Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All,

This private forum that has been set up to fight against HB 12 is exclusionary and elitist. I can understand not wanting LE to see it but to ban non-LE stakeholders who have a vested interest in their right to road collect herps is totally unacceptable.

I can not sit back and allow this to happen. Letting a few elitist hobbyists push through their agenda and broker deals FALSELY representing ALL hobbyists can not be allowed.

To prevent this from happening I will be having my own meetings with Hilderbran (Todd K), Matt Wagner and the TPWD Commissioners to be sure my interests are protected. Further, I have committed funds for legal representation and will be working towards an inclusive solution rather than an exclusive one.

If any of you who have been excluded would like to participate please let me know. ALL ARE WELCOME WHO ARE STAKEHOLDERS!

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX
OHI2007@elp.rr.com

I don't consider commercial collectors to be a part of herping community.

I've heard your explanations about herps being a "renewable resource" that we have a right to "harvest". However, in my opinion, just because a resource is renewable does not justify commercial collection.

My personal opinion is that the herping community should draw a VERY CLEAR LINE between personal collecting or collecting for breeding versus collecting for sale of the wild caught animals. The only sale of wild caught animals that I can support is for research or educational purposes that cannot otherwise use captive bred animals, or to approved captive breeders that will reduce the demand for wild caught animals.

I hate to say it Mike, but IMHO you are part of the problem, not the solution.

How many lizards and toads will you have to sell to fund your campaign?

everyone has the right to set up any forum they wish. clearly commercial collecting and hobby collecting are different. I am not against commercial collecting but it is a separate issue.
Richard

We don't know what the "secret" forum is working on because it is "secret" that is my problem with it. I do know that many of the people that have been invited to participate in the "secret" forum want to ban commercial harvest and they have mentioned that publically. They have also said that they would gladly support banning commercial harvest to get road collecting back. So as far as I am concerned the "secret" forum can not be trusted.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

i agree with you daryl as far as commercial collecting, it should and hopefully will go the way of the dinosaur.

Eby,

You have a right to your opinion but you are wrong in your assumptions of me and quite ignorant to the reality of the situation as I see it.

First of all HB 12 is about road collecting not commercial collection but since you mentioned it I do collect for research. As a matter of fact some of the animals I have collected have been used in cancer research, human anti-venom and dog anti-venom. But I am also a hobbyist and I use to collect from the road like everyone else. I keep and breed many species. I also do herp research and I am a former zoo herpetologist so I have plenty of credentials. I also have a few college degrees. So I know what I am talking about. What are your credentials?

Outside of the catch and release picture-takers all other gray-bands are harvested from the wild so if you ban commercial collection the same amount will still be taken from the wild. If you ban road collecting then no more road locailty alterna. Those that have them have a corner on the market.

How many gray-bands should be allowed to be collected for personal use? Shouldn't there be a limit? I don't hear you proposing that.....you know...conservation. Bag limits are the answer for species that need harvest protection. Once a species is taken from the wild it is out of the gene pool. You have to have some access to founder animals and new blood. That is just a reality. But here again this is about road collection not commercial collection unless people make it about that. We need to do a lot of work on both issues.

Bottom line is that you and the like have already formed an opinion about me w/o considering what I stand for and that is not fair or right. You probably just read my posts and don't comprehend a thing or even try to open your closed mind. I have explained my positions before but yet you refuse to see the reality of the situation. I will not bicker back and forth with a bunch of closed minded people.

I will continue to fight for my rights and REAL conservation. HB 12 is about road collection NOT commercial collection anyway. If I throw a monkey wrench in some of the private forums plans then let me apologize now. Since I was kept out of the loop I didn't know what they were working on.

Take Care,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I really like herps. That's it. End of resume.

IF I mischaracterized you I'm sorry. My impression of you as a commercial collector was based on your prior posts and miscellaneous comments from others. I'd welcome any correction if I am mistaken,

Just to be clear, I don't think you are "bad" for selling what you consider to be a renewable resource. I believe that you don't think that doing so hurts the population base. I just look at the smaller picture and feel bad for the wild herp that ends up in a pet store. I just can't support that. If all of your commercial sales are to researches and breeders, then I have absolutely NO objection to that and have repeatedly stated that should always be allowed. However, my impression was that you sell to whoever will buy.

FWIW I really enjoyed meeting and speaking with you on the River Road. Also, I admire the work you do as a breeder. I gave up keeping herps years ago because I'm no good at breeding them. I owe a debt of gratitude and respect to all successful breeders.

