Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This just hatched, its parents are ghosts, the clutch was tiny, 5 eggs another one in the egg looks just like this one, 3 have not pipped. I don't think this is a ghost, obviously it has to be hypo and anery, but the father was also bred to a snow and I got all anerys, so I did not think there was an amel gene there. Can someone please tell me what this is, I do not do alot of cornsnakes, this is kind of my sons project. Thanks. Craig Kade

thats a tough call according to the info given. First thing I thought when I looked at the pic was snow. Maybe the clutch that was bred to a snow did not have the odds in your favor. How big was the clutch?
In a ghost (het for amel-he'd have to be to get a snow out of him this time), snow breeding....
you should have gotten 50% anery, 50% snow (all het hypo). But if the clutch was only like 5 eggs, it is very easy that you could have had bad luck and had all anery.

I am interested to see what others have to say
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"Life is Killing Me"

The clutch was 18 eggs, so I am preety sure the ghost is not het albino, the baby is much more pink then a snow usually is when it is born, I can't wait to see the other babies, I will take some pics when they are all out. The ghost is also the only adult male in my collection so there is no chance of a different father. Craig

It looks like it has red eyes, is that correct?

yes, it does have red eyes.

>>yes, it does have red eyes.

That is definitely a snow.
Most of mine come out very pink.
Not to mention I just had the same thing happen.
I bred two ghosts together, one known to be het amel.
Well, it seems the mother was also het amel. Ive got snow noses pipping.
You breed two ghosts (anery hypo) het amel together and you can get ghosts, ghosts het amel and hypo snows (amel anery hypo)
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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Any guesses on how I bred that male to a snow and got 0 snows, and now all these look snow? They are not out yet, but I did slit the eggs. BTW I could not have confused the clutches, my whole corn collection consists of 1.3 adults, ghost pair, anery,and snow females. Could my odds just be that weird, or is there more then one form of amel, and maybe the ghosts were hets?? Also anyone have pics of baby ghosts? Thanks again to everyone for the help. Craig

>>Any guesses on how I bred that male to a snow and got 0 snows, and now all these look snow? They are not out yet, but I did slit the eggs. BTW I could not have confused the clutches, my whole corn collection consists of 1.3 adults, ghost pair, anery,and snow females. Could my odds just be that weird, or is there more then one form of amel, and maybe the ghosts were hets?? Also anyone have pics of baby ghosts? Thanks again to everyone for the help. Craig

I didn't say you bred anything to a snow
I said both ghosts parents were het amel
ghost het amel to ghost het amel equal ghosts, ghosts het amel and snows.
actually hypo snows (anery, amel, hypo)
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I did breed him to a snow, and got all anerys, that is what I was saying. I understand to get a snow the ghosts would have to be het amel, just wondering how I did not get any snows from the ghost to snow litter, and now I am getting all snows(or snow like animals) when I breed the two ghosts, thanks for the help. Craig

>>I did breed him to a snow, and got all anerys, that is what I was saying. I understand to get a snow the ghosts would have to be het amel, just wondering how I did not get any snows from the ghost to snow litter, and now I am getting all snows(or snow like animals) when I breed the two ghosts, thanks for the help. Craig

ok I got it now..
with a snow to a ghost het amel you SHOULD get some amels.
Sometimes the odds just don't play out but no amels at all suggests the ghost isn't het amel....Then that ghost to another ghost producing snows says it has to be het amel.
And now you're getting all snows?
Not snows and ghosts?
man talk about going against the odds
I'm at a loss
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I am pretty sure the others are snows, they are still in the eggs though, I am sure they will be out by morning. I would have to say the odds of no amels out of the first clutch(I think 18 babies) and all out of the second(only 5 eggs) has to be tens of thousands to 1. That is why I was wondering if there was another amel that may be in play, but sounds like there is not or someone would have suggested that. Thanks again for the help. Craig

As Jimmy said, both of your ghosts are het amel. When you bred the ghost to your snow, you just missed the odds by not getting red eyed progeny. As he said, you really got pooped on (genetically speaking), but since you got all aneries, at least your snow is not het or homo hypo.

In the ghost to ghost pairing, you're not supposed to get any amels. Both being anery hypos het amel, you only get snows and ghosts. Of course, the snows are also hypo. If it turns out that you did not get any dark-eyed corns, you certainly have defied the odds. 1/4 of the brood should have been snow and 3/4 ghosts. As many of us are sometimes painfully aware, punnet squares only indicate what you statistically should get. As it did in this case, it can slant to ridiculous ratios.

Re: pink: While some coral snows may not be homozygous for hypo, mine are. I find that when I breed aneries het for amel together, the snows do not mature to be remarkably pink. When I breed two ghosts together that are het for amel, most of the babies are atypical snows; with heavy pink coloration.

Congrats,

Don Soderberg
South Mountain Reptiles
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

I guess I will call it amazing odds then, I can't belive the odds, but I guess there is no other explanation. I will let everyone know what the other babies are for sure, and yes I do realize these are only $15 babies no matter what, I am just amazed by the odds I guess. Thanks. Craig Kade

Out of 18 babies - if the father is het amel you really defied the odds. If the male is het amel, that pairing would be het amel X homo amel, correct?

Is it possible that female retained sperm from a pairing before you obtained her, and that your male isn't the father of that clutch?

Sperm retention is not unheard of.

1 in 2^18 is very low odds indeed.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Like you, I keep searching for an alternate explanation when I get the "crappy" odds you did. I say "crappy" cuz the only thing worse than getting unexpected results is the rationalization of why. A geneticist would tell you that the only certainty in these instances is the mathematics of genetics. Me, I rack my brain to come up with a solution that either points to my irrational 'man-made' oversight regarding heritage OR the exciting potential of a new gene. When the proportional results of most clutches are so aligned with the Mendelian probabilities, it's tough to believe that they could be so lopsided sometimes. If we can defy the odds with such ridiculous ratios like yours, why can't we win the lottery.

Have fun with your new toys.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

can we get a better up close picture of the eyes?
i had some red eyed ghosts hatch last year that looked just like snows until they shed but after looking at the eyes closer you could tell they were not snows they had red centers with a darker outer ring. but if they are solid red or 2 shades of red then its definetly a snow
adam
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hybrid breeders association
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.3 ghost corns
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 childrens python
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 albino banded cal king
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo

Was the ghost x snow breeding this season as well or from a previous season?

Just asking in case the clutch labels might have gotten messed up/switched and the snows are from ghost x ghost and the anery looking from ghost x ghost(but abnormally dark offspring) or ghost x anery.

If all the mathcings and offspring are as you say and accurate then I have no idea other then Murphy playing with the odds hard core.

Sean.

I wish that switched labels could be poss. but I watched them both lay the eggs and since they were the same size females could not believe that the ghost only had 5 large eggs, while the snow had so many, another funny thing, I think the babies from the smaller eggs are as big or bigger then the larger egg babies.

I took them to sell at a show and without a doubt they are ghosts, cool ghosts, but ghosts. Thanks for all the help. Craig Kade