Reptile & Amphibian Forums

At a reptile show almost two years ago, we bought six one week old dragons. Three died shortly after. The three left were a runt gray-green colored one, an active yellow one and a red with two clubbed feet. The little gray one was not quite right, soft bones, not very active and always bobbing his/her head, almost falling over in the process. We figured that if s/he hadn't died at first and was eating, s/he would be alright. But three weeks ago, I took her out to run around (safely inside the house of course) and I saw that one eye was gone and the other swollen like when our older dragon got stung by a bee. Upon further examination, s/he was cold, impacted and the remaining eye was leaking bloody mucus when treated with a warm rag. Not wanting him/her to die, I soaked him/her daily in warm water, made sure she drank and gave her some baby food. Few days later she died.
Worrying this was a genetic disorder, I compared the remaining two males to the six months younger male we had bought when we thought that they were females. The younger dragon was more active and held himself up, not moving with his belly to the ground like the others. So we watered and gave baby food and dusted crickets to them. Couple days later, I get the yellow one out and he's dead.
The only one left, seeming against the odds, is the club-foot. He's got soft ribs, but his legs are firm. He's looking around when I get him out and eating and drinking. The yellow was doing this too before he died. Is there anything we can do or any advice anyone has?

I'm sorry for your loss. Right now it would be nothing more than a guessing game with what little info we have. Can you give us a little more information?

1. What are the hot end, cold end, and basking site temperatures?

2. Type of substrate?

3. Type of UVB light, if any?

4. Did you leave crickets in the cage overnight?

5. Any ants, spiders or anything else in the cage?

6. Were the 2 that died kept together in the same cage?

7. I assume the one that's 6mos. younger wassn't housed with the any of the others, correct?

8. Any pesticides or chemicals used near the cage?

Some of these questions are at least borderline irrelevant but this will help cut down on the Q & A part.

Hang in there!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

You beat me to it. Didn't mean to repost your same questions.
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0.10.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise

Ha, ha! Its about time I beat someone else instead of always getting beat myself. That's happened to me plenty of times.

From the looks of it I must've hit "Post" about the same time you hit "Reply."

Its really embarassing when you're on a super busy forum and by the time you hit "POst" three other people have already posted the same thing. That's when you learn to type fast. LOL!

Take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

In response to HappyHillbilly's questions:

Be note that this is the same environment that we've had three bearded live to a ripe old age in.

1. The thermometer is very cheap, but the hot end, cold end, basking temperatures are about the recommended
2. Sand substrate
3. UV 5.0 light
4. Crickets are left in all the time, along with plenty of cricket chow (cracked corn chicken feed from the feed store)
5. Nothing but dragon, crickets, sand and a climbing stick usually in the cage.
6. The odd one had been moved to a different cage with the same set up a while before it died
7. The new one was in with them when they were all younger, but we've moved them since they got too big.
8. The only possible poison would be mop water, and that's highly unlikely.

Sorry I didn't answer earlier. I had an all day program three hours away during the weekend and fell asleep as soon as I got home.

OK, sorry 'bout my delay as I've been busier than (fill in the blank).

I'm in a hurry to get you a reply ASAP, so, please don't take offense if I'm short, straight-forward. I'm not the rude type, just in a hurry.

> > > "Be note that this is the same environment that we've had three bearded live to a ripe old age in.

This is good to know, especially that you've got some experience with bearded dragons. Even though everything, overall, may be the same, its usually the little factors that are different that add up making a notable difference.

1. Temperatures: This is a vital area since a few degrees one way or another can affect animals in many different ways. Ballpark figures can be detriminal. Don't take this the wrong way, but, "...about the recommended" isn't good enough. "106 degrees on the hot end, 77 on the cool end," is the type of information needed.

I use an inexpensive digital indoor/outdoor thermometer that has a probe on a wire that can read the opposite end of the cage from where the thermometer base is. It cost $11 at Wal-Mart and I have several that I use in different setups.

2. Substrate: "Sand substrate"
Children's Playsand or a spceialty reptile sand?

3. UVB: "UV 5.0 light"
A bit weak, requires it to be close to the beardies, but can work in some cases.

4. Crickets: "Crickets are left in all the time, along with plenty of cricket chow (cracked corn chicken feed from the feed store)"
Not a good idea to leave crickets in overnight. In fact, its BAD. Crickets come to life at night, when dragons are trying to sleep, rest. Crickets can & will not only stress beardies, but they'll also eat on them. Eyeballs, scales/skin, etc...