Eby,

Apology accepted and yes, I have been mis-characterized many, many times on several different forums. No one on these forums knows me personally and what I do or have done. So they can not speak about me with any accuracy. I have done a lot of things with herps over the years but I have always been for herp conservation - wise use. When I was getting my Bachelors degree I was even for banning all wild caughts, not even for personal use, just scientific research. But you grow and evolve and realize the reality of the big picture. I have sold some animals to the dealers over the years to cover gas costs like many on this forum have. I moved to TX and started this business in January of this year and I have not sold one animal to a dealer. I have maybe only sold about 30 animals so far, all to private hobbyists, a couple on these forums. I also have a couple orders from some researchers. I usually only collect what I have orders for. I don't collect every animal I see and try and sell it like many dealers do. I just don't want the door shut completely on non-institutionally affiliated people that is all. I am against high impact commercial harvest. I think bag limits can keep that in check and I fully support captive propagation.

I think we see things almost the same and I to enjoyed meeting you on RR earlier this year. I hope we can put aside any minor differences of opinion and work together to conserve herps and enjoy our hobby.

Take Care,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Whatever we believe about commercial collecting-and I must say I don't think attempts to commercially collect off roadways have much actual impact on herp populations (just look at how few try it anymore)-the fact is that it is a non negotiable issue to both TPWD and the interested legislators. Their hostility to commercial collection of terrestrial nongame vertebrates appears pretty unshakable. And a large number of herpers agree with them.

If there is to be compromise here, I predict that compromise will not include allowance for commercial collecting.If we want to help pay for our gas, then we'll have to rely on breeding our animals back home.

Brad Chambers

Brad,

Commercial collection is already legal. You can catch as many of the "White List" species as you want and sell the hell out of them.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Mike

that's true, but it's also true that the primary impetus behind 2414 was to curtail the "perceived" activities of "perceived" commercial collectors. The critical misperception was the belief on the part of some in TPW that all or most herpers were making money by collecting and selling wild reptiles and amphibians. this is, of course, about as far from reality as it is possible to be!

The job of the herping community-and one which we are gradually beginning to accomplish-is to erase that misperception. In order to achieve this it is essential we seperate ourselves from commercial interests. Therefore, IMO it would be folly to be seen as defending the interests of commercial collectors.

Brad Chambers

However, make no mistake-I think what you're doing, Mike, is entirely appropriate. Those who are committed to maintaining a commercial market for wild caught herps should definitely organize and press their agenda in Austin and with TPW, I just believe it is unreasonable to expect hobbyist field herpers to push that agenda themselves.

Brad Chambers

No post

Brad,

While I respect your opinion, I do sell wild caught animals. I provide an acquisition service to those that need founder stock, exhibit animals, research animals and the like. Not everyone can afford to take collecting trips and many have no field skills but have excellent husbandry skills. I just don't want the door closed and I will keep my foot in the way to prevent it from closing.

I would fully support some type of collectors permit and bag limits. The reality is that the herp world is different from game animals, song birds or any other animal group in a lot of ways and it requires new thinking and a different approach. We can not give in to ignorance.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

As I stated before, I'm not necessarily against selling wild caught animals. Though I've made the personal decision not to do it myself, I have done it in the past. My point is that many who are behind the new law, and whom we are now negotiating a compromise with, are foursquare against it. Even though herps are a unique group, you'll find it difficult to convince these folks of that. It's a new world now, and the commercialization of natural resources is no longer as accepted as it once was.

My only personal concern with the matter is that I believe there should be bag limits (I know I'd personally be hard pressed to catch enough to just pay my gas expenses! LOL).....

I think it's appropriate that commercial collecters have a separate forum from personal take/captive breeders. Their motivations/methods are different and I don't think the two should be looked at as the same by LE.

Aaron,

What happens if you do both?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

First I will say that I don't think commercial collecting is not inherently bad and it is very possible to do it in a sustainable manner with many species. After all it is done with fish. But because of lack of data it is a VERY tough sell to game agancies, especially when those agancies do not seem to want to do anything that would add to their workload.
So essentially I would say if you are doing both and wish to continue doing both you are in for a very tough fight and will have alot less support from the hobby as a whole.

