Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wondering if anyone knew of any zoos that had Blue tree monitors in it's collection?

I have an exhibit projects where we ahve to show a perfect exhibit (private or public) and a poor exhibit (private or public).

if there are no zoos that keep these jewels. could any of you keepers post pictures and allow me to use them as examples in my project.

thanks,
Ashley
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"I’m scared of those nasty big-eyed grey aliens, too. I think it’s that I don’t understand their motivations. I am confident of my ability to out-think, out-con, or if need be, tire-iron-upside-the-head demonic forces, ghosts and goblins, things that go bump in the night, etc. It’s the notion of something that doesn’t have any desire to talk to me except via anal probe that freaks me out"

n/p

As this seems like a project to learn from, let me offer this.

First as a old zoo exhibit builder(up to owning my own company) and longterm captive breeder of varanids and many other reptiles, I see a PROBLEM.

Its a very common misconception of how you judge a public or private exhibit. Or a simple cage, for that matter.

In most cases, folks often think of a naturalistic cage as good or better. But that can and is far from the truth/reality. In order for a naturalistic cage to be of value. It must include what that animals actually uses in its natural enviornment. Which is missing in most cases.

A base example is, shelter. Monitors in nature first and foremost seek a shelter. They do so for protection from predators and protection from extremes. They also use a shelter to control their bodily functions(monitors are ectotherms) So a shelter must provide those conditions necessary to that individual on a timely basis. In reality, natural monitors are IN their shelters the vast majority of their lives. Not a good exhibit. I can see it now, the interpitive says, This is the shelter of a bluetree monitor, They come out less then 5% of the total time they are alive. Of course you could a viewing window into the shelter(done that at many zoos)

In public exhibits, this means the animal will not be visable for long periods of time. Consider, the word exhibit means, to bring out in plain view. Which is not what zoos want to happen. So most zoos(the vast majority) do not provide conditions to allow that. So now, a good exhibit for the animal, is a poor exhibit for the exhibitor(zoo or other such place) or visa versa.

Another example is, most naturalistic cages have very poor intent. Most people decorate the cage(naturalistically) in a way I call the "postcard" approach. This is when they use the cage as a postcard of the country the animal comes from. The problem here is, most folks do not have any idea what that country is really like and HAVE NO CLUE, as to the parts of the enviornment the inmate(monitor) actually uses in that enviornment. These cages are often a waterfall exhibit. Which is very very common in zoos. In fact, I often kidded zoo keepers as working at the waterfall zoo and being more of a plumber then a keeper.

In addition, I question how you judge an exhibit. I judge them by the results expressed from the caged monitor, not by how it looks or how well it resembles some thought, accurate or not, of the monitors natural enviornment.

A perfect exhibit/cage is one that allows generations of lifes normal natural events, for the ANIMAL it encloses. Not how it looks to a person. So yes, I debate the terms you use, perfect or poor. You going to have to tell me WHAT those terms mean.

I will offer this, When I first started at the Arizona Sonora Desert Museum. I worked on the Cat grottos. They may be one of the few "perfect" exhibits. As they offered viewing of the cats out in naturalistic cages, they also allowed viewing into their shelters, and this is a very important part, they allow visitors to enter a room that allowed them to SMELL these animals. You see, in the life of these animals, smell is more important then most of senses. In fact, if you ever go bush, you will smell these animals, but you will rarely see them. This has not been applied to monitors. They normally get a postcard cage. Cheers

hmmm if I were you I would take Frank's perspective and use that as your base exhibit criteria. It would be interesting to illustrate a good looking 'postcard exhibit' as the 'poor' exhibit and one that may not look so good but is functional for the animal as the 'good' one. I am sure most folks do not realize what they see at the zoo is most likely a terrible to mediocre environment for the animal.

Tom

You said, "may not look so good, but is more functional". I ask, look good to who. You(the keeper) or the monitor. Ifs its functional to the monitor, my contention is, thats what looks good to them.

As in nature, they move to areas that Look(work) good to them. I am not sure, but I get the feeling the many people(including SOME academics) do not understand that monitors, ONLY pick and live in certain parts of a habitat. That is normally considered the micro-habitat. A cage, your cage, an exhibit IS a micro-habitat, not a habitat or country, or Asian Forest, or desert. Your cage represents and functions like the area a monitor WOULD PICK IN ANY GIVIN HABITAT.

So a poor cage is one that functions as a fence. It merely encloses a monitor, without providing the tools for that monitor to LIVE.

A decent cage, is one that provides the basic essentials for a monitor to live. A good cage provides the ability to attain life events. A "perfect" cage, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I have no idea what that would be other then nature itself.

