Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can we go after this guy (politically) that did the dirty politics?

Can we form some group and perhaps put out a letter that would be aimed at rescending the offending sections? And have people sign it. There must be tons of Texas herpers that do have a voice, although I am somewhat apathetic at the response top the faxes and e-mails that took place?

I think that letting this go and just giving up is going to fair negatively for all states. They have a way of catching the flu so to speak when a precedent of some sort is set?

If you should decide to respond tot he govenor I would like to be involved witht he process....CHeers!
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www.phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

in no particular order.

We can start writing and calling TPWD and see if they plan to fix this themselves. They actually CAN, by issuing permits or non-game stamps that will allow us to collect on Roads and ROW's.

We need to produce a form letter to distribute at every single business where we spend money explaining what happened, why it happened, and how we can fix it. We need to hit home the fact that this legislation mainly effects those businesses in the Trans Pecos , the largest counties with the lowest population, and thus per capita income. Highlight the fact that Harvey Chairs the tourism committee and just squashed a significant portion of their seasonal income.

We also need to start contacting our Reps and Senators and see who is willing to fix this for us next session if we can't get TPWD to rectify the situation.

Also DON'T TAKE IT OUT ON THE FIELD WARDENS!
The current crop of wardens in the field in the Trans Pecos are going to be important allies if we plan to get this thing fixed. I know you are frustrated with the outcome, as am I, but let's not misdirect our anger. Don't make their job harder, in fact get to know them, and spend some time talking to them.

I've been in the field in the Trans Pecos for over 30 years now and I can tell you first hand these guys are major improvements over the field agents we dealt with 30 years ago.

Politely arguing a point is one thing, but provoking them is another. In the end it's your right to choose what to do, but it is in our best interest to prove ourselves to be responsible and trust worthy.

>>>We can start writing and calling TPWD and see if they plan to fix this themselves. They actually CAN, by issuing permits or non-game stamps that will allow us to collect on Roads and ROW's.
Is this an existing permit, or something new that they have the authority to create?

>>> We need to produce a form letter to distribute at every single business where we spend money explaining what happened
Good idea. Would the summary page from LogoJoe.com serve this purpose? Perhaps with some slight revisions?

>>> We also need to start contacting our Reps and Senators and see who is willing to fix this for us next session
I suspect they will take a wait and see approach. Of course, they’ll take more notice once we take down HH.

>>> Also DON'T TAKE IT OUT ON THE FIELD WARDENS!
You’re such a killjoy! I hate it when common sense and good judgment stand in the way of my dastardly plans.

>>> In the end it's your right to choose what to do.
I’ll resort to my dastardly plans if and when any LE makes it apparent that building bridges is futile.

>>>>>We can start writing and calling TPWD and see if they plan to fix this themselves. They actually CAN, by issuing permits or non-game stamps that will allow us to collect on Roads and ROW's.
>>Is this an existing permit, or something new that they have the authority to create?

This would be something new, but it is possible they had it in the works the whole time knowing full well HH would carry out their wishes no matter what.

>>
>>>>> We need to produce a form letter to distribute at every single business where we spend money explaining what happened
>>Good idea. Would the summary page from LogoJoe.com serve this purpose? Perhaps with some slight revisions?

Yes, a few revisions are in order. Additions are of course as mentioned, the bottom line being lost revenue. Lost revenue is key as you know everything else associated with cost of living is sky rocketing, every dollar, even every penny counts. And having the tourism committee chair commit the offense? Priceless.
>>
>>>>> We also need to start contacting our Reps and Senators and see who is willing to fix this for us next session
>>I suspect they will take a wait and see approach. Of course, they’ll take more notice once we take down HH.

I prefer the term "voted out of office", just to be clear about our intentions.

>>
>>>>> Also DON'T TAKE IT OUT ON THE FIELD WARDENS!
>>You’re such a killjoy! I hate it when common sense and good judgment stand in the way of my dastardly plans.

You are far smarter than you make out to be on these forums, I know that for a fact. I can tell you that the "current" crop of Field Wardens had NOTHING to do with this, and were not even consulted about the legislation. They also have VERY FEW problems with snake hunters, just a few bad apples in the bunch. The rest of the reports from the Field Wardens are very favorable and we need these guys as our allies. No law enforcement agency in the country should be run without input from the Field, as in this particular case, as least from the Trans Pecos region.

