobby....we need less people....We want to be exclusive."

This reminds me of Kids in a tree house...only allowing "SOME" people to join in their clubhouse.
Lets be realistic.

Lets have fun and stop worring about what prices are going to do tomorrow, next week or in the next ten years.

Besides, if I were join a club....I would want it to be a fun club...I would want to join a club where I felt welcome...a club where there were not too many worry worts.
This is a great hobby/business.
Keep it fun. Everything else will work itself out.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!

I think the problem is people are to concerned about the market. This is a hobby if people kept the majority of what they produce there would be no problem! And when I say people I mean small time breeders, people with 500 snakes or less.
Its simple the market is flooded and the cost of Ball Pythons specially Dom will drop. I remember having a conversation with someone I was going to by a Ball python from, he told me to by a Dom and a few dinking projects.
The reason being I could hurry and produce some more Dom and sell them, so I could have funds to by some more snakes. Well that's what I didn't do I went all hets. Reason being I'm not trying to make a quick buck I'm trying to breed snakes!

Right.

I want to produce different morphs myself.

Looking back, what I've spent on a couple het. projects over the last couple years, I couldve put the money in the bank, waited two years and picked up a visual for the price I paid for the het pairs just a couple/few years ago?

But I want to breed the visual myself, not just look at it.

I agree with you. I'm breeding primarily for my own collection. I do have some co-doms, but I'm just breeding them because I need them for my projects, and most of what I produce this year will be held back.

I've sold normals to a few friends, and everyone that sees my pastel wants one.
I've basically got my first clutch of pastels sold if I want to. Haha.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Kingofspades I like your sense of humor! lol

I'm new to the whole ball python "market" and was wondering why some of you are thinking the ball python market is going down. I'm not on every forum, but the ones I go to always compare that forum's snake to the ball pythons. I personally think the ball python market is one of the more expensive and lively ones on here. I originally wanted sand boas and blood pythons but saw a nice yellow ball python for sale. My first snake was a ball python instead of a sand boa or blood python because everyone I met kept saying the ball python was a good first snake. Even my friends who keep RTBs advised me to get a ball first. If you compare the forums and classifieds, ball pythons have more ads and posts each day. Sometimes looking for a nice blood python is hard for me cause I don't see any I like or can afford (god I really want an ultra-breit or Ash's red leopard male). Was the market stronger before (please don't hate me for not knowing)? I just want to know how expensive balls used to be cause I think they're still pretty expensive right now. The ones I really want I plan to breed on my own. Don't worry I'm not planning on selling any of them. I already promised my friends dibs on my first clutch (if I ever get one, hopefully). Hopefully in three years I can finally have a nice yellow bumble bee, cause they are way too expensive as of right now. I think the fun part of having snakes as pets is that you can get more diverse pets in the future if you breed them right. Well that and playing with them and showing them to people who are afraid of snakes and then seeing them playing with it in the next 30 minutes or so.
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1.0 Graziani Pastel Ball Python (Baldwin)
0.1 Spider Ball Python
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Snow Kenyan Sand Boa (Gaara)
1.0 Blue Garter Snake (Blue)
0.1 Sumatran Blood Python (Medusa)

Everyone knows I couldn’t stay away from this topic First, I think everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone makes some great points, I would never try to disrespect someone’s opinion.
That being said I’ll give you my opinion on this topic. The more or less argument has been one that has been in the reptile business for twenty years, From the fall of Albino Burmese Python prices to the fall of the Albino Leopard geckos and everything in between, but the truth is you can’t put the cork back in the bottle. There are way too many people that have invested in the hobby either for fun or for monetary gain to think that we are going to stop growing. Asking someone that has future plans of producing “X” amount of clutches to reduce their number for the greater good of the market will never happen. And even if they did there would be a hundred people behind them that would just keep producing. This has been a problem for as long as I’ve been in the hobby/business. We have to realize that every sale we make is a future competitor. So this is where I think more is better. Yes, more means more people producing in the future, but it also means more exposure to new people interested in the hobby. When someone from “wherever USA” buys into a Ball project, they show their friends and whoever wants to see and they talk up the hobby. These are potential future customers that we would never have in the hobby. So the more animals out there the more potential customers. I guess I see it as produce it and you will sell it?? (it’s my “field of dreams” take)
Even if we all decided to reduce our production and cut the number of Balls produced, the market would still continue to moderate until it becomes a price that a consumer can afford to buy and doesn’t need to think of breeding to justify their purchase. This is just the reality of the situation, you can’t convince somebody to pay $2500 for a Ball mutation and then expect them not to want to breed it and make their money back.
The market is what it is. I will still challenge anyone to tell me a better way to make a living, or just pay for your hobby. Yah, prices have dropped and in some cases they’ll continue to drop. So what, we’re still making a great profit and loving what we do, right?
Listen people, yes there are bad people in this hobby that will cut prices, not care about their customers, not protect the future of the hobby, sell crap, ect…. But there are those people in every walk of life. We can’t just try to be selective about who or how many people get to breed their snakes. There are so many people in the world that have never even seen a Ball Python. We have such an untapped market just waiting to be exposed to these beauties. So I for one have always believed that it’s a matter of increasing the demand more then it’s decreasing the supply. But hey, what the heck do I know, I clean snake crap for a living????? Sorry if I offending anyone, Brian (BHB)

