Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We are in a tough spot on this one. An unfair law has been foisted on us by unjust means. We have a broad range of options for dealing with this in the field, but they mainly fall into two categories.

Civil Disobedience: MLK and Ghandi (not to compare ourselves or our plight) used open civil disobedience to openly defy unjust laws. Doing so, force authorities to either ignore the laws or face public scrutiny for enforcing them. InfoPlease describes civil disobedience as the “refusal to obey a law or follow a policy believed to be unjust. Practitioners of civil disobediance basing their actions on moral right and usually employ the nonviolent technique of passive resistance in order to bring wider attention to the injustice. Risking punishment, such as violent retaliatory acts or imprisonment, they attempt to bring about changes in the law.” Such an approach requires a lot of self discipline, honesty, and a willingness to accept short term hardships in order to achieve a substantive change in the law or enforcement practices. The main benefits of such an approach are that we maintain the moral high ground and we make the law look bad.

In our case, civil disobedience would be characterized by respecting a game warden while admitting we are acting in violation of an unfair law that was unjustly enacted. While respectfully defending our freedom to herp the roads, we should respect their obligation to enforce the law (even if they disagree with it). If they choose to ticket us, we should promise to fight the charge and advise the warden that in the meantime, we have no intention to stop road herping. While dealing with LE in the field, we should direct our complaints against Hilderbran and his ilk, NOT LE. Once before the JP, judge, jury or whatever, we should again defend our case and rail against HH and the unfairness and uselessness of this law. If found guilty, we should advise the court that we refuse to pay and that we want to pursue any and all possible appeals and challenges. If, at some point, we are found in contempt or ordered jailed, continue to voice our complaint (all the more publicly) from inside our cell. At no point should we bow to an unjust law, but we should not compromise our moral high ground in the process.

Obviously, this is a rather idealistic approach and many will not be able (due to valid employment, travel and financial restrictions) to willingly accept citations, convictions, or jail time. I won’t fault anyone for choosing a different course. A modified (and less risky) approach would involve exercising our Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate ourselves. Unless they see us in the act, they have no proof (or perhaps even invalid “proof” such a non roadside herp in our possession that is wrongly assumed to be proof of roadside hunting) and a very weak case. If they choose to cite us on such flimsy grounds, we should have little problem in getting the charges dismissed.

Un-Civil Violation: This is generally the practice of criminals and hooligans. However, honest and respectable citizens sometimes feel forced into illegal behavior and dishonesty to cover it up. While understandable, such behavior is not productive and typically backfires. The end result is usually that the lawbreakers look like criminals and the law seems more necessary than ever. I hope we don’t fall into this trap.

In our case, un-civil violation would be characterized by lying to or being belligerent toward a game warden while denying that we are aware of or in violation of the bad law. Game Wardens are train LE and can usually recognize a lie or cover up. Even if they can’t prove we are lying, they will know it and will become determined to catch and convict us. When questioned by their superiors (or press or politicians), they will undoubtedly report that we are a bunch of lying poachers that need to be stopped.

IF we lose all other options, I’m OK with this as a LAST RESORT. However, we need to be smart and explore more proper and respectable options first. Far better to expose, fight, and change the law than to simply break it and force the system to crack down even harder.

thanks for that.

Let’s go with the following scenario: The Game Warden stops me and asks what am I doing? I tell him I'm observing nocturnal wildlife and collecting invertebrates-no dishonesty yet. The Game Warden then asks are you also collecting snakes. That’s when I (we) would say, “I plead the fifth amendment”, and then the Game Warden does what? Please continue Daryl.

R

Wouldn't it be a hoot if I could show the Game Warden a piece of paper from an action group (Texas Herpers Against HB12) recommending that I plead the fifth amendment, ie, "this is what we (the action group) suggest you do every time a Game Warden asks you if you are collecting reptiles and amphibians from a road or right of way." Reading further down the page, "say it to show your support for your opposition to this unjust law"

Talk about frustrating enforcement!!!!!

R

That is a good idea. However, instead of "Texas Herpers Against HB12", I'd prefer something like, "Roadside Naturalists Against HB12".

Also, while "frustrating enforcement", we need to try our best NOT to frustrate or alienate individual LE officers.

>>>Let’s go with the following scenario: The Game Warden stops me and asks what am I doing? I tell him I'm observing nocturnal wildlife and collecting invertebrates-no dishonesty yet. The Game Warden then asks are you also collecting snakes. That’s when I (we) would say, “I plead the fifth amendment”, and then the Game Warden does what? Please continue Daryl.

I'm not sure if it would be best to jump straight to the 5th or first try redirection. Such as, "How would you answer that question if you were a reptile enthusiast dealing with an unjust law that was passed by one man, without the support or input from field agents like yourself?"

I'd probably even add something like, "I've always tried to respect the law and I truly appreciate the important and difficult job that you do. However, it is hard to respect a law that was made by ONE man using dirty political tricks to void an amendment passed by the ENTIRE house of representatives." I'd then ask again, "what would you do if you were me?" Then listen and respond to his reply.

At some point a question may be direct enough to force the use of the 5th. However, in the meantime, you are being respectful and responsive while hopefully causing the warden to resent the stupid law instead of resenting you.

Yes, yes, yes-that's all well and good, whether I jump to the 5th directly because I have this letter from the opposition group, or bob and weave a little before I get there, what comes next, baby? And, would "what comes next" depend on whether it is a reply (the fifth) from 1 herper, or a standardized reply from 10,000 herpers via a letter?

R

Oh, I guess I missed your real question.

If you're asking, "will the warden cite me?" and "will I win or lose my case?" I really don't know.

I may be psychotic, but I'm not psychic!

That being said, I strongly agree with your suggestion of a group document for stating our position and explaining our decision to plead the 5th. If nothing else it will help individual agents to see us as a legitimate group of aggrieved sportsmen instead of a bunch of individual poachers and scoff laws.

Are you volunteering to draft such a document? Otherwise, I’d nominate Troy to draft it for review and revision and approval. His insights from dealing with TPWD would be invaluable in drafting a document that they could respect.

Lol. I think "what comes next" could very well depend on whether every single herper that is stopped and questioned, produces a document from a group (to be formed and named), instructing the individual to respond with the Fifth regardless of guilt or innocence to show support for the opposition group and its tenets. Obviously, any final draft should be reviewed by an attorney. Troy, as author, sounds good to me. He might also be the one to bring together ALL the different herp groups in Texas.

R

without the support or input from field agents like yourself?"

Who's to say that LE aren't in favor of the law?

That comment was based on an earlier post from Joe Forks that a contact of his said the west Texas wardens weren't consulted about HB2414 or HB12. Some may approve of it, but apparently they did not have any input, pro or con.

Also, it never hurts IMO to give folks the benefit of the doubt (at least until they remove all doubt).

right, nobody said anything about for or against. I'm sure that varies with the individuals, however we can accurately say that

1) None of the current Trans Pecos Wardens in the Field have any Major problems with Herpers. A very small percentage probably account for the majority of the citations. I believe The citations are public record and can be reviewed to see exactly what was written up.

2) None of the current Trans Pecos Wardens in the Field were behind the push for the bill nor were they even consulted regarding the legislation.