Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am about to make an order for froozen rodents. How long can you keep them froozen and it still be safe to your snake.

Ken

on how old they are when you receive them (how long did the person sending them keep them?), where you are keeping them (chest freezer, refrigerator freezer), how do you store them (vacuum packed, ziplock baggie). If you keep them in a vacuum sealed bag (not a ziplock, but one of those seal-a-meal type), in a chest freezer at no higher than 0 degree F, they can go as long as 6 months.
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

If they are vacuumed sealed they can go allot longer then 6 months, I would say if they are in a Freezer Ziplock bag around 6 months as long as you remove as much air as possible before you reseal. Allot of this however depends on the temp that you keep your freezer, for example we have a deep freezer around 9F that keeps a butchered and vacuumed sealed half a cow and the meat has lasted a year or so. This is also where I keep my frozen rodents in Freezer Zip lock bags and I would imagine they will last at least 6 months or that is my hope. I just started buying frozen rodents but the company I purchased them from says “Your package should keep for 12 months without issue” these in are Freezer Zip lock bags. Remember freezer burn is caused by the meats/rodents being exposed to air in the freezer, the less traffic in the freezer (opening and closing of freezer door) and how well the product was sealed will determine how long they will last.

meat will keep for years frozen...we have deer meat that is 3 years old (and not vacuum sealed) that is still good. It can get a little strong tasting at times, but it is still safe to eat. Personally, I think that as long as the snake is eating the food, I wouldn't worry about it. Remember, many snakes that hunt for food are also scavengers in the wild, and will eat something that has been laying around dead for a few days! I've actually known some people that had snakes that would NOT eat freshly killed or live food; they had to thaw out a mouse, let it sit around for a few hours, refreeze it, then thaw and use! I think I actually just finished up some frozen rats that I bought over a year ago online; they were not vacuum sealed and everything was fine.
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-David

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amery. corn snake (Morgan LaFay)
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
0.0.1 betta fish (Captain Morgan)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)

From experience, don't buy more than you think you will use in about 3 months, unless you have a good, well-sealed freezer that isn't opened alot, in which case you can stretch it out to maybe 6 months.

Some snakes will eat thawed no problem, but I have had enough snakes that were marginal feeders on thawed (like rosyboas), and I found that these snakes would turn their nose up on thawed rodents that had been in my freezer for more than a few months (regular old freezer, no fancy stuff). I took that as the limit, for my freezer anyway.

BTW, I've somewhat experimented with fresh vs thawed, and I've seen the snakes eat more and with more ferver on fresh, with far fewer regurges ever happening. My opinion now is that a diet solely based on thawed is not good over many years, and there are a few vets in my area here that have been saying that for years.
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Mark

I used to have the view that I would never feed my snakes anything but pre-killed rodents, however that view has changed for many reasons.

Costs are many times cheaper going frozen, and the size/weight of the rodents will be the same. In my area those two things alone make up a huge factor the price of a medium/large rat is $7-8 and they are not always available in the size I need or worse don’t have any in stock at all, the drive to each of these locations is 15-25 min one way. So not only was some of my snakes getting smaller prey items some where not getting anything at all because the pet stores didn’t have any rats.

With frozen rodents you will NOT have any worries about parasites that alone is a HUGE plus. You won’t have to pre-kill your rodents, just thaw and feed. I make extra sure the prey item is slightly above room temp.

Everyone has there own opinions but I can tell you meat will keep if you keep it cold enough and away from air. If you and I can eat meat that’s been frozen for many months even a year then its fine for your reptiles.

You don't have to tell me that frozen is more practical, cheaper, easier, and that the mice from the suppliers is of great quality. I agree to all of that.

Just saying, fresh has more nutritive value. If you can't feed fresh (neither can I by the way except on occasion), then maintaining a 3 month rotation of rodents in the freezer is a good idea, per some advice by a few vets. Do they know everything about reptiles? Probably not. Do they have more insight into it than I do? I'd say yes.

Ask a vet about it, then report back here. I could be wrong too. Nobody made me the oracle of knowledge. But ask around yourself.
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Mark

out of curiosity,
what is the reasoning, other than some snakes take fresh more readily than thawed, behind that idea that a diet only of thawed might not be good? I feed all of mine thawed; I buy in bulk so I've had some mice/rats for very long periods of time and never had any problems. I do have some snakes that are picky, for example: my hog island boa will NOT eat anything that is not washed off under hot water, then dried completely. My rainbow boa will only eat rats, nothing else. But the age of the food has not effected their eating, and I have seen no ill effects from feeding only thawed. I've never had one regurge either, but I know some people seem to have that problem a lot. Please don't take this the wrong way or as I'm saying you are wrong, I'm just trying to understand.
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-David

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amery. corn snake (Morgan LaFay)
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
0.0.1 betta fish (Captain Morgan)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)

Frozen food is the most convenient, the least expensive and most practical (for the keeper) way to maintain snakes. No objection. And the quality of the rodents from the big suppliers is very good.

