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I could see at birth that this F2 litter brings an obvious colors improvement, the post shed pics are just a confirmation.
Knowing that they will not darken with age and will just get better, I can't wayt to see them in one year.

Pictures don't do them justice.

I think to peaches when I see some like this one.

Color is very pink! Great looking boas!!!

Andy
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Looks more like one than yours imho.

they sure look nice , look forward to some pics as they grow

you explain why you think those are T Pos. animals? They definately have a certain look to them with the tail patterns and the awesome colors they all have, but I don't get what makes them T Pos. I missed the whole disscusion a few weeks ago. What classifies a T Pos. animal? Thanks and congrats on producing such a beautiful litter!
Michael Burton

start it again, to long !
so here are links;
Some reading about albinisme:

http://albinism.med.umn.edu/facts.htm#whatis

Reptiles have something humans don't have that add colors, not mention in that article, chromatophores with eythrophore, xanthophore, ... some readings can help to understand colors.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1321097,1321097&key=2007

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1323576,1323576&key=2007

After reading that you should have a better understanding of albinisme and T.

This is something you wrote earlier.

"Where do we find the most concentration of black on a boa ? Around the tail and the most on the side . In the blond albinos, even adults don’t have black on the sides around the blotches."

In the pictures of the babies it looks like they have black scales. I see how it does fade from a greyish lavander to black. But with the black scales and normal looking eyes, I don't see how you can call them T Pos. Albinos.
Michael Burton

I don't want to be rude but I am impressed in 10 mn you have been able to read all the links I gave you, understood and synthetised the whole thing !
To answer your question, you would have understood that T plus don't need to have red eyes (red retina) and if it was the case it is not easy to get on a pic. What about the red eyes reduction on cameras ? Do we have a red retina ? Or is that just an optic effect ?
Do the T plus nic have red eyes ?
How can you say that this one is T plus ?
http://www.vpi.com/galleries/images/283

the red eye effect in pictures is actually from blood vessels and the fact that your pupils are dialated at night. the red eye reduction creates two flashes, one to make the pupils smaller and one for the picture. albinos usually have red eyes because the lack of melanin allows the blood vessels to show. so, if a snake actually has red eyes then the camera will not reduce the red. and i believe the picture you posted may be one of vpi's pink panther HET for t . the other pictures in the gallery show obvious VPI t .

either way i believe t is just a name until someone can actually map out all the genetics to prove it. to my understanding all animals, excluding t- albinos, will show positive for tyrosinase including pastels, hypos and all so a test for tyrosinase won't really be effective unless it's to test something like the sharp strain whose phenotype is very distinct.

i think you have some beautiful snakes, however i believe the only thing about your line that resembles a VPI t is some gray scales (which may cause people to question why you call them t albinos). VPI t are very light and resemble albinos when born, but still have noticeable melanin, which makes sense why they would call it t .

maybe it's a darker form of t albino, who knows. it's hard to force your opinions on people unless you can prove that it is in fact a t albino and looks how a t albino name would imply. but personally when i think of t albino i imagine something like this (taken from the VPI website)

all people see are the looks of the snake. no matter how much you argue about genetics, it all comes down to the looks. i can take a hypo and tell the world it's missing a 19th chromosome, but unless i can prove that it looks completely different than any other hypo, it will always just be a hypo.

i'm not hear to step on anyone's toes, but i can understand both your point-of-views.

i think they are some killer snakes either way.

-eddie

The pic you are showing as an exemple is absolutly not representative of the T strain you are refering to !
I have recorded on my computer all the pics I couls get from that strain for the last 6 years, young and adults. Those pics are not my property so I am allowed to post them ! I couls send you them !
How does the first breeding T pair looks like ? Highly dark pepered that appear black on the pics ? You can't see any red eyes on the pics, exept on one ?
F1 T blonde albinos are also mostly higly pepered, they all don't get darker with age, black is replaced with brown and "lavender", get a special light yellow caramel color specific to T plus and have a pink translicide tongue.
They are proved to be a simple recessive mutation.
If you think that they are not T plus, none can be called so, the proper tests have not been done,anyway even a dopa test would don't give the answer.
Check the pic Ruben has been posting down on this thread.and what he thinks about red eyes !

