Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've noticed that other people who are into other types of animals (dogs, cats, rabbits and so on) have organizations than cater to them and that all the breeders of those animals belong to. Why aren't there such organization like those for us herpers, something which we would each belong to and could show off with pride. I'd get a tattoo of the club's emblem myself...but that's just me. Maybe I will start such an organization myself...Anyhow...your insight will be appreciated (provided it's positive, lol).

Provided it's positive? What's that supposed to mean? Are you trying to start something? LOL, just kidding. Actually, there are herpetological societies all over the place. You may even have one in your area.

Well, with all those organizations trying to end the keeping of reptiles in captivity, and all those people who don't know about reptiles and think they are bad, I think it would be helpful. I might start the first organization, or might not, depends if someone beats me to it, it would be ok if they did. The small organizations that cater to certain people in a given area do just that, cater to people only in a given area. I was referring to an organization that caters to all the people in the US. An organization where all the reptile breeders are part of, it would help because then we would have a unified voice to express our opinions about all those new laws and such.

That does sound like a good idea, to give reptile breeders some more political power. As long as it is a non-profit group, that cares about the reptile industry and reptiles as a whole, and not just making an extra buck. But who would start it? And how do you even go about starting a big organization like that?

But each state has it's own laws or regulations. Also, where would you hold meetings for a "nationwide" organization? I believe that chipping away at the anti-herpers with the smaller organizations (city, state?) is more realistic.

I remember this one time one of the major airlines decided that it would stop transporting certain breeds of dogs because they considered them "dangerous", the organization for the dog breeders (I forget which one it was, AKC maybe), they explained their case to the airlines and now they can ship their dogs again, wouldn't it be great if we could do that? with all the limitation on shipping herps now in day I thinkit's necessary, the other day a USPs post office refused to ship my tortoises because they clamed they had been purchased by FedEx and adopted their no live animal policy, I never heard about that, did you?

I don't ship snakes so I'm not that familiar with the regulations. I do think some regulations are necessary, but nowadays it seems the Feds are getting carried away. Unfortunately, as long as "wreckless" herpers who give us all a bad name in the eyes of non-herpers exist in the business, there will always exist a pursuit of bans and restrictions on the entire herp community.

Sure, the smaller organizations help, but there is also a need for a major organization...all the other breeders have a major organization and then smaller organizations. As to how this could become true, I am not sure. I would like to see kingsnake.com try and do this. They could have like a list that listed all the members from each state (all the breeders from that state and what they bred) like the organizations for the other animals do, I don't believe they should charge because if you ask me, they make enough money already, the other organizations don't charge for classifieds or posting the breeder's contact info or website in the state they operate out of. If they charge a little it would be ok, but their rates right now are too high if you ask me. Anyways, kingsnake would be good. Let me know what you think.

...but perhaps for reasons other than those that have been brought up so far. I'm not a breeder, but I can see where a national breeders organization could become not only desirable but necessary in the near future.

Debate rages on regarding the moral aspects of creating various morphs and hybrids through selective breeding. The debate iself doesn't really interest me. What does interest me, though, is the prospect of obtaining a pure specimen of a given species, or perhaps a specific bloodline, if I in fact wanted to obtain such a specimen. We often read stories on these forums involving those who have obtained a herp and end up not being quite sure of exactly what they ended up with. A vast majority of breeders do in fact keep very good records of genetic traits, lineage, etc., which is very good. But I think we can all see where this is going eventually.

If a dog lover wants a German Shepherd - a bonafide purebreed German Shepherd - they'll get one that has certified papers, usually from the AKC or some other formal breeders' organization that can certify that this particular animal is exactly what they say it is. The time will come when someone who wants a full-blooded herp, e.g., "true" Florida Kingsnake, might need to get one with papers. Otherwise, what with all the hybridization, interbreeding, etc. going on, there may be no way to determine whether a particular "Brooksi" specimen is really a true L. g. floridana, or some intergrade/hybrid. The time will come when no one will be able to tell for sure just by looking.

So if and when the time comes for the need to "paper" herps, to certify certain bloodlines or whatever, who's going to do it? The National Herpetocultural Organization will (or whatever it ends up being called).
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MichaelB

In all reality JeffB did . It was called the NRAAC .

Kevin
NAROA

There have been attempts in the past to form these types of organizations. NRAAC comes to mind right away. I can think of two organizations that might suit your needs that currently exist.

The Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council (PIJAC, www.pijac.org) is a well established national pet lobbying group. PIJAC represents pet stores and others in the industry and are well known in the industry. They do not represent only herp interests, but they do try and defend against lawas against herps since it does affect the pet industry

The National Amphibian and Reptiles Owners Aliance (NAROA, www.naroa.info) is a grass roots organization. NAROA is still small but is dedicated. I don't think they have much pull in the national arena yet, but I know they were participating in Chicago with the proposed ban there. They are not big yet but could grow one day.

As previous people have mentioned, your local herp society is a great place to start. I've always thought that some national organization of herp societies would be benificial. This way you are tapping into the built in organization of local herp societies to fight local or regional issues and still have the full force of members of all herp societies for national issues. The problem is that no such organization exists at the momment.

