Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey gang...HH and I deduced that Bindy's weird behavior is in all probability, scared of everything. She flinches at every movement, and as of late, even scared of crickets lol.

I've been trying to handle her more, and even let her on the floor to explore. But all she does is sit there, frozen with fear. I don't know where she's developed this fear...as I've always taken good care of her, and this fear has only started in the last month and a half. She's about 8 months old, btw.

She's in a 55 gallon tank, and yes, she started the fear thing after I moved her from her 20 gallon. Just today I covered 3 sides of her tank with brown packing paper.

She's still only eating a fraction of what she used to, but she drinks plenty, and poops normally. She's very healthy looking, even has a pudgy lil gut. lol

I really wanna help her to not be so fearful. I'm trying to handle her LOTS more, but now I'm second guessing myself, wondering if this stresses her out MORE.

If anyone can offer ANY suggestions, I'd be very grateful. Really not sure what to do. Thanks, everyone!

Niddy

sounds to me she is just taking a long time to adapt to her new cage. My suggestion, leave her alone completely for a couple weeks. Just feed and clean her cage, but don't handle her at all. You can talk to her a bit etc. After a few weeks, go back to handling her briefly, for only a few minutes. Then put her back. As she adjusts to short periods of handling, you can increase the time.

If food intake decreases when you start handling again, maybe cut it back again.

Too much stress can cause health problems and its best to isolate all causes of stress and remove them. Also, at her age, dragons can get into strange mood swings which may pass in a few weeks as well.
-----
PHLdyPayne

Thanks so much! I'll try this.

I gotta pull her out of her cave every day up to her basking spot. (otherwise she'll stay in there all day...she's always sooo cold!) She even hates this (the moving part). Once she's there, she'll bask for the rest of the day. Any suggestions for this?

Thanks!

Just take away the hide. That is the only solution.

> > > "Just take away the hide. That is the only solution."

I have to agree.

It almost goes against all logic because here we have a (likely) stressed beardie and the suggestion is to remove its hide, a place where it finds some comfort, relief from stress.

However, the logic behind this suggestion is that the beardie is choosing a mental state over its physical state, and thereby possibly making its mental state worse.

Giving the beardie time to itself like PHLdyPayne suggested earlier, will somewhat make up for removing the hide.

BDlvr, read my reply to PHLdyPayne above. I thanked you & her for your help on this situation within that reply. Thanks for your help!

niddy,
What do you think? I honestly feel confident that we've nailed the problem, even though I don't think its very specific. I think its something to do with her new setup, maybe the basking branch, basking rock, some other item, or maybe even a combo. Now we just have to go thru the process of elimination to determine which specific item it is. Starting with anything that may be somwhat obvious or questionable.

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I'd like to thank all 3 of you! It really means a lot!

Can I just ask...are we SURE about the leaving her alone thing??? I'll do it...It just feels like I'm neglecting her. I mean I've heard tons that with ANY animal, if you want them to be docile, handle them often. Are we sure not handling Bindy for a week or more will help, not make her less used to me??

Please know that I really do respect all of you...heaven knows I don't know what I'm doing lol. I just wanna be sure she won't feel abandoned. I know...sounds crazy....ok I'll stop now.

*they're coming to take me away, ha ha*

> > > "...are we SURE..."

Just as sure as: There's no such thing as a "sure thing."

NOT what you wanted to hear, eh?

The average bearded dragon doesn't need to handled a lot for it to be docile, its their nature. earded Dragons are naturally tame, with few exceptions. As far as I know Bindy never has been aggressive. The worst case scenario would be that she became a little flighty after not being handled. I'd rather have a flighty (fleeing) beardie than a stressed beardie. They're generally healthier because of the toll stress has on the body.

The feeling of neglecting her is human emotions. Reptiles aren't capable of emotions, so she's not going to look at it the same way. Plus, I'm sure you can think of a time or two where something was bothering you and maybe some family/friends were trying to help you deal with it but all you wanted was to be left alone for awhile.

Something else to consider; are you making any progress by holding her as often as you have been here lately?

> > > "I've heard tons that with ANY animal, if you want them to be docile, handle them often."