it actually is a good representative of the strain since all the baby pics i have seen of the VPI line do look similar to that, maybe without that much color though. I do realize that they grow darker as they age, but as babies they are very distinct in that they do look like a type of albino.

here is one that jeremy stone produced (picture taken from his website)

im not here to choose sides or discredit your line. it doesn't affect me in any way whether it is a t positive or not. maybe your blondes look completely different in person. but it is hard to see any t positive resemblance or characteristics through the pictures you posted. maybe if you posted some comparison pictures to normals, then people will be able to see what you are talking about. it's all about how the snake looks in the end, not the color of the tongue or the chromosomes it contains.

when Clay produced the prodigy boas, he posted many pictures of the prodigy alongside the normal siblings and no one disputed the claims that it is a t positive boa because they had a very distinct look when compared to their siblings.

like i mentioned before, i am not here to attack you or take sides. but it would be nice to see some more pictures of that line alongside other snakes for comparison.

I will not say about prodigy, They look T plus but different from the VPI .They are just born and allready proved and accepted without any breeding !! Do they have red eyes ? I don't think so.
I will not be able to post siblings! As said before, It's a f2 T blonde albinos x T blonde albinos, so 100 % of blondes albinos. As in any litter of common, albinos, salmon, ... some are just more collorfull than others but share the same phenotype.
send me a private message and I will send you more pics that will show you representative pics of the VPI strain collected over years from different sources, very different from the one you have posted.

ill say it one more time. i'm not here to disprove your line. i never said they need red eyes. i never said yours were not t pos.

the prodigy boa was accepted based on its appearance compared to their siblings. there was a huge difference between them and their siblings.

the only thing i was saying was that i understand where michael is coming from and from the pictures you posted of the babies, they kind of look like nice pastels. all i was saying is you should post some comparison pictures to normals (i didnt say they had to be siblings) just to highlight the differences, but you are very defensive without providing pictures.

i dont see why you're trying so hard to put down the VPI line. No matter what pictures you try to show me, you can still tell which one is actually a VPI t pos or not. yes they may get darker as they age, but the way they look as babies and even adults is far from normal. thats why its obvious that the pink panther you posted as a t pos was actually just a het. when you see a litter of them, the difference between the t pos and normals are like night and day.

this is going to be my last post on this topic because i came here to comment on a couple of your statements on red eyes and the VPI line and to michael, not argue. just post some pictures, pictures make the world happy and will get your point across a lot better than words. i have seen some other pictures of your line and i do agree some of the pictures resemble that of other accepted t pos strains, but other people may need more evidence and background. maybe the phenotype is just not as drastic.

just because people do not believe they are not t pos does not make them any less beautiful. at the same time just because people believe they are t pos doesnt make them more special than they are. the look will always stay the same. the only thing it changes is marketability.

anyways i like them. take care.

Your not being rude at all, I appreciate you helping me understand. It just seems to me that if you call those T Pos. Albinos, there must be many T Pos. Albino lines that aren't labelled correctly. I have seen pictures of VPI carmels with "different" looking eyes. Maybe it doesn't show up in that picture. Do you have any pictures of your line with an eye that doesn't look normal? Do you have any pictures of those babies with the normal littermates? I will get reading...
Michael Burton

All the T blond albinos have pink tranlucide tongue, black is replaced by lavender brown (it is even more obvious on adults), they don't darkened with age and devellope a special light yellow caramel color with age. They are proved to be simple recessive.
Wich other strain combined these 5 ?

Here are some other thing you said.
"Where do we find the most concentration of black on a boa ? Around the tail and the most on the side . In the blond albinos, even adults don’t have black on the sides around the blotches.
Here is one of my pair, the darker and less collorfull one. Breeding pic at 4 years, not the pair that produce my previous litter. Grey lavender, no black, just like they were as babies exept for the yellow, blonde, caramel color that they devellope with age, like the other stain..
Here is a new born, 2 days old, no black, grey and lavender on the tail, it will not have more when adult and it will not get darker. "

I'm sorry but those scales are black in those pictures you posted. They look like pretty good pictures and the look like really amazing boas, but I think the word "Albino" is misleading. I realize through looking at albinism in humans you have come to the conclution that T Pos. albinos can have normal eyes. But putting that aside, those babies you just produced have black scales. They look like really awesome pink pastel boas. I don't think I'm the only one who thinks those are not T Pos. Albinos. Would John Berry's updated book on morphs classify those as T Pos. because you said they were? Doesn't it matter what you call a snake? I'm not trying put down your project because they are truely stunning animals I just want a little more proof.

