Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, I am a first time monitor buyer and I am going to buy a savannah. I know several people argue that Savannah's aren't the best monitors to buy for newbies because of their size, or temperment, or because they are wild caught or this or that. I know ackies would probably be a more suitable choice, however I've seen pictures of those things, both the "red" and the "yellow" ackies and I think they are just plain ugly. At least compared to Savannahs. In fact I think Savannahs are hands down the coolest looking lizards and I guess I'm just lucky that they are cheap. If ackies were like 20 or 30 dollars and Savannahs were like in the 100-200 dollar range, I'd still buy a savannah. But to the main point of my question...I'm not too keen on the idea that my sav will grow up to 4 or maybe even 5 feet. Seems like the maximum length on these vary to some degree. Since these lizards dominate the monitor market, I was just wondering if any captive breeders are attempting to breed these things to smaller more desirable sizes? Since they are so popular that would make sense to me. At least more sense than these breeders going crazy with morphed colors of bearded dragons and ball pythons. Savannahs already look really darn cool, I just want them to be a tad smaller. Like 2- 2 1/2 feet. It doesnt seem like that would be that hard to do, but I dont know. I would love an ackie sized savannah. I'd even get two! You'd think people would go nutts over something like that. I appreciate any thoughts on this.

Savs aren't being captive bred much at ALL, let alone selectively for a smaller size. That would take many years anyway. I'm sure there's some sort of cool medium-small monitor to fit your tastes. You could get a Timor if you don't mind it hating you.

Timors are ugly too. So are black throats, Ionids, Goulds, and even the komodo dragon. I want a dwarf Bosc!

Picky!

Here is a quote for the Monitor FAQ website at http://www.kingsnake.com/monitorfaq/species.htm#7.0

"First, they are readily available and very inexpensive. They only cost importers less than $5.00 each and are imported by the thousands."

If they are that readily available, cheap and folks are buying them then it probable is not worth the time to anyone to try and make a Dwarf Savannah.

Jeff

First off... If you aren't prepared to deal with a lizard that grows to those sizes then you shouldn't even be considering buying one. 2. The "cool" factor is yet another bad reason for buying a monitor. 3. Appreciate the animal for what it is.. not what you want it to be. 4. Curiousity begs me to ask... how many other reptiles do you own?

What does the amount of reptiles that I own have anything to do with wanting to know if anyone is trying breed dwarf savannahs? Just curious

but fyi
1 beardie
1 ball python

and no i am still not interested in an ugly small ackie

Savs are imported by the thousands. Savs die by the thousands during import. Hundreds make it into homes, to only die a slow death. Of the thousands of Savs imported, only a few last more than five years. Now THAT is ugly, not any species of monitor.

I won't even bother answering your question, somebody already did and you don't seem inclined to listen to the answer. Perhaps you would get better responses if you tried to be a little less offensive to others with different tastes than yours.

Oh yeah, I keep only 'ugly' monitors.
v.a.acanthurus
v.gouldii
v.panoptes horni
v.jobiensis

--Robert

np

Because.. Monitors are a lizard you should only consider when you've had experience with other types of agressive species. Too many people purchase them and find out that they may have a lizard that will hate them for the rest of that animal's life. After the nasty disposition of my African rock Python, my Bosc is a bit easier.. though a bit quicker.

Beardies and Ball pythons are very forgiving of husbandry errors. Most Monitors aren't...

My main reasons for asking though were.. A. Experience level.. and B. Your whole attitude about this. If you aren't prepared for what a Bosc is.. then you shouldn't be buying one. Think it over very hard....there's already way too many Bosc's who live in either poor conditions or have been abandoned to rescue societies. Instead of wanting the animal your way.. let it be what it is... a medium sized, beautiful.. top of the food chain predator. If you can't do that.. then monitors aren't for you. And just to say something else.. No animal is ugly...

Ravi did but no one since. The average size of a bosc monitor is 2.5-3.5 ft with a few males reaching or exceeding 4 ft (most dont live more than 3-6 months in the hands of pet owners). Ackies are small a species of monitor bosc are a medium sized species, if you want small you dont get a medium or large species. If you want wild caught as a guaranntee buy a bosc.

