Reptile & Amphibian Forums

On most of the snake forums that cater to the hobbyists, there is an obsession with odd colored or designer animals. With this obsession, dare I say for some a fetish, comes inbreeding and unnatural crosses in the quest for an unfit animal (by unfit, I mean an animal that because of its coloring could not survive in the wild) that will catch the imagination and the wallet of other hobbyists with the same fetish.

I have nothing against unusual colored snakes. Leucistic snakes, while totally unfit, are some of the most visually striking animals. I can understand why a person would want one. I am breeding amel GPRS myself. Where I have the problem is with the neophyte hobbyist breeding unwanted, unnatural or unfit animals that end up in the wild. Especially with snakes, escapees are common. There is also the problem of unwanted former pets being released into the wild. For those of you who think I am being an alarmist, just remember that they are finding pythons in the Everglades.

I don’t want to tell people what to do. What I want is for people to investigate the market for what they are breeding before they put two animals together. I don’t want to see unwanted snakes the way there are unwanted dogs and cats, and I never want to see these animals released into the wild to pollute the naturally occurring gene pool.

Any snake released back into the wild risks introducing a virus or some other unwanted nasty into a population of snakes so your point is moot. When it comes to genetics the introduced gene from a captive that most likely would not survive would be lost over a short period of time. A good example is the Red Wolf in Texas. They have naturally hybridized with the Coyote but they now are going extinct. They are the minority population and from a taxonomists point of view will be pure coyotes in short order. Hence a single released specimen from a designer snake will not in any way shape or form influence a wild population . It is contaminating the population with an exotic virus from Africa that will do the damage. Your view is mis-directed it should be that once you make a decision to keep a snake you are in it for the long haul or stick um in the freezer if no one wants them
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

...of the breeding into other populations and disapearing is the spotted owl.

A friend who worked for forestry and other groups in their range used to beat his head against a wall at all the misleading publicity because he saw the spotted hybrids in huge numbers but they could not be included in the population surveys.

just thought would go slightly OT for a second there

Sean.

Sean, I think our posts are to logical and level headed. Maybe we aught to put some emotion into our threads? Maybe tell elephen he whines too much, get the blood flowing? I kinda like draybar’s approach I can feel the anger and emotion as he pounds the keys on his computer. This forum needs some blood once in a while to keep me interested! Posting for me is like therapy, and saves me from having to spend money at in a shrinks office. By the way my wife found the snake I lost in the car. I had to go pick her up since she refused to drive the car after she saw the snake. Now I have to add marriage counseling to psycho therapy kind of a vicious cycle. I can also envision some depression after elephen slams me on line for calling him a whiner or weiner!
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

That is just not true. If you release a female into the wild, 100% of her offspring will carry her mtDNA. All females produced by her will pass along that mtDNA to 100% of their offspring, and so on.

In S. Florida, Cuban Anoles have become established with consequences that have yet to be seen. Mediterranean Geckos are spreading across the south. It only takes one female with fertilized eggs to get the ball rolling so to speak.

While it may not in the long run hurt anything if a stray E. o. ssp gets released into another ssp’s range (as you said the traits get breed out over time), the idea still offends me.

In Virginia, we have both Yellow and Red Eared Sliders. Back in 1900, we only had one type. Because of the dime store pet trade, what nature produced over tens of thousands of years, has been changed forever. Call me paranoid, but I would hate to see something like that happen to the snake population here or anywhere else.

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is the DNA located in organelles called mitochondria. Most other DNA present in eukaryotic organisms is found in the nucleus. Nuclear and mitochondrial DNA are thought to be of separate evolutionary origin, with the mtDNA being derived from the circular genomes of the bacteria that were engulfed by the early ancestors of today's eukaryotic cells. In the cells of current organisms, the vast majority of the proteins present in the mitochondria (numbering approximately 1500 different types in mammals) are coded for by nuclear DNA, but the genes for some of them, if not most, are thought to have originally been of bacterial origin, having since been transferred to the eukaryotic nucleus during evolution. In mammals, all mtDNA in a zygote is inherited solely from the mother, and this holds true for most other organisms as well.