Here are some other statements

" In conclusion, if you did not felt asleep, these are some of the reasons that lead us to say that the “blonde albinos” are T positive. Not to mention, that like for the VPI, they produce abberancies, widow pics, a special pattern, and it also appear that, I produce in my litter some clean and collorfull one that remind me the so called “pink panther “. "
-I don't think the fact that they resemble the VIP lines pattern, sometimes, should have any bareing on whether they are T Pos. or not.

"Our strain has not been refined yet . I just did a F2 homozygote breeding. We are just scratching the potential of the T positive blonde albinos,, with red pastels, they will have no black, will keep their colors and will not devellope dark pigment with age ! They will clean up blood lines without adding colors like the salmons do......."
-Pastels do this very well.

"Remember how you see them, on pics, through a more less adjusted sreen, having them in hands makes the difference !"
-I hope someday I do see them in person, the Magma's too!!

Can you post more pics of the translucent pink tounges again, I can't find them.
Michael Burton

Concerning the pastel, it's more selective breeding, they are polygenic, you can get pastels in a random way in any litter, not so predictable, don't have lavender, don't have pink tongues and none are recessive.

That is NOT a t , it is a boa that we call "pink panther"
this is a dominant trait. It also happens that it is 100% heterozygous for VPI caramel albino, which I just found out when I bred her to a caramel albino and she produced, normals and pink panthers 100% het for VPI caramel albino and caramel albinos.

I think the boas you have shown are very nice. There is no need to compare them to any other boa they are nice on their own. It is very difficult to photo these animals and they really need to be shown so people can see what the variation is. In any case these boas should be looked at as coming from particular lineages, what the specific genotype is at this juncture is unknown. Each snake is on a case by case basis and even compatibility is a little dicey since the great example of the breeding of a sharp albino x boa woman hypo!

Yes, you know that they are very difficult to photographie !
Concerning the compatibility between sharp and carmel, the answer could be, that they are both T plus.
Could you post some of your adults T caramel albinos ?

Those are some sweet looking boas there Al. Will any be making their way to Daytona this year. Will you be accompanying them as well? Bring some Magma's too!!!!!

Joe

I will not come but they should make their way to Daytrona with some magmas

Wow they are the pinkest T's Ive seen yet Congrats!

Greg

I'd be thrilled to produce something so pretty. But, at one time these would've been considered colorful Pastels.Their are some really nice Pastels out their like that super nice Summit Pastel litter 2 years ago that had little to no black on them, but they weren't considered any form of T pos Albino. I think the term is getting over-used for nice light Boas - genetic or not. They are screeeeaamers for certain though. Congrats on a great batch.
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I'm just the snake room janitor

I agree.

Larry Keller produces pastels that come closer to my idea of a T albino. Check out the one on the right dmexotics.com/images_2005/43.jpg

They are listed as nice normals. I think the name is more about the marketing

of pictures from this line of t plus without as much color and they do resemble what we know as the VPI line. They look more like my t plus(VPI). They do have purple tongues just like my t and almost the same body color. I think zenzs are so colorfful that it makes it harder to see in pictures. As far as the red eyes go, you can't see the red in mine's eye anymore sense he got bigger and Linda H. has even said hers eyes aren't red either but there's no doubt our are real t plus. So, I think it varies from line to line and litter to litter. The more refined and colorful the harder it is to tell from a picture what your looking at in my opinion.

Ruben Michel

Thanks for your objectivity !
I also have had pics and E-mail crrespondance back in 2003 with Linda H about T and red eyes.
Your are right more they have colors, more the lavender will appear darker, less colors they have lighter the brown/grey will be !