Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've heard alot about them, and only seen a few that either died in the egg og a few hours later. Has any one ever gotten some to survive, or does anybody know why they die?

What about the rest of the babies from a Jag x jag litter? Do they do fine, or do they also have some problems surviving?
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Best regards

Mark

http://www.heterodon.dk/

NO...and NO...

Nobody has been able to produce a living lucy, from what I understand the siblings that are Jags, are fine, and live...but not one Lucy lives...

There are many Theories as to why they don't survive...It would be cool to see a living one, but I really doubt there ever will be one...but its a great thing to dream about..lol

You would think by now there would be one if there could be one, as Jags have been bred to just about everything, Bredl's, Diamondx's, Jungles, Irian Jayas...You would think with that much genetic diversity there would be one if it was an outcrossing issue...Some people think its because the jags are Homozygous Leathal, meaning the super version for some reason carries genes that don't allow it to survive...or something like that...lol

All I know is, if someday the Lucy is produced and it survives, you can expect the Jags prices to go threw the roof...as that will be the Hottest thing EVER!!! Even more Hotter than the Albino Carpets that will make thier way here in a short time...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I strongly disagree. The diversity of the Jags is still in its infancy really. Live Leucies will be hatched someday with outcrossing as really few folks have outcrossed and bred those in sexual pairs to try. Most folks do not breed pairs of Jags together yet becasue the primary goal is to make more Jags and diversify before makign a real attempt at making living leucies. I don't think I'm going to try until I have 75% IJ Jags to breed to 75% Bredls Jags. That's my personal formula I will be attempting in an effort to make live luecies.

Dave, are you working with Jags? On other forums I get the drift that you don't and perhaps you don't even like them. So that's why I was surprised to see you post such seemingly definitive words about the possibilities of these Jaguar Leucies surviving.
The Leucy possibility has never been used by me or anyone I know to promote sales of Jags as they sell themselves just fine with their own beauty. So I have no alterior need to speak the opposite words that you do. I have just found over the years that many people making such devout hardline comments like that usually end up eating their own words. And I mean no offense Dave but I cetainly hope I or another Jag keeper can help you take that first bite lol!

SO many people have been proven wrong with every year that goes by when saying certain crosses could never be done and certain traits were "suicide" genes, whether in Balls, Boas, or Carpets.

Anyone remember the flux of Boas with the one eyed albinos and snows? That whole deal made breeders take a step back and diversify by outcrossing and presto, few to no Boas with one eye these days. And the prices on them went back up a bit and held too! Good thing for the Boa guys!

I look at all of this as fun but at the same time honesty about this is a must. Certainly, living Leucies have not be produced. But to say they can't be is jumping the gun.

If I could leave this thread with one last comment, it is not to take anyone one person's word as fact (even mine!) and never think that Mother Nature has rules.

-Yasser
Spitfire Reptiles

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As a Matter of Fact...I don't even own a Jag...Probably never will, but if you reread my post, I don't once try and make it sound Like I know anything about jags....I just stated facts...

Fact ONE.... Nobody has produced a Living Lucy...

Fact TWO....All JagxJag Breedings the normal Jags seem to be fine...am I wrong here?????

Fact Three... Not sure if this is fact, but another Jag Breeder mentioned that Jags have been around for 13 years, thats a pretty long time for not one Living Lucy to be produced...Here or in Europe...or anywhere for that matter...So if Jags have been around so long....sure does seem not that many people are interested in the Lucy then??? Cause I would be trying and trying and trying...

I mentioned...That SOME PEOPLES THEORIES...are that they carry a Homozygous Leathal Gene...NOT MY WORDS...just what I have seen discussed on other forums...Didn't say it was my theory...

The last thing I mentioned was the price of Jags...SO you disagree... that if a living Lucy is produced that the Jag prices will sky rocket???? Its been proven that with a CoDom trait when the super form is produced, the price of the "Visible Hets" Usually goes up...and lastly the Albino Carpets are eventually going to make thier way here....its only a matter of time...

So basically...the only thing that was my opinion was the statement that I don't think one will ever be produced...And if it is fact that Jags have been around for 13 years...and Not one has been produced...Thats a pretty long time to wait for a super version....You would have thought by now there would be one that lived...

So Where in my post other than my own personal opinion did I go wrong here Yasser?????

Your entitled to your opinion...But I don't feel what I said was "devout hardline comments" What other than my own personal opinion on one being produced was Hardline?? I could care less..if one is produced...Good for you or whoever does produce one...I REALLY DON'T CARE!!! lol

I was mearly responding and trying to give facts...And if my facts where wrong...please correct me...What did I say that was incorrect...Those are the facts up till now...Things change all the time...but up till now...that is what I have seen and heard...

YOU produce Jags...So enlighten us...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

When you state the Genetic Diversity of Jags is still in its infacny....How can that be??

