Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I could not support an organization that supports the complete elimination of commercial harvest. Some members on this forum support that. I would form a national organization with state chapters. Membership fees could be divided as follows: 25% to the national agenda and 75% to the state chapter's agenda. This way the states with the most active memberships would have the most capital and the states with low membership numbers would still have the national agenda. We need to employ lobbyists and create an agenda. This organization could be open to professionals and private people who understand what true conservation is and who support captive propagation and all its facets.

This organization should support the following:

The right to captively propagate any species of legally acquired herp and commerce in these species.

The right to harvest founder, displaced, locale specifics and common species within reason. The right to commerce in wild caught animals with bag limits in place to control for over collecting.

The right to collect specimens by road crusing, field collecting and trapping.

No possesion limit on captive animals as long as the animals are maintained properly.

I could only support an organization like this. We need to also realize that there are other herpers besides alterna nuts. We have to consider their needs. We should try and accommodate all the stakeholders.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

You know I know this is a forum and everyones opinion is given wieght, but you got to crawl before you walk, this is a big diverse group of people out there with new and differing ideas, in order to have some or any affect some of us are may have to sleep with people we may not completely agree on every point but are strong on various points that make a difference.

I have written a paper on captive propigation and that indeed is an excellent way of keeping the gene pool line robust for the next hundred years, but people don't understand it nor do they see this as a viable option. It too can produce a money stream which some of you guys are looking for, so yea there are a host of differing approaches, but instead of arguing what your for against someone else that their for, find some common goals and go after those things.

Gentlemen I may be ignorant but we need a voice, a strong voice that means bringing in a whole bunch of unrelated people together, Chondo guys, lizard guys like me, photo people, and what ever else is out there. Certianly this is not to lofty of a goal.

Let use our heads and put something together that is indeed meanigful..........
-----
www.phrynosoma.org

______

signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I am not quite sure if your post is pro or con my post. Maybe both!

The deal is that most of these alterna boys who already have their target species on the "White List" will fade away as soon as we ALL help get road hunting reinstated.

We are also running out of time on getting this ridiculous "White List" changed or amended before all the turtle people have to liquidate the collections they have spent a lifetime building. You can bet the alterna nuts would be raising holy hell about the "White List" if alterna were not on it. And the same goes for lep freaks and so on.

The bottom line is that we need an umbrella organization that protects ALL herpers rights and privilages. As you can see from the response to my post nobody gives a rats ass about turtle people or people who provide herps (by selling them) to people for cancer research, anti-venom and new captive husbandry projects.

They only care about themselves and their favorite species. I, too, care about myself but I also care that EVERYONE'S rights and privilages are being taken away....the big picture. I support every stakeholder but banners, PETA types and over collectors. It seems that many "hobbyists" are against any commercialization what so ever of wild caught animals and this is just plain ignorant.

We need to band together and fight as a group but this never, ever works because everyone is so picky, including myself. My approach accommodates reason, fairness, logic and reality which is why no one (accept those who have given up) will come on board. Well, that is not entirely true. I know a couple of turtle breeders who are steaming mad and ready to fight.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

MIke thanks for your response, and because of my ignorance with all the issues I may have misread your post, but let me say, that what you said is what I am sayig, wether your a turtle man, alterna amn, or studying the reticulate Collared LIzard here in South Texas, we all should have a vision of oneness or see ourselves as a whole and I don't see this working unless we all do come together, so it looks like we are saying the same thing.

Again, IO have said I want to be involved in the HB12 but I am also open to other issues. I am admittedly new to the forum here and trying to stay informed as I go, I think I have a good sense fo putting things together and understand the needed dynamiocs for that. I will continue to monitpor and when the lead (POssibly Try) makes a move I will try and get involved with the organizational part of this as well as any support I can muster. Thanks for insight Mike.....
-----
www.phrynosoma.org

______

signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Sometimes “Big Pictures” need to be cropped

>>The bottom line is that we need an umbrella organization that protects ALL herpers rights and privilages.
If ALL herpers include commercial collectors for the pet and Asian food trade, then NO. We DON’T need to protect their rights. They are a large source of the negative press that rubs off on all of us. I’m interested in protecting herps and folks that enjoy them (for something other than food) and care about herp conservation (not “sustainable harvest”).

