Reptile & Amphibian Forums

With Justin’s monitors!

24h later, this morning they fed in a frenzy 2-3 crickets at a time, then perched for a siesta, I opened the door to change water, only the male opened his eyes turned and flicked my hand before going back to sleep as if nothing was going on. This is not your typical nil behaviour, nil’s are reputed to be wary, nervous, flighty and defensive, these are as calm as any cbb monitor species. Regardless of how cheep they are, or how many species iv kept, these are most enjoyable, I was not expecting that from this specie.
Justin you’re a very lucky keeper, and so am I.

I was hoping you would simply post an enjoyable moment. You see(and I know you do) keeping monitors is suppose to be about enjoying them.

As you also know, these forums do not often include the reason we keep these wonderful creatures, you know, for the enjoyment. Not only for the moments, but for decades of enjoyment.

I am very disheartened by the continued abundance of sad posts. Ones with severe problems, or ones with even a lack of basic understanding of monitor needs.

All the fighting is because of all the problems. If there were few problems, there would be few fights. Whos going to fight over enjoyable moments or enjoyable pics???????

I know who, your friend is an example, the Jeep fella. I posted two enjoyable moments and he caused an uproar. I did not add any comments to the pics, just fun pics. And folks think I am the problem. Sorry folks, I am the problem, I have millions of enjoyable moments with my monitors. Its these enjoyable moments that lead to me being successful. I have fun, the monitors have fun, the only ones not having fun are many folks on this and other forums. They argue, fight, have problems, talk about other keepers(in a negative way) but forget the main thing, to have fun, to experience enjoyment. How sad, how very sad.

I know problems are not to be totally avoided, but there should be a high percentage of enjoyable posts, with a small percentage of sad, problem, non enjoyable posts. Cheers, whoops bummer

ps. the look on the females face IS ENJOYABLE.

Last night I was tending to my rudi's, changing water, picking up poo, ya know, all the fun stuff. haha
My male is usually flighty and goes to the top if I open the door. Not last night, he did stay out of my reach but walked around on top of the litter watching he.
Maybe he wanted to know if the white paper towels were edible.
Who knows?
The female sat on her perch under the basking platform watching me.
Once the fun of cleaning was done and water was replaced, I came back with food.
The male eagerly ate, nothing unusual there other than he was still down on the litter. I did drop a mouse off the tongs and he jumped and caught it before it hit the ground.
That was cool to see.
The female came down, I thought to join him in the buffet.
She would not take a mouse off the tongs, she tongue flicked it then turned her head and began to climb me like I was a tree.
She climbed up and sat on my shoulder, tongue flicking my cheek.
That tickled.
While she sat there I offered another mouse, with my fingers and she gently reached and took it.
I stood there with her on my shoulder, the male looking up at us.
I leaned against the wall and she climbed off my shoulder, up the lattice to the basking site.
The male soon climbed up to join her, but when he arrived, she would not let him.
I guess we know who's in charge here. hahaha
Why was this enjoyable?
It was because this was something they have never done before.
It was new and quite interesting for them to interact with me like this.
They keep me guessing, now that is fun.
It would have been funner if my daughter didn't take my camera and I could have taken some pictures.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

A couple of things, try offering her fuzzies instead of mice. Just see what happens. Particularly when she shows interest in a mouse but does not eat it.

Also, you do not need to explain why its joyful to you. Whats important is that it is.

From my own point of view, I do not think about why they do what they do TO US. As we are not part of their natural inherent behavior. Or at least thats the last thing I think about. Some like/tolerate, get over us, some not so much. That is individual levels of tolerance. Also, its how we treat them. But it does not matter in the scheme of what or how they perform their natural behaviors. Consider, all their behaviors are natural, They cannot invent new ones(so we are taught and so far, very true) But they can and do, alter exsisting behaviors and use them out of their original context.

For instance, they, varanids, use other animals to lead them to food. Is that what they are doing to us? Are they treating us like another animal or another monitor. If its another monitor, its out of context to their natural behavior. OR, an altered behavior. See what I mean.

My first goal is to allow a normal chain of events that leads to successful and repeated reproduction(recruitment) I do this because that is the goal of all their behaviors, to exsist. To stay in exsistance, they must recruit, so its the base target of a chain of behaviors.

Once that is normal, then I try to test for other behaviors, such as social ability, Group behaviors, etc. To me, this is the enjoyment, it really doesn't matter if I/they succeed or not, the fun is working towards a goal.

Don't go crazy, but this is why I defended DWS from time to time. She and her monitors were indeed working towards a goal. Whether I agreed with her goals is not the question. Actually it was her methods that were of question, and her motive. On her site, it said, home of dog tame monitors. To me, that is out of context. She should have said, home of the most friendly Savs that share their lifes with me. Savs are not dogs and dogs are not all that trustworthy, just count the dead kids. I would have been more tolerant of her methods, if only she was not trying to turn them into dogs. Heck, there are already plenty of dogs. Cheers

Cheers

So basically, if I get this right, your overall goal with monitor keeping (if you want your animal to be as comfortable as possible) is to allow 'recruitment'?