>>
>>>>> In the end it's your right to choose what to do.
>>I’ll resort to my dastardly plans if and when any LE makes it apparent that building bridges is futile.

Right, that is how the Wardens determine course of action too. In other words, you reap what you sew, and it goes both ways.

What exactly do you mean, Joe? How exactly do you suggest we handle it with the Game Wardens? They can choose to look the other way if they are on our side.

I agree we need to form an organization to fight HB 12 and the "White List". We have until September to legally challenge this "White List" before all the turtle breeders have to liquidate their collections they have spent a lifetime building.

We need to get a lawyer involved. He maybe able to discover why HB 12 and the "White List" are illegal in some way. We also need to have an attorney retained to fight any tickets.

We also need to find and start working with the Rep who is going to introduce an amendment on our behalf to get these things repealed or amended.

I am willing to help in anyway possible. Please let me know.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Clarification: I understand the being polite to LE part but what is the game plan if we get pulled? Just looking for inverts?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

>>Clarification: I understand the being polite to LE part but what is the game plan if we get pulled? Just looking for inverts?
>>
>>Mike Welker
>>El Paso, TX

Mike,
They can NOT look the other way. They have a job to do and that job is enforcing game laws.

I would suggest you plead the fifth before you lie to their faces.

If you REALLY are looking for inverts then say so, If you really are just photographing animals then say so.

Each of you will have to decide for yourselves what to say because each of you will doing different things.

Just make sure you know what is and what isn't against the law. If you get cited prepare to fight it in COURT. You can still argue without being rude and belligerent. That's all I'm trying to say.

I also did not say they are ON OUR SIDE. I said they could be IMPORTANT allies if we plan on getting this thing fixed.

Do you see what I'm trying say? I guess another way to say it is, don't drive a wedge between us and the enforcement officers in the field. THey are not responsible for the creation of this law, but they WILL be enforcing it.

Understood?

Joe,

This is where you and I part company, my friend, philosophically speaking. This law was an abomination of justice the way it passed; it will be an abomination of justice when it takes effect, and an abomination of justice if it is enforced. I have no qualms about lying to a Game Warden if the Game Warden has no qualms about putting this ABOMINATION OF JUSTICE at the top of his enforcement priorities. My first recommendation to Game Wardens is to revolt (like right, that’s going to happen). My second recommendation to Game Wardens is to drive on by or carry a personal lie detector kit-lol!!!!!

Now, I will do everything in my power to help you in this fight AND YOU KNOW THAT, but being honest and true-blue to a Game Warden if he insists on enforcing this miscarriage of justice isn’t going to be one of them.

Robert

I'm telling you that the guys in the field now are good guys, way better than the fellows they replaced, I mean WAY better.

Now if they don't enforce the law, they will lose their job and the top brass will get someone in there that will enforce the law. Simple as that. Then it gets even harder on this.

You guys do what you have to do. My advice is free and for that matter it is worth what you paid for it, however, I'm here to tell everyone that if we drive a bigger wedge between us and the enforcement officials in the field it makes our row harder to sew.

We took a hit in the short term, the long term is yet to be determined. Be smart about this people.

If you guys can't enjoy West Texas without taking a sack full of Reptiles and Amphibians collected from the road side home with you then we are going to have problems in the long run.

This is no longer about the law, this is now about public perception and erosion of personal privileges. We have a huge problem with public perception because we are misunderstood. If we can't change that then we have no hope.

I going to say it again, the wardens in the field are not the enemies. The enemy is the bureaucracy making laws that are not by the people and for the people.

Out of staters are facing a much bigger issue with Lacey Act implications.

At this time, we need time to work it out, and time is one thing that we now have. I understand that not everyone is going to agree with me, and some folks are going to do what they please anyway. All I ask is to keep in mind that the actions of each and every individual reflect on our whole community.

Why the heck would anyone want to help us if we can't act responsibly in the face of this adversity? Do the right thing. And if you are going to lie to a Game Wardens face don't put it in print on a public forum, it can be used as evidence against you in a court of law.

Robert,
You don't get it.
The Game Wardens had no say-so or input about this law.
The Game Wardens are just doing THEIR job, as enforcement officers.

Getting into their face or smart-talking them will only get you cuffed, and ticketed.

Herpers will get a bad name from folks who flagrantly show disrespect to Enforcement Officers.