I forgot to ask if you dusted their food with calcium, multivitamins, etc… I don't see how you could properly supplement the crickets if they're left in the cage continuously. Even if you dusted them before putting them in, the dust will get rubbed off usually by the time morning comes around.

The cricket feed (chicken feed) could be harmful to beardies if they eat it, depends on what all's in it. I also know that most poultry feed will mold/mildew easily, creating even more potential health threats.

I feel that the rest of the Q & A aren’t as relevant to the situation as these are.

Its too hard for me to pinpoint, single out, anything among those things I consider to be factors in the beardie’s demise. I’ll be glad to help you sort things out thru discussion so we can get your husbandry skills on track.

Honestly? I hate to say this ‘cause I don’t want to tick you off to where you tune me out, but, the context of both your posts gives me the impression that you’ve been sidetracked in taking care of the dragons like they need/should be. It happens to the best of us, even myself.

Hang in there!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I don't mind people being straightfoward, better than moving in polite circles.

1. I'll try to watch the thermometer more, but Dad says that so long as it's not too hot or too cold, they're fine and temperature is not the problem. (probably going to get jumped on for that)

2. We use play sand, which I know I'm going to get jumped on about, too. We could use reptile sand just as easy, but it'd be a lot more expensive.

3. What strenght UVB do you recommend? Dad says that 5.0 is the strongest he's seen.

4. The beardeds, leopard geckos, plated lizard, everybody we've had lived with crickets their entire and continuing lives. I think in ten years we've had one case of toe-eating and that turned out to be a White Cuban Tree Frog (we put a better lid on and moved the frog).
The cricket food would likely be just more fiber for the dragons, if they eat it at all. It gets pressed even with the sand soon after being put in. Since it's kept dry and we go through it pretty fast, I don't think mold would be a problem.

5. I dust with "Dragon Dust by T-Rex". It says it's designed for every feeding, but I dust them usually every other.

Thank you for your help.

You're more than welcome for me trying to help, I only hope I can. However, I see that my work's cut out for me 'cause not only do I have to try to convince you, I ultimately have to convince dear ol' dad. LOL!

You mentioned keeping other creatures under similar conditions for 10yrs or so. I'll not go into the other animals at the moment and stick with Bearded Dragons, the reason you're here.

Bearded Dragons live on average between 5 - 8 years of age. Not to be rude, but, I'll bet that you haven't kept a beardie alive under the same conditions as those in question for any longer than 2yrs. max. That's way less than half their lifespan.

There's good reasons why Leopard Geckos have different requirements than Bearded Dragons. There are good reasons why a juvenile or older beardie needs a basking site of 100 - 105 degrees F (110- 115 for babies) and a cool end of the cage at 75 - 80.

Their bodies have to reach a certain temperature before it can function properly. Too little heat and they can't digest their food properly, makes them lethargic, and several other things.

Too hot/cold may or may not be the culprit in your situation, I can't see good enough from where I'm sitting to make that call at the moment. I will say that it could easily be one of many factors, though. You get enough bad factors and things go bad.

1. With all due respect, your dad's principle is flawed. 50 degrees is neither too hot or too cold for a human. Who wants to live in 50-degree temperature, without any clothing or anything else to keep them warm? Humans are warm-blooded, beardies are not. Neither to we fit them with clothes, blankets, etc...

How long would a human live in constant 50-degree weather? I'm betting they wouldn't live near the average lifespan.

2. Children's play sand is fine. I recommend it over the specialty reptile stuff any day of the week.

3. The 5.0 UVB lights are the weakest. I think you're dad might have that one turned around. I say that from experience, the older we get, the more we seem to do it. Ha!

I recommend at least 7.0, preferrably 10.0. (Reptisun 10.0)

4. Honestly, not sarcastically; I'd be real surprised if any of your creatures that had to share their cage with crickets lived anywhere near their potential lifespan. Stress being the #1 concern, cricket bites being #2.

There are rare situations that it might could work. The animal would have to be able to completely escape the crikets, retreating to a place crickets couldn't/wouldn't go.

Does your dad eat chicken? Does he have chickens free-roaming in the house?

Dragons are inquisitive. Cricket (poultry) feed getting mixed into the sand could lead a dragon that likes the taste of it to consume enough sand to cause impaction.

5. I'm not familiar with the Dragon Dust but based on the product info I found it appears to be OK.

Here's the link to a good care sheet on bearded dragons: www.dachiu.com/care/abeard.html I strongly recommend reading it & following it, closely.