My hopes are, there should be more decent and good cages as there are not nearly enough, in zoos or otherwise. Cheers

A good keeper understands what looks good to the animal and the humans looking at the cage.

I have a story about this if your interested. Cheers

I am.

Hello Frank,
I am following this one as well, Frank... Would love to hear the story. Thanks- Mike

>>A good keeper understands what looks good to the animal and the humans looking at the cage.
>>
>> I have a story about this if your interested. Cheers

n/p
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

In the late seventies, I was hired to start the rebuild of Audobon park(zoo) in New Orleans. I worked for a company out of Califorina, Rock & Waterscape Inc.

I brought two fellas I hired and trained at the ASDM(Arizona Sonora Desert Museum).

The design firm was local to New Orleans and included two very nice caring designers. Which means, while they designed the exhibits, they let me change them. Sometimes thru a change order(at additional cost) and other times, on my own.

The first project was the carinvore exhibit. It was the first thing you saw when you entered the zoo. Several(all) of the exhibits were designed to have Flat high artificial rock walls to keep the Cats(main concern here) The lions, tigers and leopards, all have walls flat and strait up, 22 feet. That distance was decided as enough to hold the cats in. But if they could get one foothold(clawhold) you would need another 22 ft. This was told to me by the consulants at Zoo Plan. That was their responsibility, to keep the cats in.

One cage was the lion cage. Its design was awful. It was actually a concrete box. If you do not consider, the "looks" it was a concrete pit. 22 foot high concrete walls, flat dirt botton and no place to hide, no shade, no cover.

New Orleans can and does get hot and of course humid. In this case, it was reflective heat. The way the cage was situated, it would reflect the suns rays all day long. Ok, call it a hot box.

I argued to allow undercuts, crevices and other such uses of the rockwork. The architects did not want we to make changes, my own company did not either, as it meant more footage, over a flat wall. They bid on flat walls. I finally got the ok to make changes, as I said, some extra, some not.

Of course, I have to keep this to a minimum. So, whats a boy to do?????? With the lions, I made a huge undercut in front of the entry, exit doors to the holding areas. This allowed lots of shade and made it far easier to hide the doors.

Then much nearer the viewing bridge, I made an undercut with a big rock boulder, that appeared to break off an upper layer. This covered the undercut and provided a nice hiding area, and it still allowed some viewing from the public. Not much, but enough to see parts of the lions.

Now for the point, once the lions were in there, they really like those areas I put in for their use. Of course, you can see two or three lions majestically sitting in the grass under a large slab of rock. And they loved wedging themselves in that other hiding area too. What was funny, after the exhibit was finished, I would stand an listen to the people talk. What was funny, as they discussed the enclosure, they also pick the areas I added as what they liked best.

What was appealling to the Cats eye, was also appealling to the humans eye, How odd.

How about another story about the leopards, we REALLLLLLY change that cage design. Cheers

....but they tore most of that down though...for a 'performance' area with arena

....and the lions' exhibit is so grown up with shrubs, trees and grass now...but the walls on that thing are incredibly high (if you fell over the rail you would plumet about 25' into moat).

Too bad you weren't around to help them with their Komodo exhibit...

have a good one,
Daniel

Oh, no! Not another FR story.

LOL!

HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

just want to comment. I think it's important that we remeber that we're talking about an exhibit, not a private keepers cage. Seems like the thread kind of veered to the criteria of a private cage . Exhibits are usually in zoos or museums where people pay to see the animals. Not only are they there to see the animals but they're interested in seeing what their natural habitat looks like as well. I can't imagine an exhibit being very popular to paying customers if all their cages were full of retes boards and a lightbulb, regardless if they're breeding machines. The paying public who normally attend once a year doesn't care too much about recruiting unlees it's the rare pandas, or something big and cute.

So in my opinion the way an exhibit looks to people is equally important with its function. Otherwise it wouldn't survive financially because no one would pay to see it. So apperarance = very important.

just so happens I'm reading a very interesting book on this subject by H.heidiger(sp) called man and animal in the zoo. Got me think about this kind of thing.
cheers

This is part of the original post,
I have an exhibit projects where we ahve to show a perfect exhibit (private or public) and a poor exhibit (private or public).

if there are no zoos that keep these jewels. could any of you keepers post pictures and allow me to.

I wonder what he meant by, public or private, and in the last paragraph, he asked any of us to post pics.

Also, I often heard "stuff" like you said, using breeding as other then a sign of minimum husbandry. Many(you) want to make it about something else, like commerical or as a sign of a better person or some silly thing. Fortunately, its not about any of that. Its a direct sign of meeting minimum husbandry requirements. Period.

