Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone noticed how many people are offering blue-tongue skinks that are mis-labeled as to the species?

Also - have you noticed that there are babies being offered that appear to be crosses of some sort?

We have seen recent ads for "northern babies" that do not look like any northern babies we have ever seen - or like those that the reputable breeders we know of sell.

We already know of a few herpers that breed any blue tongue to whatever other blue tongue will mate with it. While those offspring might be interesting to look at - and might make great pets - they should never be considered breedable (IMHO).

Does it really boil down to just dollars and cents? Is a pure-blooded blue tongue going to be hard to find in the near future? I hate to think of the "Heinz 57" BTS.....
~Morgana

Yeah... I feel/see that too. For every reputable breeder, there are 10 more that could care less as long as they produce something that sells.

I also think there is a trend for all herps for "cool mixes". The kingsnake/milksnake world is one of the worst. Corn snakes are also mixed right up.

The problem for us... that the Bluey stock we have in the U.S. is all we are ever going to get.

My thanks goes out to those who are trying to keep their lines clean.
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1 Eastern Blue Tongue Skink
2 Tarahumara Mountain Kingsnakes - Knoblochi
1 Thayer's Kingsnake - Thayeri
2 Golden Greek Tortoises
1 Pyxie Frog - 14 years old

I am not big on hybrids either, but for the most part, I am not against it, but any breeder mixing and matching species of any animal (be it corn snake to emory rat snakes or northern blue tongues to Eastern) should clearly label the babies as hybrid northern BTS x Eastern BTS or whatever. The snake people do this which is exactly the right thing to do.

Will this reduce possibility of sales? Not likely. If somebody wants a blue tongue skink and likes the look of BTS type a and BTS type b crossed together, then they will buy it, but if they do breed it, it is good for them to be aware they have a hybrid, so when they sell babies..they can say BTSab x BTSc hybrids....instead of saying they are pure BTSa or whatever.

It could also be due to pure ignorance of the breeder. They may not realize there are more than one kind of blue tongue skink (which they should be aware of, if they did any sort of research...) or may have been misinformed by another misinformed or dishonest person. Maybe sending the sellers of mislabeled or hybrid skinks a private email saying they mis named the type of skink (with reference links to the appropriate site, so they can see its just not guesswork) Could also mention the value shouldn't change, just mark it as a hybrid so buyers known what they are getting.
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PHLdyPayne

Well, I tried the private email routine with one guy that was selling his babies here. Ha! He wasn't having anything to do with the idea that his were not pure northerns.

I even went as far as to send him pictures of a newborn litter of northerns - pointing out the color on the bands (2 color area and portals). The pictures of his babies showed one band of color and no portals. The mix was either eastern or IJ. The anterior legs were light on the 6 or 7 babies - but not quite as light and clean as a northern. However - since I didn't see any speckling on the anterior legs, my guess was eastern x northern, since he refused to send pics of the parents.

They offspring actually looked like IJ babies - with clean front legs. Very dull as far as the northern coloring goes...

The seller claimed he got his breeding pair from a fella that had them for 12 years and swore they were F2. Well, that sounds old to be still producing babies to be honest - but I don't have any proof of that not being possible currently.

We currently keep 4 species and we would NEVER consider crossing any of them - even if it means we go without offspring for that year. Last year we bred only 1 of our females, this year only 5. We could have bred all 23 girls easily - but choose not to flood the market. In four years, we have had 9 litters - we just don't feel there is a need to breed every year either. But when we DO breed, it is pure bloodlines and we proudly show the parents.

The hybrid craze has affected the chameleon market too - so we got away from focusing on them. We found that there are breeders out there that think breeding any panther morph to another is perfectly fine. Don't they know that too many colors make mud?

While we feel that some hybridization occurs naturally in nature - why push the envelope???

It is not unlike dogs - soon you can't see any specific breed traits in the mix - you have produced a "loveable mutt".

Morgana

hmm, I can't remember how old blue tongues get...20 years? If they are really long lived, 12 year old breeding may not be too off the mark, depending of they actually bred every year. F2 only means second generation from original parents, so in itself, doesn't mean anything. They still can be second generation from a hybrid pair, and still be hybrids..in fact, once you cross breed to another subspecies, you never get a 'pure' animal (eventually it will be to the point you won't be able to tell the difference between the hybrid (hybrid bred over and over in subsequent offspring to 'pure' animals) and a pure animal, due to how dilute the genes are.