There's a chance that nothing I addressed here is the cause of your beardies' death. There are so many flaws in your husbandry that they could be detracting attention. I say that out of genuine concern for your beardies, which of course you obviously are concerned about or else you wouldn't be here.

If I took care of my truck like you take care of your animals I'd be walking. There's more to it than just filling up with gas and hitting the gas pedal.

Many a lizard, snakes, too, for that matter, have died slow deaths at early ages due to lack of proper heat, setup, care, etc... Please love your animals enough to try to give them the best. They depend on you. They're there for your enjoyment, make it last.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Different lizards come from different climates. Every climate has different temperatures and humidity. It seems your dad wants to just lump them into all one category. Bearded Dragons only live in part of Australia. Why don't they live in all of Australia? Simple, the conditions are not suitable for them in the other areas. So other lizards and species of dragons live there. It is our job to duplicate as best as possible the conditions for each reptile species. Most of this has been mentioned but I'll list it again anyway.

1. Bearded Dragons require a basking spot temp. for adults of 105 - 110, a little warmer for juveniles >8" and babies 110-115. The ambient (background) temp on the hot side of the cage should be 85 to the low 90's and the cool side should be 75-80 or room temp. if it is a large enclosure.

2. I too use play sand for dragons over 12". Some use it for smaller dragons but I use reptile carpet to eliminate any impaction risk.

3. A 5.0 UVB gives penetration to 12" so you really need to have a short enclosure to use one. Zoo Med recommends the 10.0 for distances up to 20" or when the light must pass through a fine screen.

4. Just because you've always done it that way doesn't make it right. HH, I like the chicken analogy. I can't imagine trying to sleep with chickens in my bed. lol. You really need to change that practice. I think you'd have a tough time finding anyone that would ever do it the way you are. At very minimum all live food should be removed before lights out. Crickets are active at night when dragons are not. At best all this will do is cause stress to your dragon. I have a rescued dragon with no inner (3rd) eyelids because of crickets left in at night.

5. I would not use this product. There have been some problems reported in the past here regarding its use and Bearded Dragons. You can search the 2004 achives here and there's many postings. Live food should be dusted with calcium w/D3 (No phosphorus or Vitamin A)every meal except one that should be dusted with a multivitamin (again No Vitamin A). RepCal seems like the best choice for both.

Glad you liked the chickens. Ha! N/P

Nice touchup, follow-thru, on the points, too.

Later!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

We know that beardeds don't live over a decade often, I was refering to the other multitude of animals we have/had. But our oldest we've had for six or seven years and she's still goin' strong.
We know dragons and leopard geckos need different set up, we give them that. Back to numbers:
1. Dad doesn't judge on human temperature likes. The lowest temperature there ever was probably happened during a power outage (they're getting ready to pounce. We have a genarator now), but besides that it hasn't gotten cold in there.
2. Good to hear, play sand works well.
3. We'll look and get one next time we see it.
4. Jasmine, our oldest, has lived with crickets all her 8 to (unlikely) 11 years. The petshop we got her and a possibly boyfriend from kept them like that, and it was fine with us. That shop is sadly gone now, we think the owner died.
5. Now someone else is finding problems with the dust (hope I don't sound snapping).

Thank you again for your sugestions on improvements, but does anyone have an idea on what killed them? I believe I've outlined everything with a fine-tipped pen.

No I don't think you "sound snapping" as you say.

But I will say that you are resistant to other peoples opinions. If it was me and I had a sick dragon and others had died under the same conditions I would certainly make some significant changes in the hope that it might help.

I'm glad you have a dragon that is 8 years old. But, keep in mind that just because she has lived that long does not mean her conditions have been optimal. And, just because she survived under these conditions certainly does not mean that all other dragons would have.

Pets stores leave crickets in full time because they are either too busy, too lazy, or just don't know any better. This is just a silly point to discuss since a good keeper tries to duplicate what the species would experience in the wild. Certainly, a bunch of crickets are not contained in a dragons sleeping area.

I've never used the dragon dust so I don't have personal experience. But, well known herp specialists have and have indicated to me that they have had problems. It has also been posted here in the past as I stated earlier if you care to research it.

I guess the end of this discussion is that posters have taken the time to offer suggestions to you regarding your problem. It is now up to you to decide if you'd like to make any significant changes in your husbandry.

Hope I don't sound snappy. lol.

Sorry for so long between posts but I'm flat out covered up. Its now 3:00 am in my neck of the woods and I've got to get my fanny to bed.