Don't believe in that, niddy, it's not true. I used to think the same way until I got into monitor lizards. I've got a Nile Monitor and a Savannah Monitor that'll flat out turn you every which way but loose if you go trying to handle them. The more I tried handling the Nile the worse it got. It showed me that we can't force everything into submission. Fortunately, with beardies, we don't have to worry about it.

If you're still uneasy about leaving her be for awhile, maybe at least try slacking off some and let the time you're gone be her break from handling.

Hang in there, big heart!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Well, Lady, you either have been paying attention and have a good memory, OR, you took the time to go back for a review of previous posts. Either way, I think it shows good problem-solving skills and care/concern.

Plus, I think you're dead on.

I've been flat covered up and haven't been able to post much in any section here at KS.com. Niddy & I have exchanged a few e-mails since you & BDlvr first joined in our quest to figure out what's up with Bindy (beardie).

It's been a long, drawn-out, process of elimination but thanks to fresh ideas from the two of ya'll I think I've come to the same conclusion as your last reply. There's something about Bindy's setup that's she's not comfortable with.

> > > "After a few weeks, go back to handling her briefly, for only a few minutes."

I'd even go as far as suggesting that Bindy be petted, gently touched/stroked, for a few days before going back to picking her up.

> > > "Also, at her age, dragons can get into strange mood swings which may pass in a few weeks as well."

This is one thing that has sort of held me back on coming to a conclusion. I've got a male that's about 2 months or so older and he started acting like Bindy a fe weeks before she did. I kept holding onto the "phase" idea while trying to objectively look for other possibilities. This is also one reason why I didn't post my thoughts in niddy's first thread, so they wouldn't pollute anyone else's ideas.

My beardie was also placed in a new cage at, or about, the same time his behavior changed. However, mine has kind of come & gone, in/out his different behavior. I think my beardie's main problem is the two younger beardies I got about the same time that are housed in the same room. One I believe to be a female.

Anyway, I may be wrong but I think Bindy's been in her slump too long for it to be a phase, alone.

Summary:
I think PHLdyPayne hit the nail on the head. No signs of parasites, diseases, impaction, dehydration, illnesses (other than stress), being gravid, cage/basking temps all seem to be fine, etc...

And I think your advice is as worthy as your diagnosis.

OK, I'd better stop there before I give you "the big head." LOL!

Well, there you go, niddy. I think the forum has proven its worth where me & you, alone, were having trouble coming to a definite conclusion. But with the help of others, collaboration, I think we've located the problem, now we just have to work on fixing it. It'll take some time, a nice, slow, approach should do the trick.

Thanks for helping out a friend. I owe you & BDlvr one.

Ya'll take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I think some beardies are just more curious than others. When I change my males enclosure he hides like Bindy. So I block or take any hide away before I put him in. Within a few weeks I uncover the hides and he's fine. I never put a cool side hide in during the summer. I don't offer a cool side hide until I can tell they are going to brumate and I don't want them to do so in a hot side hide.

A part of me feels that there is still something else wrong. Some dragons can be real temperature sensitive. The Hot side has an ambient of 85 to the low 90's right. I find an ambient over 91 or 92 is too warm for them. Of course the basking spot should be 105. Also your temps. may be too low possible causing her to think of brumating. You said once that the cool side was 70. That seems odd to me. Even in the winter in my 5' x 2' enclosures the cool side is never 70 when the warm side is the proper ambient. What are you using to heat the enclosure. Bulbs? How many and what wattage? Are they laying on the screen?

I would also consider things like vibration or constant noise. Does your fluorescent fixture make a constant humm? Is the new enclosure in the same place as the old one? Do you have another pet? A curious cat could really stress out a beardie as well as the sight of a natural predator such as a monitor or large bird.

What are you using for UVB? I tried regular compact fluorescents in one enclosure this winter and the dragon tended to shy away from it.

I'd rule out tank size. What is different between her old setup and new? Maybe you should consider a more simple setup. Maybe a 12" x 12" slate tile sitting on top of 2 1/2 logs or something. I looked at the picture you posted again and just really can't believe she can get comfortable on those logs. You should consider this unless it is the same as her old place. Perhaps she fell off once. When dragons are adults they don't sleep in all the crazy positions that the babies do. A flat basking area may entice her to sleep there, so she would still be there when the lights come on in the morning.