Nobody YOU no breeds Savs.You have no clue who breeds them on their own.Everybody used to say the biggest water monitor was 7.5 'long.NOT everyone cares about that crap to get in some "monitor record book".A guy I met in D.C. had a 9'2" /142lb. water monitor that he and his wife raised from a baby.I saw it,including weighing it and measuring it.Supposedly they don't get 9'!Not everyone gives a rat's @ss about record booksJust something for everyone to think aboutLot's of stuff exists without documentation or proof of it.Not everyone wants to be an FR and tell you what they have done.He is the best at what he does

Hi BRG,

As for the record books, they are a source of reference, and sometimes that is all you can find about an animal, plant, car, etc...as for the V. salvator 9'2" 142 pounds - that is a heavy animal, maybe too heavy, but it is NOT the record to-date. That record (so far) belongs to Captain Stanley S. Flower who shot one in 1896, reported it in same year as 10 feet, 3 inches. This is to-date the "longest" varanid measured. The largest komodo was 10 feet, 2 inches, but weighed more than the V. salvator. The PNG Crocodile monitor probably gets longer, but certainly not larger as its weight in slight compared to the salvator and komodo monitors, but with V. salvadorii its their teeth that excell!

There may very well be other records "out there" in the private domain that are really record holders, but if they do not tell anyone, what good is it? It will not enhance our knowledge of these animals and their optimal capabilities, which is what captive husbandry has done for snakes, amphibians and varanids for the last 20 years or so at a dramatic rate! and then one must consider the source...is it valid? Is in authentic? I.e. the longest reported V. salvadorii was "said" to be 15 feet, but we now know that man was abit "tipsy with fermented drink" when he reported said measurements...so it is no longer valid or authentic report.

cheers,
mbayless

np

i think that brg is probably right in what he is saying because i was a real reptile store that has great stuff and really knows their stuff and they had some really nice looking very small savanas that they claimed were captive bred and were really tame and were also in awesome condition for 60 dollars. then next to them were some savanas that were all different sizes and did not look that healthy for only 15 dollars that they labeled as wild caught. so my point is how can you know what everyone is doing all around the world.

Ive learned and seen for myself that in this reptile pet trade market, 95% of them are dishonest, if not blatant liars, and unlike the "law", Are Guilty before Proven Inocent, or in this case, truthful. This is a harsh statement yes, and I do not make it litely - but in all the 20 years of dealing with people, varanid keepers, and so on, they will say anything to make a buck - yes they must make a living, but to what limit will they go? Sky is the limit.

For these reasons, the keeper must be very aware of what is going on, make good observations, and so on BEFORE making a purchase, because once that is done, there is usually no refund.
So beware and learn BEFORE you get your monitor what you need to know, and then when you buy a bright eyed frisky eating well varanid, there are no problems.

If the fellow claims they are captive bred, ask for an egg of the babies then - compare the measurements if you must to see if it matches a monitor, or a boa...ask questions. If they can't answer them right off, or vague - go somewhere else. simple. There are a plethora of people selling every type of monitor or other reptile conceivable - ask around. Local herp societies can help there too.

THERE ARE HONEST PET SHOPS OUT THERE, AND TERRIFIC PEOPLE WORKING IN THEM. I can't name names here, but I live in Berkeley California and the reptile pet shop here is very good, honest and fair. Check out other herp keepers and get their assessments BEFORE you go out and buy a wc/cb monitor - you will be better off and happier in the long run. I know. I learned a few lessons along the way too....my intention is not to discredit anyone specifically or generally, just my experience and opinion, thats all. Do your homework, and good luck...living with varanids is terrific!

For instance this week, a fellow told me he bred some monitors, and snet me his data - I could tell from the information he sent, he had in fact done it....he's honest and shares his info too. Thats GREAT. There are people out there like this, like buying a monitor, you also have to find the right breeder/pet shop too!
mbayless

I trust almost no one in the reptile trade. I will agree with you that they(your local buisness) are overall good, but an experience that I had with them last year, syphoned away any amount of trust I had.

I was thinking about purchasing a particular monitor from them, but I had seen that it had regurged in its cage(and the monitor that came in with it had died a few months before). They were ready to sell, but when I began requesting blood work and so-forth(at a shared expense) before making the purchase, they backed out and said it wasnt for sale anymore. I later wrote to them via e-mail under a different name expresing interest in buying the animal no questions asked, and all of a sudden it was for sale again.

Perhaps there are circumstances that Im not aware of, but from my point of view, this situation was foul.

The imports that are nice looking and healthy they put for a higher price in one cage and the dried up skeletons in a different for cheap. If they take good care of them the healthy numbers go up and the cheaper ones disappear (into the other cage, or vise-a-versa). The idea is that they bought all of them from the same guy from the same shipment at the same time but separate them when they come in.
Id ask for proof, its not hard, I wish it wouldnt be that hard to get proof either. Or you could buy one and get a few tests done over a year to look for parasites, especially native to Africa, that doesnt always show if they didnt pick any up though.