I read your replies earlier today but didn't have time to post a reply then, either. I'll post some things I've been thinking about later on today (Thurs. 6/21). I've been trying to exclude the things we've been discussing lately, as if all husbandry/living conditions were perfect, to see if I'm able to help you come up with an answer.

No, you didn't soound snappy to me, either. Ha! Honestly, I hope I didn't come across rude or too forceful in any of my replies. I've been super busy and awfully tired by the time I get around to checking out the forums so that may have inadvertently had an effect on my posts.

In an effort to lighten the mood in the meantime, let me touch on one of your last responses.

> > > "The petshop we got her and a possibly boyfriend from kept them like that, and it was fine with us. That shop is sadly gone now, we think the owner died."

Uhh, was the owner by chance pecked to death by a bunch of chickens during his/her sleep?

> > > "I believe I've outlined everything with a fine-tipped pen."

Ya got a highlighter? Try it. Ha! Ha!

Smile!

Ya'll take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Thank you all for your suggestions and mocking, but I'm tired of being scolded and informed that I'm a bad pet owner. The incusion of the fact we feed the crickets cracked corn, commonly used as chicken feed, was meant to be helpful. And the petshop owner likely died from a second stroke.
Everyoe's advice has been a great help. Maybe we should all meet face to face some time and play a game of Spot the Sarcasm. I came here to find out what killed the dragons, not what's wrong with their habitats. If dragons needed such a exact climate, they wouldn't be here. And this might be the reason I seem resistant to advice
Perhaps I should go isolate myself somewhere far away from everything so I don't condemn anything else to a slow death. While I'm looking for that place, I'll give the dragons more sun and such. I'll also research illnesses with the symptoms like the dead dragons had. Maybe a professial has figured put what was wrong.
This post is probably incredibly rude to you others, but hey, what do you expect from a frustred teen?

It appears that I may have crossed the line with my humor. I honestly meant no disrespect to you in referrencing the "fine point pen" comment you made earlier with my "highlighter" comment. Nor did I mean any disrespect to you, the deceased petshop owner, or any family & friends of the aforementioned.

My chicken analogy had nothing whatsoever to do with what you were feeding the crickets. I'm from the country and I suppose that since I'm always around chickens (not inside my house, though) it was the first thing that popped into my mind to try to give an example of a similar situation. That was not intended as a mockery or anything sarcastic, merely an analogy.

I was merely trying to break the ice, trying to smooth things out with humor. I use humor to make people smile. It helps take their minds off their troubles if but for a fleeting moment.

Things get lost in translation on the Internet. We can't see people's faces, expressions, making it hard to determine one's intent.

My father passed away in February of lung cancer at the age of 71. I'm a lot like he was, a practical, commonsense person. Since my mother and I are the only surviving immediate family members we went to the funeral home to make the arrangements, pick out a casket, and all the other formalities pertaining to death.

The funeral home employee was trying to talk my mom into a fancy water-tight vault guaranteed not to ever leak. I looked over at my mom and calmly said, "Dad knew how to swim." We started laughing and got the typical, average vault.

Never be too sad, too busy, or too mature, to smile, its unhealthy.

I'll attempt to address each issue in your original post here in a minute. Just bear with me, follow me there. However, I'll give you the best advice that anyone can give you right now. Take the remaining dragon to a qualified Vet asap.

Incidentally, none of us here are paid for what we do. Most of us came here to learn about something or another and have ended up staying on to try to help other keepers, like yourself. We do so because we care about Bearded Dragons. We want to dispel a lot of the myths, to teach people the right way to take care of their animals, for both the animal's health and the keeper's enjoyment.

I'm not a young teenager enjoying my summer vacation from school by spending late nights hanging out on a bearded dragon forum. Nor am I saying their's anything wrong with that. I am a 45yr old self-employed husband, father of two (12 & 8) with many animals, reptiles and rodent feeders to take care of.

Please go back and take note of the timestamp on my replies to you the last few days or so. Most were posted between 12a.m. - 2a.m. Why isn't a grown man in bed at that time of night instead of making sure he at least let's a forum member know that he's been thinking about their problem. I get up at 6a.m., so if I make a post at 2:19a.m., that means that the most sleep I will get that night is 3 1/2 hrs. All for what? Fame & fortune? Ha! Not hardly.

I've got over 30 years experience as a successful reptile keeper. I've only had one animal die within my care and that was a beardie that was severely impacted before I got her. She was past the point of no return prior to my acquisition of her.

Am I perfect in my animal husbandry? Absolutely not. But I do care enough about my animals not to trust merely one person's techniques without doing my own research on the matter.