> > > "I looked at the picture you posted again and just really can't believe she can get comfortable on those logs... ...Perhaps she fell off once."

I've had a hunch that this is at least part of the problem, if not the problem. Seems like I remember niddy saying that Bindy fell off the basking limb once and almost fell off another time or two. This isn't the same limb used in her old setup.

> > > "A curious cat could really stress out a beardie as well as the sight of a natural predator such as a monitor or large bird."

Heh, when I first got my Savannah Monitor I kept it in a temporary tank on the floor of my living room. Whenever I let my male beardie out to run around he always ran straight up to the sav's tank, staring him down, as if saying, "Uh, huh, who's the big bad boy now?" Ha! There was never any display of aggression, though, from either one of them, which I was surprised about. But it was funny watching my beardie seemingly taunt the sav.

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Even in the winter in my 5' x 2' enclosures the cool side is never 70 when the warm side is the proper ambient.

Dumb question...should it be higher or lower? I just checked the cool side again. 74.4

Bulbs? How many and what wattage? Are they laying on the screen?

I'm using a reflector 65w flood light. Yes it sits right on on the screen.

Does your fluorescent fixture make a constant humm?

Don't have one. *prepares myself for a lecture* lol

Is the new enclosure in the same place as the old one?

Same place, except on the floor now exept on a table.

Do you have another pet?

Yes, we have a cat, but she's been around Bindy every day since day 1. She's (the cat) not even that curious tho. Just walks by every once in a while.

What are you using for UVB?

Um...I use calcium. HH...Back me up?

I looked at the picture you posted again and just really can't believe she can get comfortable on those logs.

She DID fall off the log, so it's long gone. We put cinder blocks (very flat basking areas now) in there now and my hubby made her a wide, sturdy ramp. I wish I could grab a picture, but my camera is dead.

Today, she was on her ramp most of last evening and all night. (on the cool side of her cage) She's still there, even tho her lights on at the other side.

Thanks so much for all of your concerns! We'll get to the bottom of this yet, eh?

HH...I'm taking y'alls advice and letting her be for a while. I'm counting the days, tho! lol

~Niddy

First of all. I want to say that damn "apalachian american"(lol) has been a real improvement to this forum. He is obviously very experienced and knowledgable. All of his posts are well thought out and intelligent. I can tell it comes from much experience and contemplation.

OK, now that he got his perk. lol. Lets move on.

Jeni, don't rely on what one person says. None of use have the all the answers. I personally think you should go the UVB route. Some dragons are fine without it and some are not. Your friend HH has an opposing opinion and I respect that. But, in your case I am concerned and would change everything I do until I find the solution. That's my 2 cents.

I don't regulate the low side temp. but I can tell you that if the ambient in a 4' x 2' enclosure is 91 (I use thermostats) then the ambient on the low side will be about 81 at the least in the summer.(I A/C to 75) I just feel that if yours is 70 then the ambient is no where near 90 on the hot side in only a 55 Gal. tank.

I don't think 65W is enough if you are using a 55 Gal. glass aquarium with a screen top. You need another lamp at least to spread out the heat. (this I'm sure of)

Maybe dragons don't need a UVB source. But, does it really cost that much to give them one. Plus, bright lighting stimulates eating and activity. One 65 Watt bulb is no where near as bright as it is outside. Cage brightness could really be your problem.

I don't understand your answer to the next one but if it means the tank is now on the floor when it was on a table the cat may seem much more menacing from this vantage point.

I'd really consider better lighting. Even if you are hard set on the no UVB thing I'd get regular long fluorescent bulbs. Sunlight is intense in the summer and dimmer in the winter. Fluorescents put out a whiter light and will make your enclosure much brighter that will really help. (B22 support me on this. lol.)

I want to say that damn "apalachian american"(lol) has been a real improvement to this forum.

ROFL AND AMEN

I just feel that if yours is 70 then the ambient is no where near 90 on the hot side in only a 55 Gal. tank.