Currently, human mtDNA is present at 100-10,000 separate copies per cell, with each circular molecule consisting of 16,569 base pairs with 37 genes, 13 proteins (polypeptides), 22 transfer RNA (tRNAs) and two ribosomal RNAs (rRNAs).

Contents [hide]
1 Use in identification
2 Origin of mitochondrial DNA
3 Mitochondrial inheritance
3.1 Female inheritance
3.2 Male inheritance
4 Genetic influence
4.1 Genetic illness
5 See also
6 References
7 External links

[edit] Use in identification
Unlike nuclear DNA, whose genes are rearranged in the process of recombination, there is usually no change in mtDNA from parent to offspring. Because of this, and the fact that the mutation rate of mtDNA is higher than that of nuclear DNA and is easily measured, mtDNA is a powerful tool for tracking matrilineage, and has been used in this role for tracking the ancestry of many species back hundreds of generations. Human mtDNA can also be used to identify individuals.

[edit] Origin of mitochondrial DNA
Endosymbiotic theory suggests that eukaryotic cells first appeared when a prokaryotic cell (a bacterium) was absorbed into another cell without being digested. These two cells are thought to have then entered into a symbiotic relationship forming the first organelle. This organelle would eventually become today's mitochondrion, and the genome of that first absorbed bacterium would have given rise to today's mitochondrial DNA as evolution progressed.

[edit] Mitochondrial inheritance

[edit] Female inheritance
Mitochondria are normally inherited exclusively from the mother. The mitochondria in mammalian sperm are usually destroyed by the egg cell after fertilization.Also, most mitochondria are present at the base of the sperms tail, used for propelling the sperm cells, and this tail is lost during fertilization. In 1999 it was reported that paternal sperm mitochondria (containing mtDNA) are marked with ubiquitin to select them for later destruction inside the embryo.[1] Some in vitro fertilization techniques, particularly injecting a sperm into an oocyte, may interfere with this.

The fact that mitochondrial DNA is maternally inherited enables researchers to trace maternal lineage far back in time. (Y chromosomal DNA, paternally inherited, is used in an analogous way to trace the agnate lineage.) This is accomplished in humans by sequencing one or more of the hypervariable control regions (HVR1 or HVR2) of the mitochondrial DNA. HVR1 consists of about 440 base pairs. These 440 base pairs are then compared to the control regions of other individuals (either specific people or subjects in a database) to determine maternal lineage. Most often, the comparison is made to the revised. Vilà et al have published studies tracing the matrilineal descent of domestic dogs to wolves. The concept of the Mitochondrial Eve is based on the same type of analysis, attempting to discover the origin of humanity by tracking the lineage back in time.

Because mtDNA is not highly conserved, and has a rapid mutation rate, it can be used in phylogenetic study. Biologists sequence a few selected genes across different species, and they can build an evolutionary tree depending on how conserved or divergent the sequences happen to be.

[edit] Male inheritance
It has been reported that mitochondria can occasionally be inherited from the father [2] in some species such as mussels. Paternally inherited mitochondria have also been reported in some insects such as the fruit fly[2] and the honeybee.[3]

Evidence supports rare instances of male mitochondrial inheritance in some mammals as well. Specifically, documented occurrences exist for mice,[4][5] where it was subsequently rejected. It has also been found in sheep,[6]and in cloned cattle. [7] It has been found in a single case in a, human, male and was linked to infertility[8]

While many of these cases involve cloned embryos or subsequent rejection of the paternal mitochondria, others document in vivo inheritance and persistence under lab conditions.

