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I have recently been discussing the White Leonis morph with someone, and now I have a question for you guys (and gals). Are all of the true White Leonis Thayeri originally from Dan Vermilya blood?

I was thinking that he was the only one who bred for the white ground color, and thus, "created" the White Leonis, but now I am unsure. Is there any other White Leonis blood out there other than Dan's? (Aside from those Dan V's that have been crossed with other blood.)

Thanks for any input!
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

I have no idea about the white lines in thayeri but I do have to say those pics were lovely!

Were those some of yours or just samples of the look you are asking about?

Sean.

Aubrey, i have only seen them from Dan V, but i would contact him directly or ask Mexicanamak (mike) he may know too

Adam

Here is Great White MSP i got from Dan

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6.6 THAYERI
1.2 SPLENDIDA
1.3 ALTERNA
0.0.1 CORN SNAKE
0.1.1 PYXIE FROG
0.0.1 MEXICAN RED KNEE
1.0 CHILEAN ROSE HAIR

Very pretty MSP, Adam. I think I will contact Dan with this question. Thanks!
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Thanks for the compliment Sean. Yes, those two are mine and I hope to get some eggs from that pair next season. I got them from Dan Vermilya. The male has suprised me by how clean his ground color is staying!
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Aubrey,

Great question and great photo of ARTAX...Thanks. I'm looking forward to reading what some of the "old timers" have to say about this subject (Thanks Tony).

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

Interesting question on many levels but I think the answer would be highly dependent on one’s opinion. If by “true whites” someone wants an animal that has a “pedigree” going back to Dan V stock, then only Dan’s stock would be considered “true whites”. If by “true” you mean something like “pure bred” this would infer that you’re looking for animals that will reliably pass a similar suite of characteristics onto the next generation and I’m not sure that this latter type exists yet. I seem to recall from Dan’s site that he had some pairings that produced above average numbers of leonis with very light and clean ground colors and that he marketed the best of these as whites. I could be wrong but I don’t think that he was so far into the project that he had pairings reliably producing high percentages of whites. This isn’t a bad thing it just means that there is still a lot of opportunity to work with and refine the trait.

Thanks Tony. What I meant by "true" was an animal who has ground color that actually is white. I know some can get a bit speckled as they mature, like my Artax, but all in all they are still white. I have seen others advertised as "white" but are actually a light tan or yellow coloration, and in my opinion those animals are not "true" whites. Am I wrong?
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Aubrey Ross

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www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

This is just my opinion but I think "actually white" might be a bit too subjective. By actually white do you mean china white or is bone white actually white too. At the paint store there are hundreds of samples labled white something...

If I were to purchase a pair of "true" white leonis this is what I would expect. 1) snakes with a very light ground color that is above average variation AND 2)some pedegree information indicating that the animals are the result of some level of selective breeding suggesting that I have an above average chance of producing the same but this would not nessesarily have go back to Dan V's stock.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Sometimes I forget people can't read my mind...lol!

I agree with your labeling theory. Definetely has to have some pedigree information, and extremely light to white ground coloration.

Hmmm... this is getting more complex than I thought!
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Creating a new lable for a snake or line of snake can cause confusion.

here's some pics to help out the discussion...

Dan's Male...

with Dan's white Female...

is how I got this greyish leonis from him


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1 Eastern Blue Tongue Skink
2 Tarahumara Mountain Kingsnakes - Knoblochi
1 Thayer's Kingsnake - Thayeri
2 Golden Greek Tortoises
1 Pyxie Frog - 14 years old

There are a few lies out there that may predate the Dan Vermylia snakes.

Mine kick out whites and they are Gary Sipperly/Bob Applegate/Lloyd Lemke snakes.

Chris

liNes...not lies OOPS np

Hmmm.... thats good to know. Thanks Chris, and lovely snake!
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com