But, and you would have to agree, fresh food has more nutritive value, and the value degrades the longer the food is frozen. Therefore, it is logical that supplementing frozen foods with fresh from time to time is not a bad idea.

Will it make a difference to a snake in captivity? Good question, and I don't know to what extent. But I can say this.. ever notice how WC adult snakes brought into captivity often way outlive snakes hatched in captivity? Certainly the diet early on played some role, and likely there are other factors, including individual variation.

It was a vet that originally told me about frozen food being fine if not kept too long in the freezer. But after a relatively short time (depends alot on the temp and bag seal of course) the vitamins degrade. He suggested occasional vitamin supplements for thawed food over a few months old, or occasional fresh foods.

Another vet's opinion was similar, only he went even lower. And why? Because the mice are whole and have all of their organs. Freeze a cow with all of its organs and see if the meat is great after a year.

And parasites? Better go lower than 32 deg F to kill alot of those.

Sure, you eat meat from the freezer. Do you eat it 100% of the time? I bet not. And the meat is probably on a bone but not connected to organs. You can't really compare what you do and what the snakes do. You have choices, but you give the snakes only one choice. What if you gave them choices? I mean, live vs frozen thawed? What would happen?

I had one guy vehemently argue the thawed thing. And when I asked if he ever tried fresh with his snakes (ball pythons), his argument changed. He doesn't try fresh because when he did in the past, some of his snakes didn't want thawed anymore. So the snakes were preferring one over the other.

So basically, I guess I'm saying for best nutritive value, keep the rodents frozen for under 3 months. And I could be wrong
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Mark

I see your logic but with that said this all seems like opinions and not facts, has there been any scientific testing done to show vitamins and such in meats/frozen rodents degrades over time when frozen or is that just opinion? And if so by how much, is it enough to even matter? We as humans don’t eat cows that have NOT been gutted frozen or otherwise, with that said does it affect the rodent in anyway leaving its guts intact then frozen and if so will it affect your reptile. I can tell you I used your logic in the past but now I am trying Frozen/Thawed because honestly the cost is too high and they don’t always have the rodents I need in stock, I would rather feed my snake then not. Will I still use pre-killed maybe every so often.. Interesting enough two of my snakes one is 15 years (Red Tailed Boa) the other is 7 years old(Cal. Kingsnake) both took Frozen/Thawed for the first time with no problems.

Ball pythons can be finicky eaters to begin with so I am not sure if I would have used them as an example. I have had snakes (WC)(black rat) that would only take dark colored mice, why? I doubt snakes know the nutrition value and don’t eat because of that, maybe they sense it’s not fresh? Or maybe they just were not hungry that day. I have seen Wild snakes (black rats) that ate a bird my cat killed but they ate it the next day, this was in my back yard and I watched him eat the entire thing. This would be extremely interesting if someone would do some of these tests scientifically. Is frozen rodents the same as a live pre killed rodent?

As for the parasites my freezer gets below 9F so I am sure it kills them, if it doesn’t when they shipped the rodents in dry ice which is -109F I am sure that will take care of them, granted they are not fully exposed to the dry ice but I am sure it gets well below 0F.

I am doing some testing on my own as well but if anyone has any scientific proof on this matter please post it here. And again you may be right I used your logic for 15 years so who knows..

Good discussion.

I do not have proof, just vet opinions. Neither do those people that disagree with those opinions. Mainly because reptile nutrition is still something that is not understood very well.

Heck, on that note, snakes are not understood all that well by their keepers. Take your Cal king for example. Do you know what temperatures they use in the wild? Do you know where they go when in a shed cycle? Or what temps they use when food is not readily available (they use cool temps, but how low?) Or what humidity range they spend the most time in? Or how much they eat in the wild if food is abundant (just because a caresheet says once a week does not make that schedule realistic, other than it generally works in captivity.) Are females only gravid in Spring? (there is evidence otherwise.) I don't know most of those answers either. Remember some time ago when all the books written by the reptile experts of the time described male "combat dances" with rattlesnakes? Now we know that that behavior occurs among female-female, female-male and male-male combos just the same. Actually, some people knew that in the 70s but couldn't say much about it..

Coming off my tangent now lol..

I know, I know, I'm long-winded and way off the subject. Reptiles are cool. We all agree on that.
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Mark

Hi
Just a thought but wouldn’t the husbandry and diet of either fresh or frozen mice have a more relevant influence on their nutrient content?
Choppy

>>Hi
>>Just a thought but wouldn’t the husbandry and diet of either fresh or frozen mice have a more relevant influence on their nutrient content?
>>Choppy

Of course that has relevance, but when you say more relevant, that is difficult to answer. I still stand by the original idea - fresh food has more nutritive content than frozen food that has been in a 32 deg F freezer for months, assuming that both groups have had a reasonably good diet.
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Mark