The guy got them from the importer and sells them for $1.00 each for 10 or more (hes making a profit off of them yet). Every one of them are fat, healthy, active (no dehydrated starved skeletons at all). Tells you they are cheaper than youd imagine, so thats $59 profit each on them,wow. I have a few more wholesale pricelists for $1.50-2.00 a piece to buy 5 or more.

Nobody besides Ravi can prove it, period. Ive questioned 50 so called CB savannah monitor adds all over the internet in the last year for proof with answers like this; Oh Im sorry I typed that by accident..Oh the world is a safer place because you caught me lieing on my add, there I admitted it..I dont have the pictures on file because I used a 35mm not my expensive digital and dont have a scanner..Oh I meant captive born from imported eggs..That was a mistake I dont want to call them WC because everyone else is selling the same ones, this way they sell quicker, or for a higher price.
All I asked for was pictures of eggs, parents, babies hatching, etc. nobody could do it, except Ravi. There are suposedly a few Europeans who have eggs incubating and I wish them all the luck in the world and hope they keep it up.

But nobody can prove CB boscs, except Ravi, why? I wish more could. Oh yeah one guy showed me pictures of FRs outdoor cages and his house, then claimed that was his house and where he breeds his boscs but the adults just died a few weeks ago, I could email you his name because he sells on these classifieds alot. 2 people from Europe have shown pictures of eggs being buried and adults so far so I hope they keep up the good work.
I agree with with the water size because Ive seen a few males 8 ft an one beyond 9. Heck I have yet to see a female BT or WT exceed 5 ft except Sobek, yet have seen males 7 ft and one 7ft 3in. Maybe because most dont live long enough to grow that size, I dont know. That weight is too high in my opinion though for a water. Ive seen a few that looked good and built right at 75lbs and less at 8ft or more.

np

Well, you can most likely scratch finding a truly captive bred bosc/savannah monitor. Lots of people will claim theirs are captive born or bred, but most of them are not telling the truth. There is no point to doing that when they are so readily available as imports. That means that there is probably no one making any effort to make healthy dwarf ones (lots of people make unhealthy/sick dwarf ones).

That said, I like savannahs and still think they make decent pet monitor. Generally, they are calmer and more tolerant than many other monitors available and they look neat too. They are medium sized though. Most will stay under or about 3 feet. However, you need to be prepared and willing to keep one if it gets larger.

One option you have is to contact the local herp society. Many of them have a list of people wanting to dump savannah monitors (I get lots of offers - and all my savs are unwanteds). Chances are you will need to become involved with the society before they would consider you as a potential adopter, but being involved in a society is fun so that is just a bonus. In terms of the savannah you would be rescuing one that is probably otherwise doomed to an unhealthy, short life.

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Christine :>~
A good friend will come bail you out fo jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn that was fun!!".

Ive never seen a 3 foot savannah monitor in the wild, even very old animals don't seem to get that big. There are a few 4 foot one here and there in captivity but most are clinically obese. I think its an oversimplification to say that if they don't get over 3 feet long they are underfed. Similarly there are some exceptionally large ackies. It's a much heavier bodied animal than acanthurus anyway. It's much more primitive lizard and I agree that it is much better looking than the dwarf monitors.
Incidentally I tried to make it my business to find out who was really breeding savannah monitors and was unable to verify even one of over 100 claims of captive bred stock offered for sale - I think they were all fake. It's true - very few people breed savannah monitors!
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Mampam Conservation

Thank you so much Mampam for being the only person in this forum do give me a candid educated response to my inquiry. If I knew my message was going to create that much of a fuss then I wouldn't have posted it. And to some of you other guys, Lucien and whoever else, ya'll need to seriously loosen up and get a grip. I mean I've heard the sob stories about savannah monitors a million times, I had no idea I was going to get lectured on animal conservation. It's not like I am out there killing them for their skins and such. And seriously, just because you have a Timor or a Argus or whatever, that doesn't make you some kind of hero. Bottomline, these are all WILD animals, I don't agree it's right to take ANY of them from their rightful homes in the wild. And just because it's captive bred doesnt mean it's going to be like a little tame dog and sit happily right down in your lap. If you think that then you're crazy. And you people have to be insane if you think that it's ok to captive breed REPTILES so they can live comfortably in your little 3 foot tanks. I dont care if you have a 10 foot tank, that lizard would rather be out in the wild! I can't stress enough, these are lizards NOT dogs!! And hey, last time I checked it was ok to have my own opinion! Honestly, no one here really knew the answer to my direct question, so instead yall had to cover up your stupidity by making off the wall assumptions, like for one, I didn't know how to take care of a reptile. I mean where did that come from?Lucien you need to get your head checked man, I know how to take care of a Savannah monitor, I've fed them dozens of times, i've just never owned one. And yes I can say that other animals are ugly because to me, they are ugly! But to be fair, I guess every animal is beautiful in their own way. But to each their own. I just don't prefer the long wiry snakelike monitors. And sorry guys, don't take it personal cuz i don't like your lizard! Ya'll act like im saying your girlfriend is ugly or something. But seriously, you can't say that Savannahs arent unique looking for this genus. Their skin is beautiful and that's probably why they are hunted mercilessly for it. And I don't hear about too many people hunting Timors and Ackies for their "beautiful" skin. And Savannahs have these interesting big heads, small necks and that cool little blue forked tongue. And they dont have that long whiplash tail that those other goofy snakelike monitors have. So again Mampan, thank you for your answer. Apparently enough people would be interested in a dwarf savannah if my message garnered this much of a response! I might be on to a new thing here! All you savannah haters need to just stop hatin. I can handle a three foot long savannah.