Randal Berry

"Getting into their face or smart-talking them will only get you cuffed, and ticketed. Herpers will get a bad name from folks who flagrantly show disrespect to Enforcement Officers"

Randall,

Apparently it is YOU that doesn't get it. Reread my post s-l-o-w-l-y this time and find where I mention, or even hint at disrepectful behavior. I choose my words carefully; that's not even close to what I posted. You have to trust me on this one.

Robert

Robert,
By admitting that you would lie to an LE Officer, shows disrespect.

Randal

Randall,

You need to find a dictionary, son. Look up disrespect. What does it say? Lack of respect; discourtesy. Now you have to look up respect. What does it say? To feel or show honor or esteem for, to show consideration for.

Now look up truthful. Telling the truth; honest; corresponding with fact or reality. The PLAIN MEANING of my post was NOT to be disrespectful to the Game Warden. Other than STANDARD ENGLISH, we obviously have a difference of opinion of what constitutes disrespectful behavior.

Robert

Robertt,
I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you.
You are comparing apples to oranges.

You have admitted on an open forum that you would lie to a Game Warden. THAT is disrespectful.

That is what I meant.
Ya think TPWD aren't reading and taking names?

Also, thanks for calling me son! Makes me feel younger than my 55 yrs of age!

Randal

No pissing contest necessary. Randall, if you're referring to the distinction I'm making between disrespectful behavior and being untruthful as comparing apples to oranges, you are right because they are DIFFERENT. If you can't make the distinction between being disrespectful and being untruthful, then you need to go back to school-because it's never too late to get a good education-lol.

Robert

NEVER said Un-truthful.
Said dis-respectful.
Go back and re-read my post very carefully.

You stated that YOU WOULD LIE to a Game Warden if YOU were pulled over,or confronted by a Game Warden.

QUOTE:
I have no qualms about lying to a Game Warden if the Game Warden has no qualms about putting this ABOMINATION OF JUSTICE.

Pretty simple really, by admitting that YOU WOULD LIE to an Game Warden shows dis-respect, plain and simple.

I, and others who read this cannot understand why you don't get it. You are a sad example of a "Johnny-come-Lately" who opposes SB12. I NEVER saw you at the hearings, I never saw an email or anything from you when we were fighting this since March.
Go to
www.Texsasreptiles.com
and see HOW LONG we have been fighting this.
Joe Forks, Dave Barker, and many others have been on top of this for 4 months. Please go to my website and click on the top concerning this.

People like you who OPENLY admit that you WOULD LIE if pulled over makes all of the herpers in the great state of TEXAS, and herpers world-wide, LOOK BAD.

You don't represent me, nor other herpers in Texas.

Cheers,
Randal

Randall, did you graduate high school? Here's what you wrote in reply to my post about being untruthful (lying) to a Game Warden IF he chose to make enforcement of this law a priority.

Robert,
You don't get it.
The Game Wardens had no say-so or input about this law.
The Game Wardens are just doing THEIR job, as enforcement officers.

Getting into their face or smart-talking them will only get you cuffed, and ticketed.

Herpers will get a bad name from folks who flagrantly show disrespect to Enforcement Officers.

Here's most of what I wrote:

I have no qualms about lying to a Game Warden if the Game Warden has no qualms about putting this ABOMINATION OF JUSTICE at the top of his enforcement priorities. My first recommendation to Game Wardens is to revolt (like right, that’s going to happen). My second recommendation to Game Wardens is to drive on by or carry a personal lie detector kit-lol!!!!!

Now, I will do everything in my power to help you in this fight AND YOU KNOW THAT, but being honest and true-blue to a Game Warden if he insists on enforcing this miscarriage of justice isn’t going to be one of them.

Being untruthful to a Game Warden under these circumstances (and perhaps any circumstance) IS NOT "getting into their face or smart-talking them or flagrantly showing disrespect. Get it!

Randall, for somebody who doesn't want to get into a pissing match you just took in a mouthful of piss. To put it simply: you must be a boob. Please go back to school, learn how to read, write and discern the meaning of words.

