Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First question- My incubator has a wire mesh square piece to set the eggs on. I have hatch rite as my substrate, should i just put this over this wire, even though it will probably fall through these holes in the wire?

Second question- once my snake lays her eggs, and hopefully it is in the container i've provided, what should be my procedures and precautions for moving them into the incubator? Is it ok to just pick them up out of the container and replace them into the incubator?

Thanks a bunch!

if you are using a standard hovabator, then you should use a container with the hachrite stuff in it, set that on the grid. The eggs go in the container on the hatchrite. When it comes to moving the eggs, just make sure that you do not rotate them. after being laid, rotating the eggs could kill the embryos. If you get them as they come out, you have a little window, but its best to not turn them from the way they are when you find them. Some people mark the top of the eggs to help them with this.

If there are bad eggs, try to seperate them from the good. It is easiest to seperate all the eggs, but it depends on how long it takes you to find them. If there is any chance that you would damage the eggs by seperating, just leave them as is, try to fit them in your container as best you can.

Hope this helps.
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"Life is Killing Me"

Never used hatchright - but with my hovabator, I do the same thing.

I completely fill the plastic liner valleys with water (and top of once a week) as water helps stabalize the ambient air temperature, and then use 2 6qt sterilite tubs sitting on top of the screen.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

"What should be my procedures and precautions for moving them into the incubator? Is it ok to just pick them up out of the container and replace them into the incubator?"

Yes. You can simply pick up the eggs (which will probably be stuck togather in a clump) and put them in the incubation medium. It is best to keep the eggs in the same postion that they were in when laid (don't turn them if you can help it).

Tim

Third Eye

I do it like this and get 100% hatch rate providing the eggs are fertile.And of course the lids are off the containers for the photo.

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"Upon Thy Belly Thou Shalt Go"

Just a quick question. When you use a pencil to mark on them, how carefull do you have to be? I didn't because I didn't want to puncture mine but at the same time I know I need to do it.
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

You don't need to do it.
If you want to handle the eggs, IE to candle them, then sure - but I see no reason to candle one unless you think it is bad - IE it looks really ugly.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

That was the first clutch I ever marked the top sides on.They were from a black rat that was moving all about the laying box and shuffling eggs in the process so I marked the tops as I was taking them out.
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"Upon Thy Belly Thou Shalt Go"

When I started breeding a couple years ago, I remember thinking it was going to be a big deal setting the eggs up properly to incubate them. I had read many books and posts, and it all sounded like if you didn't do it just right, the eggs wouldn't hatch.

I was told by a venomous keeper friend, which is all I kept at the time, to just mix water and vermiculite 50-50 or slightly less. Put 2"-2 1/2" of the mix in a shoe box, and bury the eggs halfway in the mix. Put a pin hole in the lid and set it on a shelf in my hotroom where the temps stay around 80-86 degrees.

I first bred Eastern Brown Snakes, and the eggs all hatched. The next year I bred Eastern Browns and Spectacled Cobras. The next year I bred Spectacleds, Black & Whites, and Yellow Sumatran Spitters, and they all hatched.

This year, I bred B&W's, Yellow Sumatrans, 2 pairs of Apalachicola Kingsnakes, and 10 pairs of Corns, not including 3 double clutches from the Corns. I've already hatched out 2 clutches of Kings, the B&W Spitters, and 6 clutches of corns so far. I've only had a couple eggs not hatch out of 217, but they went bad long ago and dried up. They didn't mess up any of the good eggs.

This year, I substituted deli cups for the shoe boxes. I bought the 6 3/4" dia. x 3" high clear deli cups without holes in the sides. I heated a very small sewing needle and put 5 tiny pin holes in the lids. Bugs can't get in and it can breath well enough.

So, I've never used an incubator, and it's been a pleasure not dealing with all the extra stuff I read about. I just set them on a shelf in my snake room. I got way more males last year when I incubated at 85-86 degrees, so this year I incubated at 81-83 degrees, and I have a hatch rate of 46.49 Corns and 16.18 Apalachicola Kingsnakes. I haven't sexed the B&W Spitters yet. They are just now shedding.

RC

Most if not all snakes have sex determined by chromosone, temp of incubation does not impact it.

Temp of the male (or perhaps the female after copulation) may or may not result in sperm of a certain chromosone being less prevalent, but I don't believe that has ever been demonstrated.

Statistically - years when there are unusual ratios are to be expected.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Funky,
I'm not trying to be rude, but do you have absolute proof that temps don't influence sex of snakes? You said, "Most if not all". I've heard people say it doesn't, but I've talked to many people that believe it does because of their own experience.

I kept my snake room(s) at 85-86 degrees all the time. Everything I had, cobras and Oz venomous (Taipans, E. Browns, King Browns, Papuan Blacksnakes, and Death Adders were from hot areas, so I kept them at higher temps.

In 2003, 2004, 2005 I bred some snakes and got the following ratios 12.5, 17.5, 11.4. and 5.1. Right after moving to Florida in Sept. 2005, I started keeping my snakes rooms at 80-83 degrees, usually closer to 81.

So all my snakes are now living at a lower temp. After cooling them, I warmed them up to 81-83 and started pairing them up after they ate and shed. They bred at lower temps than before and the eggs formed in the females at lower temps. I got eggs and incubated them on a shelf at 81-83 degrees, never going above 83.