As such, any good exhibit, public or private, cannot be considered good, great, or as the poster asked, "perfect" without meeting the minimum life requirement, to recruit. If a cage cannot support normal natural biological functions, like nesting and reproduction, it HAS TO BE CONSIDERED, a poor cage.

No matter how good it looks. But, you can indeed include looks on a functioning cage. You can include mimicing its natural habitat. In my opinion, you start with a functioning cage for the animals, THEN you add the looks or naturalisitc interpitation.

So, in the context of rating enclosures, YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE, meeting basic husbandry(that allows the simplist of lifes events) before you can include it as a great or "perfect" enclosure.

That you want to omit the ability to reproduce, or use reproduction as something EXTRA, really reflects on you.

Consider, if they have a mouse enclosure that did not allow mice to breed(from lacking suitable conditions) would you call that a good enclosure????? Or a finch enclosure, where the finches could not physically lay eggs or build a nest, how good would you call that?

Let me clarify this a little, I breed mice, if I do not water them regularly or feed them regularly, or give them a halfway decent diet or keep them too cold or too hot, or too wet, They DO NOT reproduce, or at least very poorly. Or If I muck up their social structure, they not only do not reproduce properly, but eat their babies, and may kill eachother. In my opinion, these are the same exact things that hinder reproduction in monitors.

Just basic common support. Thats all. Its not about commerical, or ego, or anyother thing, its simple support. YOU the keeper either provide it, or not. End of story.

That you want to exclude it as a criteria for rating cages(enclosures) means to me, you do not understand that the ability to reproduce is a normal natural event that captive monitors should be able to do. Cheers

...this may be one of your more informative threads Frank. It kind of says it all if you listen. Consider the whole concept of monitor husbandry (or just plain husbandry) revolves around our ability to provide basic captive support.

I for one too often fall into the trap of setting up a cage for my benefit; with the proper support for the animal in question to achieve basic life events (to live...minimally) more of a checklist to get done rather than the whole point to begin with.

For example, substrate depth X feet CHECK, substrate consists of a mix of this that and that CHECK, 130 degree basking area CHECK, retes boards CHECK, ambient temp range A to B CHECK, etc.

Interesting this is much like the manufacturing leadership I consult on a daily basis...I can and do list the tools for them, I can define them to the littlest detail. They can even properly implement the tools all over...but often they are MISSING THE POINT and fail to get the results. The tools will be brought in naturally and effectively if you approach it from the right angle. I wont have to list the tools for them, they will develop them on their own, and then they will OWN them and be succesful. I can then provide small detailed improvements to tweek their system based on my experience.

I have no idea why I fall into this with monitor husbandry, human nature is a funny thing.

Tom

haha. FR, you seem pretty bright until you fail to understand my simple little posts. Maybe you are bright and just want to make me look dumb on the fora, who knows.

I thought that I made it clear that cage function(meaning good husbandry skills by the keeper) was as important as the appearance of the exhibit.

A good or perfect exhibit as you say is much more difficult to achieve than a good private cage. Not only do you have to meet all the needs of the animal(to where they will successfully breed), but you also need to recreate what their natural habitat looks like. A post card cage if you will. With out that aspect, people won't care(only us reptile nuts will).

So yes, my criteria for how I judge an exhibit is different than how I judge a private cage. But, good husbandry should never be compromised.
was that any clearer?
cheers

The point you commonly make, that does make you sound amateurish, is your concern with reproduction being seperate from normal husbandry.

I made the point that it should not be considered seperate from, but very much included in the design and function of any cage, public OR private.

It appears to me, from my vantage point(one where our captive monitors commonly reproduce) That folks like you, want it to be commerical or extra or something special. My opinion on that is, your being defensive on your lack of skills. Your, being you or anyone who says such things.

The truth is, monitors successfully breed DOWN TO VERY marginal husbandry. For instance, where one event occurs(even if successful) but takes so much out the the female, she never performs again. Or dies. These two events are very common on here.

Truely, it does not take all that much effort for a female varanid to have 15 to 30 clutches in here life. Consider our record is 67 clutches from one single female and counting. With that in mind, one or two clutches and failure is not my idea of success.

It was before I had the experience I have now. But sadly, I am ruined.

Can I fail with an animal, oh heck yes, but I understand whos at fault, ME. I am not like you who says you have to weed the poor ones out. To me, YOU SUCK(if I can be honest) Sir, that kind of thinking was over in the late 70's. Dude, if they do not succeed in your care, ITS YOUR FAULT. Be responsible, take the blame.

Its true, monitors are no harder to breed than mice. In some cases much easier. You do not have to feed and water monitors on a daily basis, you do mice.