Warning! Please fasten your seatbelt due to the possibility of turbulence ahead.

Be forewarned. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or rude, that's just not my nature. However, I feel the need to be straightforward, to the point with you, which is unusual for me.

> > > "I came here to find out what killed the dragons, not what's wrong with their habitats."

It appears that you are refusing to see that we've been trying to tell you all along that the husbandry flaws we see could have very well led to their deaths, or at least expedited it.

> > > "If dragons needed such a exact climate, they wouldn't be here."

"...they wouldn't be here."
Didn't you have some dragons that are no longer there?
Some of yours are no longer here and you cannot positively rule out their cage conditions.

> > > "I'll also research illnesses with the symptoms like the dead dragons had."

Honestly, had you done this BEFORE they died they might very well still be alive today.

> > > "Maybe a professial has figured put what was wrong."

Yes, they call them Veterinarians. Some people take their sick bearded dragons to a qualified reptile Vet when they notice the symptoms you mentioned.

Of course, "notice" being the keyword here. This requires checking on them daily, knowing how much food they consume daily (Which can't be done if crickets are casually housed in the same cage.), observing the behavior on a day-to-day basis, etc...

OK, if you're still with me you deserve this step-by-step approach at other possible causes to the symptoms described within your first post. But it would do you a lot of good to stop right here and give me a big smile. Ha! Ha!

C'mon, even though I don't agree with your husbandry techniques that doesn't make you a bad person in my eyes. I don't hate you nor am I mad at you. If I didn't care antyhing about you and/or your dragons I wouldn't take all of this valuable time to make this lengthy post.

Here we go:
* You acquired 6 babies, 3 of which died shortly thereafter, the remaining 3 weren't in the best of health.

You said in another post that you've kept another dragon for 6 - 7 yrs - plus, under the same conditions as the above 3. Here's where husbandry comes into play, and BDlvr explained it already but I'll try even harder to get you to see what he meant.

You may very well be able to keep some dragons under those conditions, IF they are in good health, having good, strong, internal organs and a will to survive. Throw an already sick or deformed dragon under the same conditions and they'll most certainly die.

This is why they have care sheets with specific temperature & setup recommendations. These temps & setup suggestions stem from years of studies and are meant to replicate the optimal environment that dragons function best at.

* > > > "The little gray one was not quite right, soft bones, not very active and always bobbing his/her head, almost falling over in the process."

My not actually witnessing the head bobbing, I don't know if its a symptom or social behavior, but I get the impression that you know the difference.

With that said, the rest of these symptoms could indicate MBD (Metabolic Bone Disease). Sometimes when eggs are incubated at low temperatures the hatchlings have MBD symptoms. This would be my first suspicion based upon your info.

Other possibilities include: inner ear infections (not considering the soft bones), overheating, viruses, and a few more.

* > > > "...one eye was gone and the other swollen... ...cold, impacted and the remaining eye was leaking bloody mucus..."

Let's get the obvious out of the way first. As far as I'm aware of, eyeballs don't fall out on their own. There is a chance that she could have poked herself in the eye and the eyeball remained on whatever poked it (limb, etc...). A slim chance. Given the fact that crickets are continuously in her cage, crickets are the most likely reason for the eyeball not being in place.

The two main things, other than crickets, that could cause the eyes to be in said condition are: (1) Dust from a sand substrate or calcium-based substrate (2) Mercury vapor UVB light. Sometimes internal infections can cause similar conditions but the above two are the most common causes.

That's it. Overlooking your husbandry as much as I can, those are the only other things I can come up with.

Troubleshooting involves the process of elimination. You eliminate the obvious first. You match up symptoms with conditions and make any/all adjustments necessary in an effort to narrow it down.

Had you followed our advice from the beginning you might have very well had your answer by now. But I'll go ahead and give you my assessment, which should not take the place of a qualified Vet's.

I sincerely believe that you had a gentically deformed group of bearded dragons trying to survive in sub-par conditions. Against all odds.

Have a great day!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Well, what's your set up like? Do you have a UVB bulb? Are you supplementing with calcium? Temps?
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0.10.0 Ball Pythons
0.1.1 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Egyptian Tortoise

From your description it sounds like they are all in the same cage and you don't pay much, if any attention to them. All the symtims you described don't just happen over night. Soft bones means MBD, infected and swollen eyes, usually indicates a serious infection, either from somthing getting into their eyes or from a fight injury.

My suggestion, take you last dragon to a vet asap. All these dragons should have gone to a vet when the first one died.
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PHLdyPayne