[edit] Genetic influence

[edit] Genetic illness
Mutations of mitochondrial DNA can lead to a number of illnesses including exercise intolerance and Kearns-Sayre syndrome (KSS), which causes a person to lose full function of their heart, eye, and muscle movements. (See also Mitochondrial disease).
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Thank you for a headache
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

>>On most of the snake forums that cater to the hobbyists, there is an obsession with odd colored or designer animals. With this obsession, dare I say for some a fetish, comes inbreeding and unnatural crosses in the quest for an unfit animal (by unfit, I mean an animal that because of its coloring could not survive in the wild) that will catch the imagination and the wallet of other hobbyists with the same fetish.
>>
>>I have nothing against unusual colored snakes. Leucistic snakes, while totally unfit, are some of the most visually striking animals. I can understand why a person would want one. I am breeding amel GPRS myself. Where I have the problem is with the neophyte hobbyist breeding unwanted, unnatural or unfit animals that end up in the wild. Especially with snakes, escapees are common. There is also the problem of unwanted former pets being released into the wild. For those of you who think I am being an alarmist, just remember that they are finding pythons in the Everglades.
>>
>>I don’t want to tell people what to do. What I want is for people to investigate the market for what they are breeding before they put two animals together. I don’t want to see unwanted snakes the way there are unwanted dogs and cats, and I never want to see these animals released into the wild to pollute the naturally occurring gene pool.

Just because you don't want them, that does not make them unwanted in the hobby.
There is a pretty darn good market for my MUTT creams, stripe creams, motley creams and cinnamons.
It doesn't matter if it is an odd morph, mutt or "pure" snake (if there is such a thing). NONE should go into the wild. Any can have an impact on wild populations. NOT just mutts.
People need to be responsible, absolutely no doubt about that but just because YOU don't agree with hybrids or intergrades or mixes that doesn't make breeding them irresponsible.
Remember a few years back? Emoryi was a sub species of corn.
If that taxonomy would have remained the same there wouldn't be a problem with that mix. But NOOO, all of a sudden snakes that have been bred together for years became hybrids. What do you propose? kill them all? If you could differentiate them?
Now there is talk (hopefully only talk) about lumping the rat snakes together. Black, grey, yellow and everglades could all be lumped together. Would what we consider mutts now, grey/yellow, black/Texas, yellow/everglades all of a sudden become just different looking specimens of the same species?
What is it? Eastern, Midland, Western? something like that.
what was simply a black rat from Virginia bred to a black rat from Missouri, to give you black rats, would now be considered intergrades or if you go by the strictest definition, they could never breed in the wild due to location, so that would make them hybrids. But a black rat bred to a grey rat in ranges where they may overlap would now be considered a non hybrid?
They can't be THAT different if they can breed so easily producing viable young that can breed successfully to either parent species and also produce viable young.
With some of these changes being proposed the next thing you know all those "evil" Texas rat/black rat leucys would all of a sudden be fine. After all they will be the same species. That is if there is any part of their range where they could overlap. Not sure about that without looking at maps but you get my point.

You talk about these snakes being unfit and yet there are plenty of these "unfit" snakes living well over twenty years. Doesn't sound too unfit to me.
Do you have TRUE scientific evidence that my snow corn is any less fit then my normal corn or that the wild caught corn I have will out live all of my other corns under the same conditions because they are all obviously unfit due to their colors or patterns? And using "because it couldn't live in the wild" as your definition of unfit just doesn't wash.
These are captive animals. They are not for the wild.
Yes some captives escape but if they are as unfit as you say then they obviously couldn't have an impact on the wild now could they? They would be too unfit to live wouldn't they?

Now, Remeber this is a debate..a debate.. a discussion..
If you start cursing me and getting that same attitude you did in that thread the other day I'm sure we can talk someone into deleting it before it goes as far as that one did.

just some of my thoughts. As rambling as they are.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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Hey Jim,
You mentioned breeding a Missouri to a Virginia black rat. I've done it, and the offspring are awesome. I had some one year that were difficult feeders and they still grew leaps and bounds faster than some that were more regionally bred. The regionally bred ate alot more consistently.
The results after one year were something like
Regional --------------- 29"
Virginia X Arkansas ---- 38" to 40"

>>Hey Jim,
>> You mentioned breeding a Missouri to a Virginia black rat. I've done it, and the offspring are awesome. I had some one year that were difficult feeders and they still grew leaps and bounds faster than some that were more regionally bred. The regionally bred ate alot more consistently.
>> The results after one year were something like
>>Regional --------------- 29"
>>Virginia X Arkansas ---- 38" to 40"

Were they nice jet black specimens?
I happened to pick those two locales because I thought of specimens I had seen from Virginia and Missouri that were the blackest black rats I had ever seen.
Here I am half way between the two and ours always show pattern and never get as jet black as those.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Hi Garry. Drybar this is our Blackest from Kansas

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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Hey Sight Man,
That's about as black as I've seen them from anywhere. I envy all you guys out there that can just drive down the road from your homes and catch a nice black. Bill, I'll try and call you in the next couple of days.