The point is being missed, this tread is not about you or me. But after reading the requirements for that fellas paper, I would have to say, there are no perfect or ever great varanid enclosures. So he only has average to poor ones to compare to poorer ones. With most being complete failures. Particularly with the current understanding that monitors do indeed reproduce like rodents(they are heavy into reproduction)

Oh, and I am not worried about being dumb. That is a common occurance on the internet. Cheers

"FR-The point is being missed, this tread is not about you or me"

hahaha, The only one missing the point is you! you say this thread is not about you or me, and your whole post was tooting your own horn and telling me I suck. It's funny how you creat opportunities to brag about yourself, and at the same time take cheap jabs at me. Please stay on topic. This is a discussion on exhibits in which I have not veered from, not a pissing contest.

I would love to continue this discussing on this topic, but your issues with me prevents any kind of intelegent discussion. Too bad.

I do not know you from adam. The only issue I have against you is the same I have with many of you "young guns" You want to shoot the bad guys, you want to equal to those who have shot lots of bad guys. The problem, you have not shot any bad guys. To understand what its like to shoot them, you must actually shot a few.

Other then that, I see nothing wrong with you, nothing wrong with what your attempting to do. You just need to do it and do it for a long while. The reality is, there is so much you have not done, yet.

Its also not about whom you talk to. You can talk until your blue in the face, keeping living animals, is all about KEEPING living animals. Its an applied effort, its an applied approach. Its no way, no how, theoretical.

In Theory, you will be good one day, WAIT FOR THAT DAY.

I find it very disrepectful of you. You want to be equal, have an equal say, but what have you done??????? ZIPOLA. On top of that, its taken you a heck of a long time to come up with zipola.

You get mad when I mention a successful clutch as a successful event. You forget that a successful clutch INCLUDES all the stuff your going thru, the work, the cleaning, the feeding, the worries, the guessing, the bad choices, the good choices. I make them too. I learn from them too. I have done them many thousands of times. So you think its me with an attitude?? Again, its about context, you need to understand the context.

So you want me to think like you???? Or agree with you, when I see it differently, Sorry, it ain't going to happen. IT won't happen after you have had several hundred successful events. The reason is, I will have had many more then that. Your playing a game of catch up(with experience) only I am gaining more experience then you. In that, your going backwards. Sadly, for every learning event you have, I will have a hundred.

I get the feeling to have an intelligent conversation with you, we must have some common ground to base those discussions on. In that, we don't have any common ground, YET. Cheers

Your education, your experience, your talking to whomever, your reading the whatever, are ALL only preperation for the application of husbandry on a living animal. Husbandry is applied not theoretical.

The results of that husbandry is graded by the actual events that captive living animal achieve. The only way to tell how well an animal is going in captivity is to measure its progress. Then compare that progress to others doing the same thing, then of course to the same species in nature.

In this, you are still only attempting to gain measurable results, you have not reached the first real benchmark. Of course you better then a stark beginer, your animals are still alive, at least some of them. Heck they may be growing too. But because you are making an attempt to raise males and females, they introducing them. Your goal is to see the minimum level of success, which is reproduction. IS THIS TRUE?

In that, your husbandry has to graded as an incomplete. You have not hatched a single one yet.

Once you actually start to see real successful results, you can then compare your results to others to see how your husbandry compares to others. You do not compare yet, as you have nothing to compare.

But you want to be right, you want to be equal, you want to be treated as an equal. If you had a brain, you would understand, this is a very small area of your life. Its only about the monitors, not you and your value to society. Just you, with just argus, on this or our forum. No more, no less.

In that, you have not done anything but talk. You just talk. Well thats great, but while your pushing to be thought of as great or good(gain respect) you actually have to DO something.

That is the difference between a forum on husbandry(applied knowleged) and an academic forum(discussed knowledge)

Consider, applied knowledge is tested by the animals, it has to show(hopefully positive) results. Academic knowledge only has to be agreed upon but the participants. Sir, this IS PART OF OUR ISSUE.

You do not understand the difference between those two areas.

You want to disagree with me and have me say your right. hahahahahahahaha does that make your pants fit tighter???? Sir, your only academic at this point, you have not succeeded in one successful reproductive event. YET, I have experienced many thousands over 16 years, including dozens with the species you are attempting to attain your first successful event with.

Sir, let me say, academic theory is great, but there is context, if you read above, it says, THE KEEPING AND BREEDING. It does not say, the theory of keeping and breeding.

So I ask, why your attitude? why do you want me to be wrong, when I have achieved(as in, history, already done)so much. You want to be right, when you have achieved so little(not even the first major step) Sir, that is reason for me to not think highly of you.