Does Genetic Diversity mean that jags first have to be pred to totally different subspecies before a living Lucy is produced???

Cause in the example of the one eyed Albino Boas, it wasn't breeding the Albinos to say...A Surinam or Guyana Red Tail, BCIxBCC...

Jags have been outcrossed to many Coastals, wouldn't you think the many JagxCoastal breedings would be enough to be genetically diverse??? its not like all the Jags have only been breed to thier Siblings??? The Albino Boas where bred back to other Colombian boas, thats it..and it didn't take that long to genetically diversify the line of Albino...Plus your talking about a Heterozygous trait vs. a Co-DOM trait...its like compairing apples with oranges...Inbreeding is needed to produce more albinos at first...where the Jags can be bred to anything and produce more..you would think they would be pretty genetically diverse now...they have been around long enough...that a livinig lucy should have been produced...

Just my thought...But since your the Jag Breeder Enlighten US...Please..
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I responded to these comments in my previous post. But you seem to be growing hostile and I don't want that.
So unless you wish to tone it down a bit as I had hoped for before, I will respectfully bow out of this as I do not wish to argue, I wish to discuss. Anger gets in the way of communication and I don't want to go down that road.

-Yasser
SPITFIRE REPTILES

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I appologize if my wording came across as hostile, I am trying to understand your logic....You gave an example of the one eyed Albino BCI, and I am trying to understand why crossing a Jag to say a Bredl's is more geneticly diverse than say breeding a Jag to an unrelated Coastal, as Jagx Coastals have been done for quite some time...You would think that the Genetic Diversity for producing a living lucy..living as in living past a week..would have already been done....but from what I am understand is that your saying you think a living lucy needs even more genetic diversity...as in your example of a 75% Bredl's Jag and a 75% Irian Jaya Jag...I am trying to understand why that would produce a living lucy but an outcrossed Coastal Jag to an unrelated Coastal Jag would be diverse enough to produce one...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I am currently busy with chores and sauch but I just stopped back in to read. For lack of time, I think I could best sum up your query in two words. Hybrid vigor. It's all it may take for these Leucies to give them more strength/ability/lung surfactant maybe? to get them to live full healthy lives. And once a Live Leucy is produced, they can be even easily more outcrossed and made even stronger. I have seen personally what selective breeding of multiple generations can do both for the looks of an animal and the health of the animal and I think this approach may fit the bill in my opinion. Live Leucies are my eventual goal, sort of a bonus. It's the road there that is actually more exciting to me...someday 88% Bredls Jags, 88% WP Jags, 88% Diamond Jags, selectively bred pure Coastal Jags, designer carpets in general and their hybrids....mmmmm hmmmmm! Those are what blow my skirt up as you are probably well aware.

Hopefully more later if I get the chance.
And in reference to your other post, there is no hostility here. Not a drop. If you are cool then, we're cool. Let's just discuss.

-Yasser
SPITFIRE REPTILES

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Fear leads to Anger
Anger leads to Hate
Hate leads to the......Darkside(insert Dr. Evil's winching pinky grin)

Dave,

Regarding 'genetic diversity,' to this day I still am not aware of ANYONE who has tried breeding two Jags together that were not either clutchmates, or offspring from the very same parents. Without exception, ALL Jag x Jag breedings have utilized animals that were directly related to one another. This includes Tatsu's recent clutch in Japan. I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong about this, but I'm not aware of any exceptions. We really need to breed Jags that have quite a bit more distance in their lineage, and maybe then we will see some positive results with the leucies.
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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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I firmly agree Will.
Folks tend to think that these are all from already diverse bloodlines but really, selective Jag to Jag breeding of any sort has yet to even begin anywhere,let alone in the USA.

-Yasser
SR

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Curious why is that? Im assuming both of you have adult females that arent directly (clutchmates) related to breeder size males. If all jag X jag breedings have been with siblings then I can see your optimism. I cant for the life of me understand why no one has bred jags together that at least come from different females?
Is there a reason people have avoided doing this? Both of you know alot more about jags than I do, so do you know why this has yet to be attempted? It seems to me the first time I saw the super form, I would be trying to breed an unrelated pair as soon as possible.
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Chris
www.headhunterreptiles.com

Actually I don't have adult females aside from a couple of IJ Jag girls. And one of them is related directly by the same father to both of the both of my adult boy Jags. The boys are pure Coastal so I haven't felt inclined to produce 25% IJ Jags just to try to get Leucies. The one adult female Coastal Jag I have was only just breedable last season and I elected to try for Tiger Jags instead and ended up with infertiles. Maybe that was the snake gods telling me I should have tried for leucies then but I doubt I would have had good leucy results. I bet if we took a tally of all adult Jags breeding today, folks would be shocked at how much lack of gentic diversity there is in their Jags today,let alone the lack of staright up pairs that could be done with some kind of genetic betterment ie less Coastal blood or tremendous Coastal Jag outcrossing. It all takes time! I just think folks have thought Jags have been in the US for longer than they really have and bred alot more than they really have been.