HUH? LOL OK call me dumb, but I don't know about ambient temp. I've just heard about a basking temp, then a cooler side for beardies to go to to cool off. (74 according to my probe..) So, the 115 basking spot isn't accurate? I'm so confused. lol Sorry! I feel like I'm drivin ya crazy!

You need another lamp at least to spread out the heat.

If I do go the UVB route, will this serve as a 2nd heat source?

I don't understand your answer to the next one

LOL sorry...yes the new cage is on the floor. It's too big to set on a table. But when it WAS on the table, my cat would hang out up on the table.

Thanks yet again,
Niddy/Jeni

OK. You walk on a black road in bare feet and it's way hotter than the 85 the weatherman says it is out. The road is like the basking spot it is warmer because the heat is absorbed by it rather than just passing through it like it does the air. (mostly lol) The 85 the weatherman says is the ambient temp.

So you put a thermometer probe on the basking spot and it should read about 105. You put another out of the direct light on the hot side and it should read in the high 80's. Sometimes it's called the background temp. If she's over 12" I'd drop that 115 down to 105.

I posted a pic. I use two spot bulbs in this enclosure. There is a temp. probe embedded in the tile that displays the basking temp. (assuming there's no dragon on it) on the outside of the cage. (just out of the frame of the pic) and then near the glass and on the far wall you can see Flukers Thermometer/Hygrometers that show the ambient (background) and humidity.

UVB fluorescents do not provide heat. My thought for heat was another lamp with a slightly lower wattage bulb.

The problem with enclosures with screen tops is that heat rises. So it takes more watts to push the heat down. If you can get the cage ambient right then you can raise or lower the basking spot to get that temp. right. If the ambient on the hot side is say 88 then I am sure the cool side will be closer to 80 and not 70.

Thanks so much, BDlvr! Duh! Got it. I've got plenty of lamps, I'll rig another one up today.

Great setup! I think I'm gonna do the UVB thing. Since she's not eating still like she should, I'm not sure she's getting enough calcium anyway.

Thanks again!
Niddy

niddy,
You can try a few things to get overall cage temps up. You can try using a 25-watt or 40-watt bulb in a dome reflector placed on top. I would position it more towards the center of the setup, maybe a tad more towards the hot end. If this doesn't get the temps up enough you can try covering part of the top with a folded plastic garbage bag, piece of cardboard, etc... Just don't cover the very end of either the hot side or cool side, the ends are vital in creating a good thermal gradient (air is pulled into the tank from the heat of the lamp(s) on the hot end and forced out the top of the cool end).

I hope I'm not too late with this input.
When getting a UVB fluorescent light for a setup you need to first consider where or how it will be installed on/in your setup.

55-gal tanks are 4ft long and aprox 20-inches high. If the UVB fixture will be placed on top of the tank that means that nothing less than a 10.0 rated UVB bulb will provide the strength needed for a beadie to get enough UVB rays from the bottom of the tank, which should be your goal, not the distance to a basking limb or rock, but all the way to the cage floor.

A 4ft fixture won't fit inside the tank so it will have to be placed on top. A 3ft fixture will fit inside the tank & still cover the recommended area for maixmum useable rays. There can be mounting problems with inside the cage fixtures for tanks. Usually small chain & hooks can be used but sometimes pose a problem with the screen top closing.

By using an inside the cage UVB light fixture, you can use a lower rated bulb, adjusting the height of the fixture to specs. I'm pretty sure UVB bulbs are priced according to strength.

BDlvr can most likely fill ya in on the recommended distances for each bulb rating (5.0, 7.0, 10.0). There's a chart or two online somewhere, I just don't have it handy at the moment.

Catch ya'll later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Thanks, HH...

So, if I'm not very good at rigging, I can get the 3 or 4 ft lamp and just set it on top? It is 2 ft high, but I have A LOT of sand in there, so the lenghth from top to bottom is more like 16-18 inches.

So I'll plan on getting the 10 strength. I think...lol

Thanks!