After all that, I feel you have an issue with yourself, not me. I am only a placeholder. If it wasn't me, you would find someone else to try and bring down to your level.

Lastly, considering my history and comparing it to yours, I would be dumb(as you put it) or stupid, to even think your approach, your methods, your understanding is superior to mine. Of course it could be, there is a very slight possibility of that. But then, that can only be expressed in your continued successful results. Results superior to mine. I am cheering you on and waiting for that day to come.

My college wrestling coach taught me this. He explained it was not bad to loss a match, as long as I wrestled up to or above my ability. Its bad when you are brought down to the level of a lessor skilled opponent and lose. In that, your going to have to best me, by stepping up and besting me at my level of expertise. Step up or shut up. You see, I am not going to be fooled by babble, your actually going to have to do something and at this point in time, a lot of that something. Cheers

you're a crack up. I tuely believe that you understand your captive monitors language more than you do of your own species (homo sapien). Your varanid skills are great and your people skills needs a lot of work.

If you could only understand this... I am not trying to prove you wrong or be equal with you in terms of experience. I'm on the forums for discussion, to hear different perspectives. But for some reason all your experience and success has given you a sense of entitlement to talk down to people like you're royalty or something. I refuse to be a part of the FR mini-me club and bow down and say "I'm not worthy". Those are the only people you speak politely to. I have too much self respect for that. I need you no more than you need me at this point.

Bringing in personal stuff in a discussion is not necessary. Stay with the topic. You don't have to attack me to satisfy your Tony Suprano ego.

I have more to say, but I'd be wasting my energy. You wouldn't understand anyway.
cheers

WHat mini me club? That comment proves its all about social standing for you. I ask for no followers. I only try to help people and their monitors. Are you calling those that I have helped in someway, mini mes???? Man your messed up.

I work well with people that can concentrate on the subject. Those that even spend a little time and effort worried about mini mes, are not worth the effort. If your thinking about that, then please do not become a mini me, please do not respond to my posts or go to our forum. I do not want mini mes. I try my darnest to drive them away. Or haven't you noticed that?

I do respect folks who work at this monitor thing. I have learned not to respect those who talk about it. Not until they give me reason to respect them. You see, anyone can talk and they surely do. How many actually do?

I keep trying to make that point, I do(for right or wrong) You seem to talk alot and not do anything. I have no respect for that.

I respect want. Those really wanting to achieve success at this. I respect them even in failure. In my early days, I believe I had many successes merely because I wanted it so bad. It had to be that, because I surely did not know what I was doing.

I have spent my whole life around reptiles. Sir, that is YOUR advantage. I am only a tool for you to use. You are suppose to use me. That's why I bring my experience to these forums. But, its not my job or responsibility to teach you how to use me. It's your job to use me and get the most from me. I am here for you. But if your going to fight with me or make stupid statements about mini mes, hahahahahahahahaha I will only toy with you. You can learn on your own. Good luck with that. Cheers

you drive away those who have their own ideas or different perspectives(successful or not). You're curtious to all who believe every word you say, like it's gospel. It's quite comical. There's no discussion allowed on your forum or this one for that matter. My first post was fuel for discussion, and look how you responded. nice.

I do not disagree with someone who has success, and consistant success, in particular, I do not care how different it is. But to weight theories(your ideas) again fact(what I have done), would be very dumb of me to consider.

I get it, you want me to agree with your ideas no matter how they differ from what I have learned from the actual keeping of monitors. Ok, I agree your right, you should go ahead and do whatever you think. Just don't try and make me practice your ways with my monitors.

I am the first to admit theres a thousand ways to do this. I have a hard time doing the same thing over and over. So I invent new ways to keep it interesting. So its not about one way.

Except if you want success to exclude recruitment as the first sign of success(not the last) I will never agree to calling something successful that omitts what these fine animals do all on their own, without our help. If you want to omit that, great, I will not agree with that.

Do you know how many people have kept argus alive, actually raise them up. Kept them outside in the San Diego area(heck i have many friends that have done that) Many of those have bred them very well. Breeding argus is not new, not new at all, except to you. I guess thats why you fight so much.

So yes, I agree, you better have results if your going to go on talking LIKE YOU DO. I will ask you to show what verifys your theories. If that drives you off, or others, then to bad. Someone has to weed out the bad ones, hahahahahahaha remember, just a few posts ago, you said that about monitors. You have to weed out the bad ones, hahahahahaha Cheers

How about you quit attacking FR. He doesn't need to try to help you. He could let you go on your way and fail like the vast majority of keepers, but he's a genuinely good guy in that he cares about the well-being of your critters, obviously more than you do. If you cared about your reptiles you'd try following advice that would lead to success, instead of trying the same old tactics that have been proven to be unsuccessful. But your ego gets in the way because you don't want to be 'talked down to'. Man, if you were one of my students, I would kick you out of my studio. FR is like a teacher. He tries to give you the information, and he doesn't have to be nice to do it. I'm not always nice when I teach. If one of my students is doing something that leads to failure, I'll be blunt about it. They either leave and continue failing, or they follow my advice and get better. If you're too 'nice', you'll never get the job done and you're doing a disservice to whomever you're working with.