I want one!

Sighthunter, I'd say that kansas blackrat is about as good as it gets.
On a different note, I don't know if know, or are familiar with Jim Scharosch, but he has a great website on herping in Kansas. Not just Kansas but Iowa and surrounding states as well. Check is site out sometime. Herpjournal.com
Picture of another herper holding a James city county Va. Black Rat. Steve

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SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

Hi Steve,
Do you get a lot of those where you are? I've seen that website your talking about.
Alan,

Nice website, I just took a moment to browse it.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

>>Hi Garry. Drybar this is our Blackest from Kansas
>>
>>

wow looks almost like a big fat black racer....lol
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Here's your MO too! Dirty tank I know

I should have taken some better pics of Molly before I gave her away...
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Jimmy, here's an updated pic of my 06 Virginia Black Rat. She's only a year old and is turning nice & black.

Second photo is a James City county Virginia Black Rat.

>>Were they nice jet black specimens?
I happened to pick those two locales because I thought of specimens I had seen from Virginia and Missouri that were the blackest black rats I had ever seen.
Here I am half way between the two and ours always show pattern and never get as jet black as those
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SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

>>Jimmy, here's an updated pic of my 06 Virginia Black Rat. She's only a year old and is turning nice & black.
>>
>>Second photo is a James City county Virginia Black Rat.
>>
>>
>>
>>

that's what I mean. You guys have some nice BLACK rats on either side of me.
Ours are nice but a deep black specimen would be nice.
This guy pictured below looks pretty dark in the photos and was a very nice specimen but in person the patterning was obvious with the red and white flecking. Like I said he was a beauty but I am surprised at the differences from Tennesse to Virginia on one side and Missouri on the other.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

What might be a fun project, would be to breed those for a couple of generations or so to see if you could get some jet blacks.

Well yeah but you have corns I would die if I could go outside and find corns. But then again I have the emoryi.. Do you have emoryi? That doesn't mean that I have ever found any though
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

The VA specimen had white on the leading edges of the scales where there wasn't a blotch. That set off a visible pattern, but the scales themselves were black. The AK specimen was very uniform colored, but under direct sunlight browned out a little. The hatchlings that I raised retained a fair amount of pattern, but were outcrossed to another diverse bloodline producing offspring about as black as black rats get.
Funny thing. I once bred two, also from different regions (Oklahoma and Virginia if I remember right) neither one of them being anything special. One male turned out exceptionally black. I do have a few more specimens from eastern and western localities that I plan to pair together next Spring, and I'll keep you posted on how that turns out.

"Do you have TRUE scientific evidence that my snow corn is any less fit then my normal corn or that the wild caught corn I have will out live all of my other corns under the same conditions because they are all obviously unfit due to their colors or patterns? And using "because it couldn't live in the wild" as your definition of unfit just doesn't wash."

I defined my term "unfit" so that the meaning would be clear. From the standpoint of natural selection, it works, and natural selection is what I am talking about. There is plenty of evidence to show that your snow corn is less fit. Res ipsa, there aren't any in the wild.

I will repeat myself, I don't have a problem with designer snakes, but I hate to see animals crossbreed by someone who has no idea of what he are doing. As far as blasting the guy in that post below, I gave him a simple answer to his question and then went on to suggest that there would be no demand for a Gray X Texas intergrades and that he might want to get another leucistic Texas Rat and breed them because their offspring would be in greater demand. (A statement that I still think is true.) So, for taking the time to answer his question and to pass along a little advice, since we all knew from his question that he had no idea what he was doing. His response, "Thanks for the info ... Don't tell me what to do." was just rude. So I blasted him, and I don't apologize for doing it.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Rick

If someone makes a simple response/request and then drops the conversation it is not normally considered rude.