brian i think you hit it right on, i've owned and bred balls since 2000 and the past seven years there has been a world of change, and its not necessarily for the worst. maybe the balls can't be considered as big investments anymore but rather a lot of lil' investments. sure prices have gone down on alot on some morphs 7500 for alb balls to 1200, 15,000 mojaves to 500 but there are still ALOT of projects commanding extreme prices desert ghost, lav alb, etc. the market is what it is, you can't decrease the amount of people in it, but turn it into a positive, adapt to it, every snake show that goes on a new little kid is gonna get excited about snakes and tell his friends and to me if you do good business with good people those are future customers not competition
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MikeJ-solar serpents

That's a good and reasonable concept. I always read about people saying they have all these friends that have this snake and want that snake. I wonder where these people are. I don't know a single person, with the exception of a guy I used to know that owned an exotic store back when I was 9 and 10. He used to let me hang around his shop and help out. He taught me so much and I looked up to him a lot. I was very close with his family for years. I haven't talked to him now for about 3 years now, but he was breeding a lot of boas, tortoises, and geckos. Last time I talked to him, he was selling everything to focus on his other businesses. Pretty much lost the passion. Except for him, I am the only other person I know who doesn't think I'm a freak for raising snakes for the last 20 years. I used to get beaten up to taunts of "snake-boy" when I was a little kid. All my friends, co-workers, neighbors, etc, couldn't care less about how much I love my snakes. When I brag about a new clutch I had to get into the incubator that caused me to be 20 minutes late for work, they humor me by listening, but you can see on their face that they just think I'm weird. And they will obviously never get it. So for me, this has always been, and I hope always will be a thing of exclusivity. I prefer it that way. I love being the most different one in my world, and NEVER want to be like everyone else.

She couldn't care less either. Haha.

Brian, as usual you said it perfectly.
We need more people like you in this industry.
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J&J REPTILES
www.jnjreptiles.com
sales@jnjreptiles.com
(207)479-6658

People either love snakes or hate them. The people who love them already probably have them and the people who hate them will never be talked into buying one...ever.

Second, good luck trying to limit production. One word why that wont happen - MONEY.

No one is going to trust the next person to not breed pastel to make the price go up, because as soon as they look away, they would both be breeding twice as many pastels because the think the other person isnt and they can make even more money.

Saying that people love them or hate them is on the surface true however spend time in this industry, go to shows and stand behind a table for awhile. Have a mom bring her 3 sons to a show on a saturday because there is nothing else to do or its a rainy day. Show her a pied, pull it out and half the time she will reach out, grab it and completely forget that she is holding a snake. Its a peice of art, something beautiful and all of a sudden she is doing something she never thought she would do, hold the big bad ugly snake. You've just changed a perception, you've just opened her eyes. Will she buy a snake there and then or ever, you never know, however she is much much more likely.
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Neil Golli
(813) 856 3408
info@gollireptiles.com
www.GolliReptiles.com

I have had more than one person who was terrified of snakes come around once they saw my little pastel. I usually keep some of my ball python books on my coffee table, and I'm always amazed at how many guests look through them and ask to see my snakes.

before collecting balls, my collection was primarily large constrictors, i did alot of school shows with them and when i would walk into a class room of 3rd graders with a 16' burm and ask how many kids were afraid of snakes, 80% would raise there hands. after the presentation and letting kids hold the animals i would ask how many kids are still afraid of snakes and about 10% would raise there hands, it was always a neat experience.
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MikeJ-solar serpents

People gawking at shows or when they come to your house is different than a person who doesnt like snakes having a snake epiphany and going out and buying one.

People go to zoos and gawk for the day, may even pet some of the animals if allowed, but they dont want them in their house.

As far as having a show with a classroom of 12 year olds, of course they want a 20 burm when they see it, then they go home and their mother says "NO" and pastels are $75 next show.

For every new young person who buys one, there is someone dying or getting too old to keep a snake.

The demographics are what they are...

Do you really think because you see Tosha, and Jen and several other females on KS, this is representative of the population as a whole?

Most mothers, wifes, girlfriends hate snakes, and alot of men hate snakes too. These are facts, the snake buying population is what it is.

I need to start going to more shows and load up on females, if so.

$300? ISH for girls this year probably......

......
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Buy US born and bred snakes........
They just taste better.......
NO artificial flavor or color added.......

If you think the number of people who like snakes isn't growing, you have your head stuck in the sand.

You can go down to Main Street with a cup of free coffee and a free Piebald and 99.8% of females and 97% of males will take the cup of coffee.

But, whatever makes you feel better. AS a matter of fact, I just read on CNN.com that its predicted that all 300 million Americans will own snakes by 2015 and someone will have to sell them to em'. I'd get in early!

Your entirely missing what I said. Your into snakes, how'd that evolve? I'll use your zoo example to what lead me into snakes.