No one's telling you you have to be like FR, but NO ONE should listen to you until you've done something noteworthy. That's the only reason people listen to FR. He's done it and been successful, and you have not. There's no mini-me fan club, just people with brains that realize you should follow the successful people if you too want to be successful.

don't be naive ryan. First of all I have learned a lot from reading FR's threads. Much of my husbandry techniques originated with him. And suggesting I'm using the same old tactics that have proven unseccessful is you just trying to be argumentative, because you don't know me or what I do.

And for the record, it's not my ego that gets in the way, it's my self respect. I don't let anyone talk down to me or take advantage of me. I give respect until I'm disresptected. FR doesn't have to respect me as a varanid keeper, but he should speak to me with respect as a person... but he doesn't. Oh, and being nice or blunt has nothing to do with it.

So thanks for your comments but I have a different perspective on your teacher.

out of curiosity what in my first post do you suppose would be considered an attack?

Well, you should have known better than to come here offering a different perspective on things.

Can we truly expect anything less from such a forum? A propensity for one-way thinking is what makes this forum the best in town!!!

There's no wonder why so many who have so much to offer don't bother posting here.

"And for the record, it's not my ego that gets in the way, it's my self respect."

If that isn't an oxymoronic statement I don't know what is.

"I don't let anyone talk down to me or take advantage of me. I give respect until I'm disresptected. FR doesn't have to respect me as a varanid keeper, but he should speak to me with respect as a person... but he doesn't. Oh, and being nice or blunt has nothing to do with it."

Don't you military guys understand order of rank? How did such a sensitive whiner like you make it through boot camp anyway?

Thanks Neal for your kind words.
The monotony of being out at sea, allows me to be entertained by this ridiculous drama.

I could spell out the differences between egotistical, and self respecting but I'm sure you already know the difference. you just wanted to say something... and you did. congruatulations.

What does rank recognition have to do with anything. It has no place here on the forum that's for sure. You did have a good question though. How did I get past boot camp. I will admit, I am not a military guy. I've felt like a fish out of water for the last 6 years. But I follow through with all my commitments. I thank the good Lord above that I'll be finished and out in less than two months. I'm on my last trip as we speak.

any more kind words?
cheers

Sounds like our tax dollars are being well spent.

When you talk about your self respect you're speaking from the ego. Not that there is something wrong with that- just that you don't see it. At any rate, that last bit about being a fish out of water seemed to be more from the heart.

Any more kind words? Hhhmm... I 'spose it would be fun to call you a..... newbie- I know how that pains you so. Hahaha

I get it now, your bored and have nothing better to do. So you mess with nonsense. Who is your commanding officer? I bet he can find something better for you to do, then make nonsense.

So I also understand why like to live in a theoretical world, instead of a real one. Your out to sea, and you cannot take your monitors with you. So you have no choice but to live by what others say.

To bad, there a lot of cool theories that could be discussed, you know, ones about monitors. And you wonder why I have no respect for you? I really like your cages, but you as a person are bothersome. Cheers

please, I don't need anymore meaningless jobs here on the ship. The TV commercials say it will accelerate your life, but when you get here, you find yourself sweeping P-ways, dusting angle irons, sweeping water off the main deck, shinning the brightwork, separating trash, cleaning heads etc etc. all this and much more all while holding a top secret clearance. lol.

sorry to be so bothersome to you FR. I guess we can't get along with everyone.
cheers

No matter what I have done with my monitors, I have helped a lot of people have success with their monitors. Which means a lot of monitors have benefited from me. Even more have had their monitors live longer and have added something to their lifes. Even if its the simple ability to dig, or hide in RETES boards, I have added those things and more. No offense, but you use high heat basking areas, you know, above 100F, you can thank me. You use deep substrate, oh you can thank me again. Do you get it. How about consideration of nesting, please when the time comes, make them lay on the ground or water bowl. If you offer them nests, you can thank me for that too.

WHAT ABOUT YOU? How have you helped? Who or what, have you helped? Your monitors, your feelings? Thats about all you have done is help your own feelings, in that I say Cool. So what exactly is it, you want me to respect, you?