Lucien, I take back what I said about you before. I'm sorry. I was just a little irritated that you seemed to walk around my question. But you made some really good points and I definitely don't want to be one of those people that lose interest in my lizard after a year or so. And to hopefully please you monitor lovers in here I would love to actually buy my savannah from a captive breeder. If anyone knows of what they feel is a legitimate captive breeder for boscs then please let me know. I mean if I want a sav bad enough and can't find a captive breeder then what else am I supposed to do? To me a lizard is a lizard, no matter where it came from. Oh and I like the savannahs that seem to retain that white/light greyish color. Is that like some kind of different subspecies of savannah? Some are really light grey and some are dark grey. Oh and Robert, you have a cool looking lizard there. Whatever that is, it's not a bad second to a sav.

No offense taken. I know how irritating it can be to be targetted... but I also know I'm just concerned for the welfare of the animals. Its really nothing personal... I am a new monitor keeper but I've been researching these guys for the last 8 months or so..and have talked to a lot of people who own them. I have one friend who is going to be trying to breed Bosc's next year when his female is big enough. I didn't mean to sound offensive to you...My first concern is the animal in all this. And trying to make any animal what it isn't.. never turns out well.

And yes you do have your right to your opinions.. but so do we. Making a blanket statement like "All the other monitors I've seen are ugly" does tend to annoy some people who think they're beautiful animals. On my part... no animal is ugly. They each have their own unique appearence and habits. I don't like spiders that much ( a brown recluse bite assured that one) but I can admit that they are beautiful in their own way. Personally, in a few years time, I want to try my hand at breeding Bosc's...plus purchasing a Black roughneck..Or a Blue tree monitor.. (I think thats what it was in the post down a bit)They are wild animals..but as long as humans have a desire for exotic "pets" the animals will keep being imported. In their native habitat, Bosc's are relished as a food source more than for their skins. So they have 2 avenues of predation... One for the pet trade.. and one as a food source. Not to mention all the hatchlings that are picked off by other predators. To me, breeding captive animals is a far more preferable method of procuring Bosc's. It would take pressure off them in their native habitats if more people could do it...then the prices would lower on CB animals eventually and people would be interested in purchasing them instead of only looking at the price tag. In Most reptiles that I've seen.. CB animals remain much calmer through their lives than wild caught counterparts. I attribute that to not having the stresses of wild living put on them at an early age and they become accustomed to humans who have been present since they hatched.

Have you considered blackthroat monitors? They are closely related to Savannahs (similar size, shape and build), but you can get them CB. They also have nicer colors and patterns IMO. Try www.proexotics.com, look in their photo gallery and see if you like em. Of course they are more expensive but it's worth it for a CB animal.

Oh yeah, I heard they were calmer too. But I've never owned a Savannah or Blackthroat so I can't attest.

???
I have NO comment.

Yeah I've really been doing my research on these monitors. Ever since my friend got a savannah and i held it in my hand there was just some weird attraction I had towards this animal. And I've checked out other monitors and none of them seem to appeal to me as much. However I have just now been looking into why the savannahs prices are so cheap and I almost feel like I would be commiting some kind of crime if I bought one of these cheap lizards that was stripped from its home. Actually right now I think I'm leaning more towards a Yellow Ackie. I live in a small apartment and it will probably be wiser in the long run to get a smaller lizard. Especially since this will be my first monitor. However I dont want to spend more than 100 bucks on a lizard! Hopefully I'll find a cheaper one at the reptile show next week. Wish me luck!! And thank you everyone for your helpful advice. DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN GET AN ACKIE FOR 100 dollars or LESS??? Anyone selling??!