Hey!
Yeah, I'd get the 10.0, I'm pretty sure its good for up to 21-inches away. Either a 3ft or 4ft will do, they'll cost nearly the same, maybe $2 - $3 difference. The benefit of a 3-footer would be the ability to mount it inside the cage anytime you wanted/needed to.

I think I've shared with you before about light fixtures but I'll touch on it again just in case. You can get one cheaper at Wal-mart or any home-improvement, hardware store. The only thing is they're not as decorative or fancy looking as the ones in petshops but they're a fraction of the cost. I think 4ft shoplights (which is what they're called) are $10 at Wal-mart and they're usually the double bulb ones in case you wanted to add a regular fluorescent bulb for extra lighting like BDlvr was talking about.

You have to keep in mind that if the UVB fixture is going to rest on top of the tank, there still has to be room for your basking light to rest there, too. Unless you put one or the other inside the cage.

The tank that I have a 4ft UVB fixture on also uses a basking light in a dome sitting on top. The UVB fixture is a single-bulb style and I've got it resting partially on the backside of the reflector dome.

In other words, just like most of anything else, it can get a bit complicated but can be done.

A 3-footer may be your best bet, that way you can put it all the way towards the cool side and then angle your basking light so the beam goes between the UVB fixture and the hot end of the tank. Follow me? Or, if your dome is one of the smaller diameter ones, you're in business with ease.

Yell if you've got any more Qs.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

How tall is your tank? I think a standard 55 gal aquarium is only 21" tall, but of course it could be anything these days. Zoo Med says that a Reptisun 10.0 has penetration to 20". The 10% vs. 7% vs. 5% is the amount of light rays put out that are in the UVB range. I wouldn't assume that a 7% would have deeper penetration than a Zoo Med 5.0 which they say is good to 12".

I hate laying things on screen tops. It's just such a hastle when you want to take her out. My glass terrariums are only 17" tall so I suspend all my stuff above it so i can remove the top easily. But I guess I don't have a better suggestion.

Think about getting the UVB bulb online. You will save a lot. petmountain.com has them for only 14.95. I just bought a case from them this week. If you need other stuff they have free shipping if you spend over $150.

If you buy a shop light, be sure you take out the lens so there is nothing but the screen between Bindy and the bulb.

How tall is your tank? I think a standard 55 gal aquarium is only 21" tall, but of course it could be anything these days

Mine is 24 inches, but I have A LOT of sand in there, so the length from top to bottom is more like 16-18 inches.

So getting the UVB on is cheaper than Wal-Mart? Yes, I'm a poor gal and sadly can't afford $150 worth of stuff (even if it's super cool) just for the free shipping. Pathetic, I know.

My glass terrariums are only 17" tall so I suspend all my stuff above it so i can remove the top easily

How exactly do you suspend them? I keep staring at mine, and I can't picture it.

Thanks!
Niddy

Yea I saw you had said the height before. Am just surprised since most 55 Gal are 48 x 12 1/2 x 21.

A Zoo Med Reptisun 10.0 is about $40 in a pet store. Even with paying the freight buying it for 14.95 online is way cheaper.

A far as fixtures go, a basic single tube at Home depot is about $12. But they are designed to be mounted and there is no way you could lay it on the screen. I have seen at Walmart, Target or someplace like that, fluorescent fixtures that are plastic, surround the bulb and have a plastic lens. You just remove the lens and then you can lay it on the screen. I have never bought these so I'd see what length they have before buying a bulb.

The picture I posted earlier of the 3 terrariums has combination hoods bolted to the underside of a shelf I bought at Ikea. A 4 ft. shelf is $12 and a 6' is $20. Or could hang the lights from the ceiling using chain and hooks available at Home Depot.

What is the screen top you have like? Does it slide? Or does it just lay on top. What does it have for mesh? Window screen type or is it larger holes than that?

Are you handy at all? Is there anyone around that is?

What is the screen top you have like? Does it slide? Or does it just lay on top. What does it have for mesh? Window screen type or is it larger holes than that?

It's all made of metal, even the mesh. The holes are a bit bigger than window screen. It's made to lift off, but it's kind of heavy, so I just slide it one way or another when I need to get access.

Are you handy at all? Is there anyone around that is?