But, people should be willing to be honest with what they are selling.

Unless that guy has no clue he is selling hybrids and thinks you are just trying to get the animals cheaper...
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PHLdyPayne

Well for a start, Easter x Northerns are not HYBRIDS - they are intergrades which happen VERY frquently in the wild. Most of the population of american Easterns are fron Intergrade stock with only a couple of breeders having pure lines, and i know of one breeder that has knowingly purchased illegally imported easterns - he is apparently a reputable breeder. So basically - how can you trust anyone over there? People complain about how wild caught BTS are bad and we shouldn't support it, and how breeders aren't in it for the money - just the love of the animal, this is a crock of shat. If a specific breeder cared about wild caughts and not about the money - he probably wouldn't have taken them - however he did. Put it down to the money - cuz that's what it's about!

I've been accused of "Slapping" people in the face with this comment - but to be honest - if any offence is taken to this comment - maybe you should look at yourself, otherwise accept it and move on, cuz i get offended by the crap you try and spin to people.

In regards to hybrids - well, no-one seems to hybridize skinks that don't naturally come across each other in the wild. Americas Natural blood lines will obviously become mixed due to the fact you can't get any more Aussie BTS. If Love blueys that much, then the blood lines won't matter - but if you love money - then they will.
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'In Nothing We Trust'

Blotch,
You are correct - northerns x easterns would be intergrades. My error in typing. What I meant to say is that they looked like IJ crossed with eastern or IJ crossed with northern. Those wouldn't be considered intergrades.

The situations I get upset about is the herper that breeds a giga with a IJ and then tells everyone the parents were smuggled in from Australia and they were lucky to get them. Yeah - it happened, I saw the sign stating the claim. And that herper continued to cross breed several blueys - but their customers were told they were buying pure australian blueys.

Currently there is an ad on this site for blueys for sale - 2 pairs. One "pair" is a giga male and a IJ female. To me, breeding those would be just plain wrong! The novice buyer wouldn't know better either - sad.

In one of the ads I mentioned before, one seller changed his ad to read IJ - which is exactly what the babies look like. The other seller told me that he wholesaled his babies - so those mixes are now being sold as pure northerns somewhere.

If buyers see these mixes and are told they are pure - then what are they going to think when they see the real thing??? If you bought a Maserati only to find out it was really a Carmen Ghia - you'd loose faith in cars.

Also, it doesn't surprise me about the "reputable breeder" who got illegal easterns. Some of the breeders we know are all about the dollar.

Personally, we are not against buying wild caught either. We have raised & sold lots of cb chameleons - and we purchased many w/c to be able to do so. In the case of blueys though - since we cannot get stock from from Australia, we are limited to careful breeding.

~Morgana

Agreed. I do understand the points on why Americans are against the hybridizing of blueys, however I'm also a fan of pro choice. This doesn't mean I'm for people mislabelling hybridized babies - this is a form of theft. If a business advertises a mustang as a camaro and someone with no knowlege of cars buy the stang thinking that it's a camaro - then the business can get done for false advertising (well atleast over here they can - AU).

I personally was trying to hybridize Easterns with blotches. The reason? A project - do something in captivity that occurs in nature. I've since abandoned that - due to a few reasons, however I would indeed like to pick it up sometime in the furture.

As long as hybrids are labelled as what they are - there shouldn't be a problem. a pure northern is worth just as much as a hybrid, it just may not be what you are after.
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'In Nothing We Trust'

Blotch,

We would love to have alpine blotched in our collection.... I know - not likely to happen. But maybe a european breeder will sell their offspring over here someday.

Have you seen the solid black and albino easterns? I understand that the original female was found in the wild, but now they have offspring. I wonder if they have gotten a third generation yet.

Yes... some folks here are selling the babies as whatever they think will command the higher price tag - no matter if it is a cross of some sort.

I just came across another mix... the guy told me he breeds each female to several males (he has 2 very different species). The offspring pics show the crossed results.

Morgana

Have you seen the solid black and albino easterns?

Solid Black Bluey????

Do you know of any pics?
Scott

Scott,

Yes - solid black!!!! Really beautiful too. The albinos are very nice too - wouldn't mind getting a chance to work with either.
Yes, there are pictures. I have included the link. Enjoy... and keep a towel handy to catch the drool like I do. *LMAO*

~Morgana
Snake Ranch in NSW Australia