Once you have that established, it takes alot of the load off an animals 'mind'- something like a person who has a 9-5 for 20 years and then retires in wealth; in that what they had been striving for and worrying over is now easily within grasp and/or has been fully accomplished. This isnt so much how they actually feel, as much as a comparison to how we view them at that point.

Once they have established some semblance of a "normal" state, at least in their terms, by taking place in behaviors that they would under normal circumstances achieve, you can have at least SOME chance of witnessing 'natural' behavior, by which I mean behavior that hasnt been/hasnt been fully altered due to the conditions of captivity.

Either way, chances are nearly 100% that their behavior is altered by their captive state, or even out of 'natural'/original context (such as treating another human like a monitor), but your best chance of viewing behaviors that are as unaltered as possible comes, as one would guess, by providing them with as close to unaltered conditions as possible (ie, good enclosure, good husbandry, has a mate available, etc).

Basically saying, making successful/repeated breeding events your primary goal is a good way to do things; because it gives you a goal which encompasses many of the animals 'natural' goals as well as giving you a better chance to witness natural events.

This is just my attempt to grasp what youre trying to say.

Personally, I just like watching em... When they trust you to the point of acting without fear or concern of you (like what the original post was about) or express interest in interaction with you, thats a great moment in and of itself. Its a real shame that these animals are treated like the proverbial goldfish, while dogs and cats are viewed as 'family members' by society at large.

In my humble opinion anyway.

One a side note:

New enclosure is getting built Monday!

10' x 5' x 6' wood enclosure.

2, 2x2x4 stock tubs, custom light box, maybe even a refilling water "feature" (pvc pond thing)... depends on what the guy has time for and what its gonna cost me.

Not to jack the post, but YAY!

Congradulations!

I am not sure what your saying. Recruitment is the goal and target of all natural behaviors. To exsist. Without recruitment, there is no longterm exsistance.

I have said many times, most likely before you came here, the if you kept a dog or cat, or horse or any "normal" animal, in such conditions that it could not physically reproduce, you would be arrested for animal cruelty. Please do not read this, picture it, see it in your mind. A dog thats physical condition is such that it cannot have pups. Now picture this, 99% or more, of all varanids are kept that way.

Now entertain the thought, if an animal cannot physically do the most simple of lifes events, to reproduce, how can anyone think they have that animal in good conditions? The truth is, any conditions that forcibly does not allow the most basic of lifes events has to be considered poor.

In otherwords, reproduction HAS to be considered the minimum achievement of husbandry, anything less is failure.

Of course, from that point, there are many levels of success, large clutches over small clutches, healthy strong neonates over weak neonates. Multiclutching over single clutching. Large clutches over small clutches. Etc.

ALso once the basic life event is achieved(consistant recruitment), other key natural behaviors can be expressed.

Like nesting, monitors appear to be like birds, They are obligate nesters, hahahahahahahahahaha So far, science has tried to make varanids obligate, this or that, only in most cases the monitors were/are, not obligated to do that thing. But they are obligated to make a species/local specific nest. Again, like birds. If a bird cannot make a nest, it will not successfully reproduce. I am talking about wild birds. Heck, that still may be true with domesticated birds.

Then to form a social structure, I know science says they don't. Well to bad for science. As they do, because once you achieve healthy strong monitors, that reproduce. The dominate behaviors they exhibit are social. To be social is to INCLUDE other members of your own species to accomplish a task or tasks, for the benefit of the individual. Simply put, to hang out in groups for the protection of the individual. The individual has a better chance to survive doing something or somethings, in numbers. Monitors not only hunt in packs(dang are they good at that and they do not have to be taught)

They also reproduce in groups and nest in groups, I have to wonder where they learned how to do that if they DON'T in nature.

To form a group, an individual INCLUDES others, but that also means, an individual EXCLUDES others. Some groups of animals number in the thousands, other groups in much smaller numbers.

Lets take English sparrows, they hang out in flocks, yet, there are lots of different flocks, they breed in pairs within the flock. These flocks increase and decrease depending of support. And there are solitary sparrows that do not belong to a flock. That is an excellent example of how monitors flock/pack/are social. Of course some species have dense flocks/colonies/groups/packs, others less dense. LIKE MANY OTHER SOCIAL ANIMALS.

At this time, science wants to make it a all or nothing event, monitors are social or not. All the same and the same as other animals. First, all types of animals are social to a different degree, so your going to have to pick one and use it for an example.