Any new organization is going to need money. Raising money through memberships (and ideally organizational memberships that could cough up a relatively large amount of money) is probably the best way to do this. If you expect people and organizations to spend money on a membership you are going to have to offer something in return. Something like a newsletter with legislative alerts and other articles or an annual conference with known and respected speakers. Obviously this would consume a ton of time, some startup cash, and you would need help from many volunteers to get it off the ground. It's not a task for the faint hearted.

Well, I'm done rambling on this subject. Whatever you decide, good luck to you.

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A.J. Sokolik
asokolik@wnyherp.org
Western New York Herpetological Society

I think that we as herpers could form some common ground amongst all the societies but first there needs to be some formal rules set between all societies. In college I joined a herp society that was composed mostly of hobbyist, then here came the biology activists that frowned on keeping herps. Before too long I was being treated as a criminal for housing reptiles so I stopped attending meetings. If we could form some king of org. or have some existing org. promote or govern all societies at a fee that could be used for lobbying at the federal political level (In which I have heard that a three minute conversation could cost in the upper thousands) we could protect our rights. The truth is that until we join together we are going to continue to lose our rights.
One last thought is that we as herpers need to be responsible with out reptiles, meaning that its not a good idea to keep a 15 foot retic in the room next to the newborn baby’s crib. Every time that an incident occurs we are that much further in the hole. Please don’t ridicule me for my thoughts, I’m just trying to help brainstorm.

So in esence your local herp society became a group of antis ? Would that be on the mark ? Why not get a group of hobbyist to start a new group in your area . Its worth a shot .

Kevin
NAROA

AJ take a look at the updates on our site . Our Goals and Objectives are back and a couple other things such as a brand new forum board . Also any ideas you might have let me know .
Also look below and see what you think . We do want herp societies to be a part of our group .

Kevin

Herp Lawyer Wanted

No folks I am not in trouble . But I do want to consult a lawyer about setting up a reptile owners defense fund and expense fund for the NAROA . This fund would be used to help herpers pay for legal expenses in cases like Colin Shaw's . The fund would also help in paying for expenses incurred by the NAROA for such things as our web site hosting .

Any money paid out will be posted here on our site and on our Yahoo! Groups list so everyone who donates will see exactly what the money is being used for plus a monthly budget and account balance .
NAROA

The reptile community is the best in the world! There are tonnes of herp clubs/societies around the US,Canada and the world. Excluding people who arn't classified as "breeders" would be a step backwards. The dog kennel clubs and bird clubs ect, all tend to be kinda of hoity toity and self rightous, where the average pet owner is not.
I do agree that some organizations are better than others and appear in a more positive light among the public. A nation-wide society is a huge idea and would be hard to manage;... I may suggest that it would be easier and more efficient to encourage a union of all current clubs. It would be important to keep each club's identity, however an umbrella could ensure that their voice is louder so to speak.
A perfect example is the AAHA. The American Animal Hospital Association does not own all of it's member veterinary clinics, however it ensures that they all produce generally the same high standards of vet med. Because of what it represents, the AAHA has a huge voice within the public and government.
Cheers to a great idea, with encouragment for all to join their local club's executive and maybe push for a nationwide, global collaboration.
Ian Kanda, AHT, Editor for the ERAS newsletter.

This idea is exactly like I had in mind. Something where current societies can join to band together. Benefits could include better lobbying, a free news exchange (articles that could be reprinted in local newsletters), annual confrences, etc. In this wonderous time of electronic communication it would be fairly easy communicate with different people across the country.

Since something like this doesn't exist getting it off the ground would be a huge undertaking that would require a ton of effort (and possibly some money). In the long run I think it would probably pay off. I know that for something like this I'd be willing to help out, but we would really need to have a couple of groups buy into it from the start to help get something like this moving and to add legitimacy to encourage more participation from other herp societies. As I've said before this organization would only work by collecting membership dues from other organizations. If we collect money then we would have to offer something worthwhile in return that would make the dues worth it.

So ends my $0.02 worth of rambling.

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A.J. Sokolik
asokolik@wnyherp.org
Western New York Herpetological Society

Take a look at some of the updates I made on the website AJ . Our Goals and Objectives are back up as well as my statement encouraging herp societies to join us . Also any ideas you have let me know . We also have a new Forum board up and running . Plus this on our news letter page .

Herp Lawyer Wanted

No folks I am not in trouble . But I do want to consult a lawyer about setting up a reptile owners defense fund and expense fund for the NAROA . This fund would be used to help herpers pay for legal expenses in cases like Colin Shaw's . The fund would also help in paying for expenses incurred by the NAROA for such things as our web site hosting .

Any money paid out will be posted here on our site and on our Yahoo! Groups list so everyone who donates will see exactly what the money is being used for plus a monthly budget and account balance .

Kevin
NAROA

AJ take a look at the updates on our site . Our Goals and Objectives are back and a couple other things such as a brand new forum board . Also any ideas you might have let me know .
Also look below and see what you think .

Kevin

Herp Lawyer Wanted

No folks I am not in trouble . But I do want to consult a lawyer about setting up a reptile owners defense fund and expense fund for the NAROA . This fund would be used to help herpers pay for legal expenses in cases like Colin Shaw's . The fund would also help in paying for expenses incurred by the NAROA for such things as our web site hosting .

Any money paid out will be posted here on our site and on our Yahoo! Groups list so everyone who donates will see exactly what the money is being used for plus a monthly budget and account balance .
NAROA