Most of my clutches this year have been a lot closer to even or female heavy. 5.2, 12.10, 14.12, 7.9, 3.11, 5.5, 5.7, 11.11, so far. I have 6 more clutches waiting to hatch between now and late July, and a clutch of B&W Spitters that just shed, that I'm fixin to sex.

A buddy that produces aver 600 eggs a year, has been getting a higher ratio of females since incubating at cooler temps the last two years.

I have to think there may be something to it.

RC

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By contrast, several turtles, some lizards and all snakes are
subject to genetic sex determination (GSD), in which
adult sex is chromosomally determined at the time of
fertilization. At least two species of turtles and some
lizards have male heterogamety (XY males and XX
females), whereas other turtles, other lizards and all
snakes have female heterogamety (ZZ males and ZW
females). Other turtles are chromosomally monomorphic,
and additional experiments are needed to determine if
they have GSD or TSD. The ZW chromosomes of snakes
reveal increased differentiation as one progresses from
the phylogenetically primitive boids to the more
advanced viperids (Figure 2a; see also Glossary). The
origin of heteromorphic XY sex chromosomes in two
species of turtles is thought to have occurred indepen-
dently, and these same chromosomes appear as auto-
somes in other species of turtles with TSD
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From cluster3.biosci.utexas.edu/faculty/lizard/public/Modi_Crews.pdf

Page 2 - right hand column.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Hi guys,

I'm new to the forum and i'm not a snake breeder as yet, i'm just setting up for next years season, but i am a zoologist and can tell you that for definate, genetic sex determination in reptiles is very much the exception rather than the rule.

Funky - you're absolutely right, in some species chromosomal attributes of the zygote determine the sex, but as RC has observed from his experience, on the whole its all about incubation temps.

RC it would seem that the ambient changes you described cover the boundary between the determination of the sexes, which makes you lucky that you've been able to see this first hand. I've only ever seen this in sea turtles (Chelonia mydas and Caretta caretta) as they're the only species where i've worked with breeding populations. We found that some beaches turn out higher male ratios and others turn out higher female ratios depending on the colour and hence ambient temperature of the sand.

Sorry to stick my nose in but i just wanted to point out that to a certain extent you're both right!

take care,

Cat

TSD is very common in lizards, turtles/tortoises, crocodilians, and the Tuatara.

Snakes however - I don't know of a single case where there is documented TSD. It seems the serpentine suborder of squamata is exclusively GSD.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

I tried clicking on the link. The page came up but was blank, except where the title is in the upper left of the box. It says it's a Lizard study doesn't it. I see where you quoted that all snakes are GSD. Is there a study about snakes where they say it, or only in this lizard study?

How then do they explain eggs incubated at 85-86 degrees hatching out with very high male ratios, for several years in a row, then the exact same pairs are bred, eggs incubated at 81-82 degrees and even or higher female ratios are the result? Are my experiences and everyone else's that has had this happen, all coincidences? I find that kinda hard to believe.

Either way, I will continue to keep my snakes at the lower temps, and to incubate eggs at the same lower temps as I did this year. I'm not completely convinced temps during breeding, and while the eggs are forming in the female, let alone incubation temps, have absolutely nothing to do with it. If I get high male ratios next year, using the same temps as this year, then I can say that this years even rations were a freak of nature, and not the extremely high male ratios up until this year.

Anyway, Funky, thanks for the info

RC

By contrast, several turtles, some lizards and all snakes are
subject to genetic sex determination (GSD), in which
adult sex is chromosomally determined at the time of
fertilization. At least two species of turtles and some
lizards have male heterogamety (XY males and XX
females), whereas other turtles, other lizards and all
snakes have female heterogamety (ZZ males and ZW
females). Other turtles are chromosomally monomorphic,
and additional experiments are needed to determine if
they have GSD or TSD. The ZW chromosomes of snakes
reveal increased differentiation as one progresses from
the phylogenetically primitive boids to the more
advanced viperids (Figure 2a; see also Glossary). The
origin of heteromorphic XY sex chromosomes in two
species of turtles is thought to have occurred indepen-
dently, and these same chromosomes appear as auto-
somes in other species of turtles with TSD

I personally have produced a much higher ratio of females over the past 3 years by incubating at a lower temp. I have had this discussion with others in the past ( some have agreed with me and some disagree), and those that disagree, I ask then to show me positive proof / studies to prove that sex is NOT determine by temperature. Some have sent me links to studies on lizards. As far as I am concerned this does qualify as proof for snakes.

The next few seasons I will be keeping better records as to what temps and what sex ratios I get. This will most certainly provide proof of what I get when the eggs are incubated at a lower temp.

I don't if its been proven true or not ,but I haven't seen any proof as of yet that TSD absolutely can not happen in snakes.
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Thanks
Jim
Home Grown Herps

CORRECTION

Some have sent me links to studies on lizards. As far as I am concerned this does *NOT* qualify as proof for snakes.
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**********
Thanks
Jim
Home Grown Herps

The link is a PDF file.
Your browser should be able to handle it - mine does, and I use Linux (webmasters never consider Linux - if it works in Linux, it works just about everywhere).

The "lizard" in the link is symply a directory in the file tree where the PDF is stored. The title of the paper is :

Sex chromosomes and sex determination in reptiles

Here is the journal information it was published in:

Current Opinion in Genetics & Development 2005, 15:660–665
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)