Also, its well know that social behavior varies even in a single species of animal. So why do reptiles have to be different? Take V.tristis, they occur in a huge varity of habitats. From the semi tropical top end, to east coast scrub forest, the the arid sandy deserts south of ayers rock, to the rocky deserts of the west coast, to the fern forests of the northwest cape(kimberlys) To living in towns that manmade. How on earth could this species have the same behaviors over the entire range?????

So what I am saying, you first have to provide conditions that allow the basics. That in reality should at least be the physial ability to reproduce. Then you can see all the other wonderful adaptions these wonderful animals hold. And in most cases, they hold them hidden for us.

Sadly, most of you are happy if your monitor feeds and lives another day. Yes, that is sad.

The below is a comedy skit, do not read is picturing the F word bothers you.

One of the things that slay me is, today I gave my X(funny name) a treat, a treat, a F'in treat! come on now, A TREAT would be giving it a life, hahahahahahahahahahaha The thing is so F'ed up, it cannot make a baby, F. (the F's are from this new york comic my partner/best friend, keeps exposing me to.) F F give it a life, whats the matter with you? (then the comic shakes his head and makes these noises)

So many F'in people have F'in dogtame monitors, yet the F'in thing is F'in obese, it F'in cannot reproduce, H it F'in cannot even F'n walk muchless F'in run. F'in tame, H its F'in halfdead, F.

See this behavior(in the pic), see this, thats what they F'in do. They F'in hide and ambush things that go by, the crush the F out of them. F

Frank its unfair as we both have enjoyable moments every day, heck sometime twice a day (my blue head are hatching now)
If it wasn’t for the fun in having fun, I would not keep animals, if it wasn’t for the occasional fights I would not post hear, iv been on a gardening forum 4 years now and have not seen a fight yet, so this forum is a breath of fresh air. I love the spirited folks on hear, and sometime I share or read something interesting about varanids.

Pleas lets not make this a boring forum with too many enjoyable moments, peoples are way to easy to love when they are friendly, no challenge!

Later
Rgds

Ps. Love your laceys

Hey Jobi,
What is a blue head(Agama?)? Nice pic...
Fun moments are great especially when accompanied by a pic or two... Arguments are important and productive also- watch "My Cousin Vinny"...HAHAHA! I do wish more of the readers/keepers here would post though. There are alot more monitor keepers reading here than show themselves- it was great to hear from herpsltd(Tom Crutchfield) and there are others with much experience sitting silently as well... Best to you all- Mike

You know what I agree with you about Tom, iv known this man more then 25 years, I followed many his advise and mostly his misshape, but have never spoken to him, I think he’s one of the grate herper’s and have nothing but respect for him, it was hilarious to see my friend Justin signing his full name as to say look Tom C. I have a name too, I guess he didn’t know who he was playing with. Young guns! Got to love them.

Its true many folks don’t post, the reason is simple, you need corrector to post hear, this forum has a reputation of being hard to new owners.

This is partly true, as we don’t path keepers on the shoulders to easy, we are first and foremost devoted to animals not keepers, so our replies are strait forward to the point, this doesn’t mean we don’t like the keepers it simply means we care for the monitors.

(Laudakia atricollis) one of the most suited captive lizard, perfect size, easy to care for in every way, don’t know why but some expert said to me they are hard to keep alive and impossible to hatch?
I think they are as easy and interesting as bearded dragons.

Hear one from the wild

Wow! That is a colorful agama! Thanks for sharing... We just dug up 12 rankins eggs the day before yesterday- Oh, by the way, I have observed a behavior in my group of 4 croc monitors, one is biting another smaller animal to run it off, I guess... I'm not too worried about it because I have watched my savs do the same thing- maybe over territory sometimes and maybe other reasons too at different times? It is very exciting to watch with the savs as it does not seem to cause damage but with the crocs there are punctures and some bright red blood beads- Made me lose sleep the first time it happened but I know now that it is healed up by the next day...Best to you- Mike

Mike biting is not a good thing with crocs, they should not bite each other as captives, keep an eye on them.

Blue heads are pretty much the same size as rankins, try them you will love!

This sport is an addiction for sure, we always seek that first rush!
These are my first blue heads, and like every first I am in heaven.

Also adding to franks reply, many peoples reading my posts think I am a new keeper because they show passion, the same passion you get from catching your first frog, snake, turtle, almost 30 years have pass sins my first catch, and I am sill in love with these creatures, to me it don’t matter if its an anolis or a nil monitor, I am in constant amazement over them, and it shows when I post, maybe not when I reply to a dumb post but in general it shows.

What I really meant to say was, look at Bert’s forum, it was well alive once, sadly it is dead now, that’s what you get when you try to change the nature of things.

All in all we have it all, I am thankful no dough.

Hey, it's been awhile since I've been active here. Been checking in of course here and there. Busy with things around the house and the animals.
Just saw your post. Do you have some tame niles available??
Please let me know!
Thanks,
Mike

Sorry Mike I don’t have, and nothing good is left from the nice shipment in MTL