Robert

Look,none of us has any more to lose than the other, be it photographer, casual collector or anyone with a hunting license, we lost what WAS a right by law, and the LE in the field have a job to do. If you push that attitude, you will be considered a poacher, and as much as I hate it, I will obey this law. I hope we can concentrate on getting the top brass to at least open up some WMAs and Parks to hunt herps on, just as we can buy the public game permit and get a map book showing us exactly where these places are. I believe this is the way it is gonna go and I would like to get a season in on Black Gap, Elephant Mountain and yes, even Big Bend S.P. But to lie to LE in the field is just wrong, be a man and say what you are doing, in the mean time, find some private land to hunt and help us do this right! No games, if HH wants a fight he already has one, and believe you me, I am gonna help expose all those responsible. I feel a right has been taken away, the falconers get away with this but we get taken down? Two outta three I say, 'cause I have not even started to stretch and flex! If we keep our heads and do this right, we will get something good out of this fiasco. I agree it was dirty pool, but we must have honor or it 'ain't worth having at all.
My rant is over, p.s., a warden I talked to in Brewster said he imagined it wouldn't go into effect until Sept. 1 but he didn't know for sure, he was polite and let me know BB is always listening in, so you will have hung yourself by stating your intentions, capice'?
Todd Hughes

I want to know about that Blond Tarantula! That is a very nice spider!

She was the only blonde I took home from my trip! I never kiss and tell, lol!
Todd Hughes

Unless you want a little German in you then you better spill the beans. I'll tell the Misses about that blond!

Answer your e-mail. I have cabinets to install!

I prefer the luck 'o' the Irish, I do! Beans spilled, what is that bugger? Mexican blonde legged, lol?
Todd Hughes

Hopefully, this goes into effect Sept 1, after the expiration of my $125 special annual. I will know soon. Like I said, given the scurrilous nature of this law, I personally don’t have a problem with ANYONE, including myself, being untruthful with the enforcement officials. Todd, there are laws everywhere that are not enforced by law enforcement officers; from immigration laws to antiquated sodomy laws for whatever reasons (perceived injustice, privacy violations, etc); to me this law is no different. The Game Wardens do have the discretion to apply enforcement to areas that need it most. Would I prefer to plead the Fifth under an act of civil disobedience given the right circumstances? The answer is a resounding yes, but the right circumstances need more time to develop.

R

I agree...to disagree! And applaud you for your right to do so, I just think Joe and Karl have the better approach, don't read me wrong, I just think we as a whole can do more than individuals. How many times are you gonna be out there, letting it all hang out and flaunt it? Do you visit enough to make it worth the trouble? I live a good 4 1/2 hours away but find myself drawn there more than I care to admit! You can't imagine how bad this is for me, for I was due this year!!! I "felt it in my bones", so to speak, and now, through no fault of my own, I am thwarted again. So we all feel the loss, but we need people like yourself who can calmly, rationally, and eloquently plead our case. Robert, I nominate that you put down that torch and pick up this one as representative of Arizona to plead the out of stater cause. Instead of infighting and civil disobedience, we should go to the "war room" and set up our offensive, backed by solid data, and force them to prove their points, which I believe HH can't do. I don't think he is gonna get a professional herpetologist on his team that can or will defend his claims when this goes to trial. I believe we can sue him. They may not listen to anyone who admittedly breaks this law, I could be wrong. For myself, I feel the right thing to do is to work the law around them and beat 'em at their own game. If HH isn't re-elected, it will be all the sweeter. I would like to see him defend himself and try to worm his way out, no way will we then take "my bad" for an answer. I want to see him pitched and publicly shamed for this bs!
Todd Hughes

Todd,
I'll take you down to my place in southern Brewster and let you walk right up one of the best looking alterna you could ever imagine, all you gotta do is - ahem help me with those cabinets! and cut a little Crown Molding

Heheh, done and done!
Todd Hughes

Good words from you both, but the guys that are in the trenches who know the area and the players should consider leading or spurring this, but instead of doing this indivdually, lets create that letter and do it as a solid unit that has something behind it. Give ourselves a name and see if LIngsnake would support us on this as far as crossing over into some of the other forums to bring attentin to the issues.

IF we collectively come with good options I feel this might be heard, instead of a group of individuals, we need the focus of this to make it happen right. If everyone is just throwing their stuff out there, I think we will miss the boat.

I am open and ready to help even though I am not a snake person (do lizards) I certianly do research and study as well as collect from time to time, so I am with you all, but lets think this thing out and put something together that is sensible and focused..... Just my insight and thoughts on it.
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www.phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]