-Yasser
SPITFIRE REPTILES

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Chris,

Most of the Jags that are now of breeding age, especially females, were purchased back when very few people had them available for sale. There was not a lot of variety at that time, and many people acquired their Jags in pairs from the same breeder (since you are more likely to get a better deal that way). It was only later on that everyone learned that Jags could produce leucies. Once word was out about the leucies, the race was on. Almost everyone who had a breedable pair of Jags thought it would be worth a shot to put them together in order to be the first to hatch a live leucistic, even if the adults were directly descended from the same parents. And that's apparently the way it has been ever since. I'm quite surprised that nobody has worked out a breeding loan by now in order to pair up more distantly related females?
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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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In my last sentence I meant to say, "pair up more distantly related Jags."

Gotta love typos.
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Will Leary
Reptilicus Reptiles
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Gotcha

Like you said it seems weird that no one has at least thrown a IJ jag male in with a coastal jag female. I understand the excitement in bumping up the % of IJ or jungle in the jag to see what affect it has, but at the same time I would be trying to borrow a female coastal jag to see if the distance in relationship would help the super form.

I guess it just never dawned on me that no one had ever done it. Well maybe next year!

thanks
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Chris
www.headhunterreptiles.com

Ryan,
You are on the right track but it is of my opinion that it would be best to either outcorss many times over with other lines of Coastals before breeding a pair of Jags or go the route of making the Jag trait represent as diverse blood as possible like 75% Bredls Jags crossed to 75% IJ jags. They are essentially crossing the genetics of animals separated by alot of divergent evolution so when you bring them back together with the Jag trait introduced, it is what I feel would be our bet bet to produce live leucies. Until I get anywhere near 75% anything Jags, I really am not worried about getting Leucies. Like I said before, the chance at them someday is just a bonus. The road there is where the fun is for me. The color ride Jags take me on are good enough for me!

-Yasser
SPITFIRE REPTILES

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Maybe those "Tribrids" are the viable way to the elusive leucy? There are alot of people that are going to be kicking themselves for not picking them up when they were only a couple thousand!

Will,

I've been trying since '03 for a lucy. This year I bred an '05 double co-dom zebra-jaguar male to an '04 50% jungle jaguar female. The zebra-jaguar male came from breeding an '03 zebra to an '02 Henric jaguar female, the 50% jungle jaguar female came from breeding a '94 Lazik jungle to an '00 Jan Eric Engel jaguar.

I agree that all the jaguar genes can be traced back to Jan but this will always be the case. I have done a lot of outcrossing within spilota without seeing a live lucy, I don't know how far out we have to go to get one but I believe it must be possible.

Cheers,
Paul.

As a Matter of Fact...I don't even own a Jag...Probably never will, but if you reread my post, I don't once try and make it sound Like I know anything about jags....I just stated facts...

Well, then do you really think you should be the one to "state the facts"? It makes me question your motives as I know you are not one to agree with hybridization.

Fact ONE.... Nobody has produced a Living Lucy...

Actually they do live sometimes, just not very long...a couple have lived as long as a week.

Fact TWO....All JagxJag Breedings the normal Jags seem to be fine...am I wrong here?????

I said nothing in my previous post in to refute this...don't know where you are going there.

Fact Three... Not sure if this is fact, but another Jag Breeder mentioned that Jags have been around for 13 years, thats a pretty long time for not one Living Lucy to be produced...Here or in Europe...or anywhere for that matter...So if Jags have been around so long....sure does seem not that many people are interested in the Lucy then??? Cause I would be trying and trying and trying...

Well, in the 13 years Jags have existed, the first several years involved animals bred to the first Jag in Jan Eric's governmentally closed collection so his gene pool was minimal to non-existent. We are still mostly only 3-4 generations from the original animal. Not to mention, it wasn't until perhaps 5 years ago that folks began crossing them out to other carpet forms...so the real chance I feel that lies in the hybrid Jags to produce viable Leucies has not been tried (like the aforementioned 75% IJ Jag X 75% Bredls Jag).

I mentioned...That SOME PEOPLES THEORIES...are that they carry a Homozygous Leathal Gene...NOT MY WORDS...just what I have seen discussed on other forums...Didn't say it was my theory...

But why represent only that theory? Why not mention the other, not so positive and positive theories? Let's be honest here. Tell all sides, not just one.

The last thing I mentioned was the price of Jags...SO you disagree... that if a living Lucy is produced that the Jag prices will sky rocket???? Its been proven that with a CoDom trait when the super form is produced, the price of the "Visible Hets" Usually goes up...and lastly the Albino Carpets are eventually going to make thier way here....its only a matter of time...