So you see fit to attack/harass/bother the person who has gone out of their way to help you. Sir, that reflects directly on you. You deserve NO respect. But I do like your monitors. Remember, at first, I really tried to help you. The problem is, you have this chip on your shoulder, sir, I cannot help you with that. Go elsewhere to seek help for that. Just stay away from me, or I will repeatedly put you in your place. You ain't done nothin but talk, thats your place.

By the way, I do understand what your doing, your not the first. You have such an ego, that you use my methods and suggestions, then attack me, so when and If you have success, you will not have to share it with me. You can take it all on your own. hahahahahahaha even at that, your commonplace. The problem is, if you did achieve success, I would indeed compliment you. And I would give you all the credit. Even if you used my methods. Cheers

What your missing is, I am not talking you down. I am talking to you as to where you are. I bring out your real level of experience. That bothers you and many others.

The real question is, why do you and others want to act like you are more then you really are? Again, this is not about you away from monitors. Just here.

Why do you come and act like you have tons of experience? Why do you offer advice to others when in many cases they have far more experience and success, then you? Why do you think your opinion is so valued when you have not done anything? These are the questions You should ask yourself.

Yes, it is rude of me to ask you to explain your actual experience and its rude of me to demand you show why you say what you do. But that needs to be done to get real information.

Doing that has brought truth to this forum. Now those that want to talk, just to talk and make up things(for whatever reason) think twice about that. They now think, if I say this and that, that mean old FR will make me prove/support/verify it. Then I will spend days talking about people(him) and not ever say a thing about monitors. Just like your doing.

When I first came here, this forum was chock-o-block with story tellers. Those talking without any actual success. Those teaching others(reponding to beginers posts) when they actually did nothing. This, as you know, went all the way to the top to the most respected varanid theologists(they are that because they actually did nothing with monitors).

I wonder why varanid keepers are so far behind the rest of the reptile keepers. In all other areas, all you have to do is follow a simple set of instructions and you can expect to breed that type of reptile. But not with monitors. When I came in, only a handful of species had ever been bred. And even fewer had been bred more then once and actually produced more then one offspring. There was absolutely no one, with successful experience. Yet, they all talked like they did.

So yes, I changed the landscape, not only did I do what the title of this forum is about, but I did it in numbers that were far beyond anyone in the world. Both in species(maybe not more species then Bernie) But close and without question in numbers and generations.

That combination, numbers, generations, and number of species, dictate that I have something going on. That something scares the peewater out of those talkers(people who talk, without doing)

And I am strong enough to not have to make friends with every Joe Blow, that keeps a monitor, poorly or otherwise.

So all in all, I am not talking down to you. I am making you talk at your real level. Which appears to be below what you think you are. And that bruises your ego, much like it does so many others. If you would only talk and give advice on your actual level, I would have no need to do this.

As you know, this is not allowed on our forum. We expect the folks that go there to be past this. We do not expect them to be expert monitor keepers. Just be past this. We expect them to me mature enough to discuss monitors in a real life basis, without theory, without prejudice, just discuss and share. We expect to talk about their experience, not a host of ghost writers that they are talking threw.

Now the problem, At least 75% of the keeping of monitors is About this, the people and their bullbeans. Its the bullbeans that stops them from having success. You need to contribute to sweeping away the bullbeans, not adding to it.

One common sign of those talking types is, to boast of their conditions, to make a website showing all manner of great stuff, like what they are showing has worked. All well before achieving actual success. Most of these have the site up, before they even acquire the monitors in question. This is commonplace. Also, those who name themselves after a monitor. Then they GET that monitor after they name themselves, not after achieving great success. That again is putting the cart in front of the horse.

Yes, I am goannaman, but I did not name myself, Phillipe DeVosile(sp) the man behind Vivarium and The Third wave of reptile keeping did in his articules about me. I had no input on that. I think, thats how its suppose to be done.

So yea, its pretty easy to see who wants it to be about ego and who actually wants it to be about monitors. I do respect that you go by Shay. I also respect the nice cages you are attempting(key word) to use. But all I am getting at is, WAIT UNTIL YOU HAVE POSITIVE RESULTS, before you think yourself expert enough to offer advice that can effect the lifes of living monitors. Because sir, THATS WHAT ITS ABOUT, the lifes of living monitors.

Thats all I ask, THINK about the lives of those animals. I try to judge what folks say in one way and one way only, DOES IT HELP the animal, or does it hinder the animal. I never fight or argue with advice that helps the monitors, even if its made up by the poster. Even if its pure fabrication. It only needs to help.

Now more about you. You are already behind the norm. It only takes 6 or 7 months to raise up and successfully reproduce Argus. UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS. That you haven't reflects on whats important to you.