At 7 years old AFTER being at the Cleveland Zoo I came home was amazed at all the animals and mostly the reptiles. A week later we were in a pet store picking up dog and fish food where I saw my first ball python. I said to my mother "mom you know what would make me the happiest boy in the whole world?" She said WHAT? I replied a pet alligator OR a ball python.

Guess what we took the ball home....

No shows and pieds are not going to encourage millions of mothers accross the country to start buying balls HOWEVER individual experiences do. Young boys at the reptile house at the zoo, kids at shows, friends, family and a million other sources. You act as though maxium saturation has been achieved and you have the end all answer with nothing to back it up.

Step back and think how and why you and others came into this hobby, whats great about and what the future might hold, an open mind is a great thing...
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Neil Golli
(813) 856 3408
info@gollireptiles.com
www.GolliReptiles.com

There are a lot of opportunities for new people to get into ball pythons. Here's how I got into them.

As a kid, I loved herps. I caught all kinds of native animals, and even kept a few exotics. As I got older, I moved around a lot, and did not have the time to dedicate to keeping anymore. I gave the last of my animals away shortly after high school.

When I got older and settled down (enough to buy my own home anyway), I decided to get back into keeping herps. I started with things that I had only seen in library books as a kid - a carpet python, a green tree python, etc. As my collection grew, I started looking at animals outside my local area, on the Internet. This is when I discovered the incredible variety of ball python morphs that were being produced. As soon as I saw a piebald, I knew I had to have one. The first ball pythons I bought were het piebalds, and others have followed. Ball pythons now make up the majority of my herp collection.

I also know quite a few other people that have gotten into snakes heavily as adults. Some because they loved herps as a kid, and some because their kids convinced them to let them bring home a snake of their own.

And when the 5 tear old kid who is amazed at the zoo by the snakes is old enough to start buying snakes in 10 or 15 years, 1 or 2 people who own snake today will have died or given it up by then?

I tired of this topic.

Good luck

This guy just doesn't get it does he???????????

LOL I gone several times to the schools here I have seen the kids and teachers change there minds once they see the snakes and can touch them. I love seeing the moment they realize that the snake is not going to do some horrible thing to the person.

that actually does. The rest of you will be the reason that this still goes on another couple years, before the "sales line" of needing new people in the pyramid doesn't work.....

I guess that then the big boys sales line will be to have one last "Morph Surge" for untimate morph victory voer the realists in the herp world. Remember a non sale for the gods is a victory to the terrorist..

And they just keep getting stranger..............
Gods and terrorists in the same line.............
Time to give it up...............................

you say that the average woman is scared of snakes and cannot be converted, well you are very wrong. When my wife and I started dating 4 1/2 years ago she was petrified of snakes. She was raised in a family that the only good snake was a dead snake and her mother was very efficient with a shovel. After seeing a pied for the first time online my wife fell in love with them and just had to have one. We now have over 100 snakes, spent well over 40k on our collection and guess what, her mother will come into our reptile room and look at the snakes and comment on how pretty they are. Her mother has also allowed several non-venomous snakes to live when she finds them in her yard now which would have never of happened before.

Another example to show you. When my wife and I moved down here to sw florida, our neighbors thought we were the craziest people around. I took their 7 yr old son under my wing. They later found a small corn snake and he wanted to know everything about it and his mother reluctantly allowed him to keep it even though she hated snakes. Now they have 6 corn snakes, 1 hogg island boa, 1 great plains rat, 1 pac man frog, 1 singapore blue taurantula (sp) and his mother has even helped me clean my snakes tubs before.

So basically, if the experiences are positive ones. Anyone can be converted to liking snakes, it just takes time and someone to show some patience.

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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I used to be afraid of snakes, terrified in fact. Then I started working in a pet store that had many of them. I learned how to take care of them, I started reading and suddenly I found myself unafraid of them. I can't pinpoint when exactly I stopped being afraid of them, but I can tell you, I never noticed the fear disappearing just the amazement at how it felt to care for such a beautiful creature. The first one I cared for was a 8 foot redtail, he was so fat and sweet, but he was also cantankerous when he was shedding. I learned not only how to care for them, but also how to respect them. Now I try to educate my family about it and have happened to save quite a few of them from the sharp edges of a garden hoe in my hick like family. Now when they see one, they call me and ask what it might be, in that time, the poor animal has escaped and disappeared lol. It is a step in the right direction.

"...recruit people into Balls...?" Sounds like a cult. I think less bickering on the KS forum would be a good start, as far as bringing people in. New people asking about prices who get bombarded with negative comments are probably going to say $#@% Balls, I am going to go to the Boa forum....or Hognose, or whatever. The only people complaining about prices are the people who paid too much for their original animals, promising loved ones that they borrowed money from that Balls would make you rich. Come on! Buy what you can afford, sell what you breed, and you will have a blast!

Dave

Dave,

You are exactely right.Some people here have lost (if they ever had it) all the fun.

Read the attached link from the Retic forum, they are all great, but the third post is hilarious!

This is whats missing from the BP forum IMHO, the only saving grace for me is that the cut-throat, money grabbers are too fun too tweak.

I speak for myself here.

Best of luck!

Alan
Link