I have no clue where you got that idea from. I never touched on that concept at all.

So basically...the only thing that was my opinion was the statement that I don't think one will ever be produced...And if it is fact that Jags have been around for 13 years...and Not one has been produced...Thats a pretty long time to wait for a super version....You would have thought by now there would be one that lived...
So Where in my post other than my own personal opinion did I go wrong here Yasser???
Your entitled to your opinion...But I don't feel what I said was "devout hardline comments" What other than my own personal opinion on one being produced was Hardline??

When you pick a side and argue for it with your opinions interjected, you are being hardline. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I also want folks to be aware that it is just that...your opinion about Jags....not what is fact because we still don't know enough to have facts in my opinion.

I could care less..if one is produced...Good for you or whoever does produce one...I REALLY DON'T CARE!!! lol

Then why are you the first to make a response to this inquiry? Seems like you care or at least have interest. I know you have interest considering they are carpets are you like me, have an interest in carpets.

I was mearly responding and trying to give facts...And if my facts where wrong...please correct me...What did I say that was incorrect...Those are the facts up till now...Things change all the time...but up till now...that is what I have seen and heard...

You gave facts without a timeline. And you followed up with your hardline opinion.

YOU produce Jags...So enlighten us...

I think I already did with a basic timeline of why little has been figured out regarding the leucies. Jags started out with several years breeding within a VERY limited gene pool. And 13 years is a drop in the bucket in time when you look at the # of generations that can be produced in that time. If they bred at two years with regularity (which carpet folks know that is a true rarity with 3-4 years being more of the norm) they would still only be 6 generations departed from the original single male produced in Norway. In reality, we are looking at perhaps only 4 generations in most cases.

-Yasser
SPITFIRE REPTILES

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This forum doesn't get much traffic, My intentions weither you belive them or not, was to just respond to the original posters question...I felt like I tried to answer them correctly...And I agree, I did interject my opinion along with facts, I was in no way trying to say Jags are bad...or that Hybrids are bad. I figured many times people will post a response on here, and if they don't get an answer in a few days time they move on, so I have been posting on here more often. Trying to at least respond to peoples posts, just out of courtesy...thats all...I was in no way trying to say I know it all....why Because I don't...

My response to "Enlighten us" is just that...You breed jags I don't...so I asked for you to do what you just did, enlighten us...You get so defensive so quickly...I am not NICK..lol, My ONLY intention was to provide iniformation to the original poster...IF that came across as me pushing my personal opinion...well..

As the popularity of Jags grows, you should check this forum out out more often, if you feel non jag keepers like me are somehow pushing our propaganda on interested parties...lol, Not the case here though...

To the Original Poster...I am very sorry, The opinions, and Facts presented by an actaul Jag Breeder should be listened to, as I don't own a jag, never bred a Jag...So my Facts might not be correct...And I will refrain from Posting to Jag related Topics...As I clearly don't know what I am talking about...and don't want to come across as pushing my views onto anyone else..
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Well as far as the Lucy's go, you might find it interesting (if you are really interested in the subject) to look into the Lethal gene in other animals,, such as horses IE Lethal White.. And just another thought , in other animals the answers to problems like we have with Lucy's has often been
found through inbreeding not out-crossing.

I have no doubt that there will be a viable Luci it could be next week or 5 years from now but the carpets will have a Luci...Randy
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2300.3900 GTPs
1965.2319 ETBs
1232.1432 ABETBs
231.521 ATBs
403.663 SITBs
128.91 WITBs
4325.4774 JCPs
431.291 BCPs
74.156 DCP X JCP
41.63 DCPs
0,1 BCI

You must be some kind of noobie Randy....just one boa?
roflmao
I got a huge kick out of your signature.
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Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

And that's after getting rid of the majority of my animals lol I get a kick out of everyone who list their animals in their signature, you should have seen the one I had with Ants ETC in it.. I still think I have it in my sig on SSSnakes .com.. Randy

>>You must be some kind of noobie Randy....just one boa?
>>roflmao
>>I got a huge kick out of your signature.
>>-----
>>Ben Team
>>Mark Davis
>>New Paradigm Herpetoculture
>>Captive Bred Morelia
>>404-438-2135
>>chondro776@yahoo.com
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2300.3900 GTPs
1965.2319 ETBs
1232.1432 ABETBs
231.521 ATBs
403.663 SITBs
128.91 WITBs
4325.4774 JCPs
431.291 BCPs
74.156 DCP X JCP
41.63 DCPs
0,1 BCI

Thanks for all the answers

Looks like Morelia Reptor.com has hatched a live one?

http://74.220.207.106/~moreliap/forums/showthread.php?t=15381
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Best regards

Mark

http://www.heterodon.dk/