I think a fine point was made with resepct to collecting the roadside, however, a captive breeding program for the animals commercails do sell could be set up by commercails and a standard collctors permit to capture occassional wild caughts to keep the gene pool static. I am quite aware of commercials in Nevada that have actually decimated certian areas of horned lizards and sold them out of the country for $200 dollars a pop. SO this is not every comnmercial person, but I thinlk there is a distinct differnece between a hobbyist, researcher than a commecial for my two cents. I think you probably have taken an appropriate step to represent yourself. I am under the impression that the reason this (HB12) was instiututed had to do with commercail collectors. While its unfair to make everyone pay for the mistakes of a few........we are all paying.
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www.phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I agree and I support limited harvest NOT high impact commercial collection.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I am sorry you feel that way. Private forums serve an important function. I am certain that much of what has been written here
has been reviewed by members of Hilderbran's office as well as members of TP & W. and it doesn't really help to give them a public road map to strategy. I have recommended them to a number of people when fighting legal issues of this nature.

I was not invited to participate in any private forum, but expressed my wishes that I not receive such an invite nor receive information from any forum of that nature.

I was not invited in for any type of "private" session with anyone involved in this issue, and had I received such an invite I would have turned it down. In fact I have counseled against it. No one that has met with Hilderbran or anyone else has had my endorsement or represents my interests or the interests of many other interested parties. If, however, you want to meet with Hilderbran, I say the more the merrier. Flood his office with sit down requests.

I don't feel that anyone will accomplish anything by sitting down with Hilderbran, Texas Parks and Wildlife or even Rick Perry for that matter. Look at all they did with the input they received before they passed the laws anyway.

As far as I am concerned ladies and gentleman, Hilderbran and TP&W have incited this war against herpetoculture in Texas and until they have withdrawn from the field carrying the remains of HB12 in tatters, I am not backing down one iota. Expect more videos, more announcements, and more posts. I will keep going like the energizer bunny. My goal is to flood Google and every other search engine with thousands and thousands of posts, videos and messages regarding this subject so that anyone doing a search on Hilderbran, TP & W, or anyone else involved will find it impossible to navigate the web without reading something about this. Keep posting, it is important. Post here, post there, post everywhere. We may not be able to get any press but Google lasts forever.

I spent $40,000 over an S to make a point in the past, I have no qualms in financing a battle to the Texas supreme court over "Harvey's Law". Hilderbran's methods subverted the democratic process, he ignored us in committee, he will continue to ignore
us and so will TP & W. They will continue to run own their own agendas to their own purposes.

I have no intention of meeting up, backing off, slowing down, or negotiating. Appeasement and negotiation is not a strategy that
works when dealing with people who have already proven to be untrustworthy. Neville Chamberlain found that out the hard way in 1939. I do not intend to come back from Austin with a peace of paper declaring "Peace in Our Time".

Edited on June 28, 2007 at 18:57:07 by jeffb.

Edited on June 28, 2007 at 18:57:53 by jeffb.

Edited on June 28, 2007 at 19:01:21 by jeffb.

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I don't feel that anyone will accomplish anything by sitting down with Hilderbran, Texas Parks and Wildlife or even Rick Perry for that matter. Look at all they did with the input they received before they passed the laws anyway.

Jeff.........plus 1

I recommend that everyone take one more look at the synopsis of this law that was posted over on the Alterna Page. Your rep Hilderbran was bought and paid for by special interests that are tired of seeing snake hunters anywhere near their property. Until I hear a more logical explanation, that's my stand. Take a look at all the new TP&W job slots that will be created with this new law. I'm assuming you know what FTE's mean. Why is anyone surprised that TP&W has thrown in with this. I've never seen a department head that didn't want more money in his budget!

One can only speculate what kind of a bone that TP&W will throw to herpers to get you off their backs. I'm guessing you might get some access to WMA's if you are willing to pay some extra money. Basically you could expect to pay more money for FAR LESS access.

Here in Florida, we are trying to go the opposite way in controlling government spending. We are looking to pass a property tax relief law, that by most peoples calculations will reduce local budgets by 7-9%. We are trying to reduce the OPM(other people's money) supply to these spendthrift local governments that have gotten fat on the property tax revenues of the housing bubble that is now deflating. Those that control the purse strings of the politicians, control the politicians. You need to rein your monkeys in fast!

I am pleased to see that you are doing something Mike! Now if everyone would go about there business with something in mind other than rants, maybe we will all get something. To sit back and whine solves nothing, I am glad you are taking initiative to have meetings with HH and the like. Maybe they will listen to you.
Todd Hughes
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Todd Hughes

Mike,
I didn't set up any private forum in response to HB 12. It was MY private forum and it was already set up.

I did let a few more of MY FRIENDS in, but that was it. So you got it wrong.