You dwell on areas that are not important. Thats you SIR. Not me. Are you harming your animals, not yet, but we will see. Your going to say, but all I raised up is males. Hmmmmmmm sexing monitors is the KEY TO BREEDING THEM. YOU NEED A PAIR. first and foremost. With argus, a pair, a box, a freezer full of rodents, you will breed them. So, it appears for whatever reason, your making something simple, into something complicated. Thats your choice. The truth is, What is important is the order in which you do things.

My training in mechanics(troubleshooting) was to make something complicated into something simple. You will see a main focus with me. I make it simple, those that talk, WANT it to be magic, something unexplainable. Something they can spend days, months, years, talking about. All the while, I go on, going on. SIMPLE I tell ya. Cheers

P.S. Oh by the way, how does one with lots of experience talk to someone with none and not be precieved to talk down. Please Educate me here. I am willing to learn.

P.P.S Then explain why those with no experience talk like they have lots of experience, then get upset when it comes out, they don't have that experience. You do understand, thats bound to happen with a subject that reveals results.

wow, you are never short on words are you. I guess you've pinned me in a corner this time... you've exposed who I really am. Funny thing is, it's no secret. I'll be the first to say I havn't bred monitors. I have no shame in what I've done or more importantly(to you)... not done with regards to monitors.

you covered a lot in your last post, a lot of which I care not to respond to. I'm not nearly as long winded as you. I agree with a lot of what you said, but I seem to be at the point where I just take a deep breath and say "roger that FR". I see where you're coming from and I understand that we have different perspectives on things. I will continue now with my quest to find a compatible pair of Argus.
cheers

thats the great thing about my project, we have to look at it from the animals stand point and we also have to look at it from a viewers stand point.

here is what our teacher is grading us on....

2 separate posters (or a Powerpoint presentation) documenting your exhibit evaluation
the posters/presentation must address all of the following housing criteria to support your evaluation: (i.e., long term housing must provide the following)
adequate space
correct temperature, lighting, and humidity
designed to reduce territorial conflict (i.e., provide hiding holes, enough room for separate feeding areas, etc.)
provide areas for courtship, nesting, and denning
provide for special needs (i.e., swings, pools, perches)
no hazards (wires, nails, protrusions, peeling paint, untreated wood, rust)
protection from free-ranging wildlife, vermin, etc.
easily cleaned and sanitized
appropriate graphics
the scientific names of the animals in the exhibits (Genus species)
the number of animal in each exhibit
is the exhibt keeper "friendly"
how you felt as a zoo visitor when viewing the exhibits
photographic documentation to support your evaluation
a separate paper portion for each exhibit to support your evaluation. The paper should include information on the natural habitat and natural history of the animals and address all of the above caging criteria to support your analysis.
each paper needs to be a minimum of 3 pages in length, typed, double spaced, and properly cited. SPELLING AND GRAMMAR COUNTS! DO NOT just cut and paste, that's called plagerism.
a bibliography must be included for each paper and include at least 4 references.
Powerpoint presentations, reports, and posters MAY NOT be returned and may be used for future classes, etc. You will be properly credited.
you can work in pairs on this project but take care - you will share the grade regardless of who did which portion.

thanks again

ashley
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"I’m scared of those nasty big-eyed grey aliens, too. I think it’s that I don’t understand their motivations. I am confident of my ability to out-think, out-con, or if need be, tire-iron-upside-the-head demonic forces, ghosts and goblins, things that go bump in the night, etc. It’s the notion of something that doesn’t have any desire to talk to me except via anal probe that freaks me out"

Interesting concept. Anyway we could get a peek at the final product?

It sounds like this project is designed to evaluate more than how an exhibit looks. Don't be afraid to be a tough judge of the enclosures.

sure, if i can i'll post my project.

its more of an oral presentation with neat displays, but i'll do my best to show it when i finish it in a few weeks

Ashley
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"I’m scared of those nasty big-eyed grey aliens, too. I think it’s that I don’t understand their motivations. I am confident of my ability to out-think, out-con, or if need be, tire-iron-upside-the-head demonic forces, ghosts and goblins, things that go bump in the night, etc. It’s the notion of something that doesn’t have any desire to talk to me except via anal probe that freaks me out"

I recall an AWESOME emerald monitor exhibit at Brookfield Zoo. It looked just like a tropical rain forest habitat. ALL NATURAL FURNITURE I might add. And the lizard layed in plain view much of the times I was there. The keeper placed heat lamps to encourage basking for the publics enjoyment. Despite what you said, this situation was a spectacular EXHIBIT. AHamp may be able to comment on this one, as he was the supervisor there for years I beleive. Cheers!