>>As you can see from the response to my post nobody gives a rats ass about turtle people
Are you referring to turtle breeders or turtle harvesters? I support folks who are breeding herps and those that are collecting in order to breed them. But, I give much less than a “rat’s ass” about anyone “harvesting” turtles (or other herps) for sale to anyone other than breeders. I’d personally support a ban on commercial sale of herps to anyone other than breeders. In other words, I’d prefer NO retail sales of ANY wild caught herps. The pet trade can be supplied by breeders. This would reduce the collection pressure on wild animals and create more incentive for breeders (I'm not a breeder but support them 100%).

>>or people who provide herps (by selling them) to people for cancer research, anti-venom and new captive husbandry projects.
Cancer researchers would be better off with captive bred animals. I’m not interested in providing them with wild animals for experimentation. Anti-venom projects should be granted special collecting permits that could be assigned to collectors. New captive husbandry projects can be supplied by private capture (no commercial collector needed) or the exception I mentioned earlier that would allow sale for the express purpose of breeding. WC animals should NEVER be sold to the general public, pet stores, or the food trade.

>>They only care about themselves and their favorite species. I, too, care about myself but I also care that EVERYONE'S rights and privilages are being taken away....the big picture.
Actually, all I care about is the herps. Some herping activities promote conservation and reduce demand on wild animals. Some “herping” activities just promote the interests of the “herpers”. I’d be willing to give up my herping activities and ban all types of herping IF I thought doing so was in the interest of the herps and their habitat.

>>We need to band together and fight as a group but this never, ever works because everyone is so picky, including myself.
I’d suggest that we need to be selective about who we get into bed with in this and any other fight.

I am glad we see it the same way. Most of what you say I said. They can send all the turtles they want to for food from ranched animals. Having a private breeding and research acquisition collector's license is fine with me. Many, many species are not bred in captivity so requiring captive born is unrealistic. Most of what you say is what I say. I don't have time to argue each point with you but some of your suggestions are perfect world. You can't legislate morality. It is easier to ban over-collection than it is to get as knit-picky as you would want. The problem is that it is easier to ban stuff than it is to stop over-collection.

What all of you are missing is that I am for conservation (wise use). If some breeder guy wants a pair of ground snakes but it is not feasiable for him to come down or he is not into field collecting then I can get them for him but I need to be paid. I need to support my family. On the other hand I don't go out and collect every herp I see and then sell them to Glades. You HAVE to make the distinction. For many common species even if this was happening you just can't catch (by field collecting and road cruising not bucket trapping) enough to impact the species. It is physically impossible. This is the realistic part of what I am saying

Many of you are missing the dynamics about what I am talking about. You want what you want. Lance, Troy and company don't want to sell any wild caught animals and I can't support that. They don't want to do that. That is their business but I do and I want to do it responsibly and realistically. There is a difference. Until you boys come on board with "wise use" I can't support your group.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I'm just not comfortable viewing wild herps (or any native, wild animal) as a commodity.

Sacrificing a few as captive breeders, educational display, or scientific study is good because they serve a legitimate purpose that benefits their wild counterparts (or humanity in the case of medical research if CB aren’t available).

Sacrificing a few as the personal pets of their captors (or close friends as gifts) is acceptable because the keepers will enjoy a much deeper appreciation for the herp and habitat than they would a CB herp produced by a stranger.

Sacrificing ANY for mere profit as a commodity (even if renewable) makes me (and many in the general public) terribly uncomfortable.

My personal opinion is that the pet trade should be restricted to CB animals or WC invasive species such as all the wild pythons, basilisk and iggys in Florida or the Med Geckos that seem to be everywhere.

I agree with you on your views. Consider this, people like trees too but they are killed and harvested. Oil and minerals are harvested from the ground and liquidated. Herps are captured alive and kept alive as a safety net for wild populations. I am not so sure about this general public perception you are referring to. I can see SOME of the "bunny huggers" feeling that way but most people hate snakes and want them dead.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

"Sacrificing ANY for mere profit as a commodity (even if renewable) makes me (and many in the general public) terribly uncomfortable."

Parks and wildlife does it on an almost daily basis, as do many people across the state and nation, its called game animals. Wildlife is sold daily in this state for the purpose of hunting. It aint right.
-----
South Texas Herps