My hubby is...he just made Bindy a killer ramp!

Home Depot sells a double stick tape that sort of looks like a thin white foam. It is very sticky and strong. I think if you buy the $12, 36" single fluorescent fixture you could cover the back of the fixture with this tape and then stick it to the glass of the back wall.

Using the pythagorean theorem you should mount it so the bulb is about 17.5 to 18" above the substrate that way it will be no more than 20" from the front bottom corner of the tank. For 20" penetration you would go with the Zoo Med Reptisun 10.0. Then you could cut a notch in the screen to get the cord to the outside of the tank. If you buy one of those lights you'll also need a power cord. I'd just buy a 3 prong extension cord of the appropriate length and cut off the female end.

I'm trying to play catch-up here in this thread. It looks like ya'll have everything covered just fine without me but I wanted to throw in a few comments.

BDlvr mentioned the hassle of having things on top of a top-opening cage. To call it a hassle is putting it lightly, especially if you have more than one setup like that. BTW BDlvr, I like your 3-terrarium setup, complete with shelf.

As far as ordering the UVB bulb from that link, $14.95 for a ReptiSun 10.0 is a good deal, BUT, I didn't look to see what S & H would be. I paid $39.95 for one a few months ago from a local pet shop.

How has Bindy been doing the last few days?

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Why are you two looking for someone to back you up? Ya'll are both doing a fine job and don't need any backup.

niddy,
I am sorry, I plumb forgot all about your thread down here.

While I've got your attention, niddy, I want you to pay attention to what BDlvr said; "Jeni, don't rely on what one person says. None of use have the all the answers. I personally think you should go the UVB route. Some dragons are fine without it and some are not. Your friend HH has an opposing opinion and I respect that. But, in your case I am concerned and would change everything I do until I find the solution. That's my 2 cents." (Very well said, BDlvr!)

Jeni, I know this isn't the first time you've heard this argument for UVB, however, this is the first time you or I have heard it put in plain English, from someone with some common sense. What BDlvr just said in a few sentences is what someone we know failed to say within 3 pages. And he didn't state his beliefs as proven facts, he said, "That's my 2 cents."

Also, BDlvr has another point worth considering in another part of his post directly above this one of mine. He said something about how beardies like bright cages, how it stimulates activity & eating. This is true and can be accomplished with a UVB bulb. So now you have 2 bonuses for one item. (Its worth noting that for my adult male's setup I used one of those compact fluorscent lights for additional lighting, I don't have UVB for his setup.)

BDlvr also said, "in your case I am concerned and would change everything I do until I find the solution."

Remember what I said the other day about pulling out all the stops to try to get Bindy back to her old self? That could make it 3 bonuses for one item (UVB).

Remember Skeeter, that adult female I had got with sever impaction? Do you remember me telling you that I went out & bought a 4ft UVB just for her, in an effort to try everything I could to get her well?

I use that UVB on the two juveniles I have now. No, I can't tell a bit of difference between their growth rate, health, etc..., than with Scooter's (adult male) being kept without UVB.

I'm not switching sides on you, No UVB to UVB, I just don't want to hold you back, which in effect could hold Bindy back. Bindy may very well come around fine without it, but then again, it could be just that extra lil' push she needs.

I still suspect stress, but poor lighting & low heat could easily have a part in it. It can go hand-in-hand.

BDlvr,
Thanks for the perk! LOL! Seriously, though, that is a good post. Very respectful, considerate and had lots of good points.

I'll have to catch up on the rest of this thread in the morning, my daughter needs my PC to make her birthday party invitations.

Ya'll take care & keep up the good work!!!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

B22 uses double fluorescent fixtures in his enclosures. He uses one UVB bulb and then just a standard fluorescent next to it to increase the brightness.

I figured you were talking about some kind of "trick of the trade" or something like that. That seems like a good idea.

I'm curious as to whether or not there's any potential for conflict with the various light rays, although I don't see why there would be.

For the record, I wasn't implying that you and/or niddy were asking for backup due to inexperience or knowledge. What I meant was that I know good & well that you both have what you need. You've both got personal experience in the areas mentioned.

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American