Now if he had made an insult and then told you to drop it I would agree with you but someone asking to be left alone( aka "don't tell me what to do" is hardly delivering an insult.

Bottom line keep it to a discussion and we'll all have fun.

Sean.

That smilyface in the previous post was an error from a key combo I didn't realize made a smily.

It should have been closing the parenthasis and ending the sentence.

PS please forgive my spelling.

Sean.

If someone offers advice out of concern, the polite thing to do is to say thank you, or at the very least say nothing. Posting "Don't tell me what to do" IS rude by old school rules.

Hi Fan,
Did you by any chance get my e-mail a few days ago, regarding the hatchlings you just produced?

I am not trying to provoke a confrontation but merely point out why those words in every day conversation are not always, and depending on who talk to only infrequently, rude.

Your comments may have been made out of a concern you held but did not necesarily sound as if they were made out of any concern for the recipients interests.

If they were viewed as you imposing your concerns, or priorities, on the recipient then the response of "Don't tell me what to do" could very well have been a polite/non-confrontation response to drop the topic.

Example would be someone loudly talking about how to keep kids under control when standing arround parents with their children playing/running arround. If one of the parents then quietly, and especially if not looking directly at the person, said "don't tell me how to raise my children" and walked away without a further word it would not be viewed as rude. If anything in that situation the person telling people how to control children would be at risk of seeming uncouth.

Keep in mind I make no claim for the authors thoughts but am merely illustrating possibilities.

Hope this clears up why I was saying that it was not necesarily rude.

PS: This is a prime example of what the uncarefully written word loses in comparison to live interaction. You would not have the miriad of possible interpretations if you had body language and facial expression or even vocal tonation to accompany the words.

Sean.

>>"Do you have TRUE scientific evidence that my snow corn is any less fit then my normal corn or that the wild caught corn I have will out live all of my other corns under the same conditions because they are all obviously unfit due to their colors or patterns? And using "because it couldn't live in the wild" as your definition of unfit just doesn't wash."
>>
>>I defined my term "unfit" so that the meaning would be clear. From the standpoint of natural selection, it works, and natural selection is what I am talking about. There is plenty of evidence to show that your snow corn is less fit. Res ipsa, there aren't any in the wild.
>>
>>I will repeat myself, I don't have a problem with designer snakes, but I hate to see animals crossbreed by someone who has no idea of what he are doing. As far as blasting the guy in that post below, I gave him a simple answer to his question and then went on to suggest that there would be no demand for a Gray X Texas intergrades and that he might want to get another leucistic Texas Rat and breed them because their offspring would be in greater demand. (A statement that I still think is true.) So, for taking the time to answer his question and to pass along a little advice, since we all knew from his question that he had no idea what he was doing. His response, "Thanks for the info ... Don't tell me what to do." was just rude. So I blasted him, and I don't apologize for doing it.
>>
>>Thanks for taking the time to respond.
>>
>>Rick

You didn't really touch on an a few important issues I brought up.

first off it doesn't matter if it is a mutt or "pure" (if there is such a thing) None should go into the wild. Any of them, mutt or "pure" could pose the same dangers to wild populations.
Yes, I know there are dangers but I do not believe rampant hybridization is one of them.

This also ties to another point I brought up that you left out when you quoted me. These are captive animals, they are not for the wild, their ability to survive in the wild is a totally and completely mute point.

And this ties to a bit of inconsistancy in your views. You say they pose a danger to the purity of wild populations (your post didn't strike me as speaking towards possible pathogens) in one part of your argument and then in another you say they are unfit and can't survive in the wild.
If they ARE unfit and COULD NOT survive in the wild how could they pose a danger by poluting the "pure" gene pool.
I'm sorry it just can't be both ways.

You are probably right in the fact that there won't be much of a market for the babies if he does the cross but asking the question does not mean the cross will be done BUT.. you were much more rude (or is it much ruder?) in your response then you seem to remember. MUCH MORE.....LOL

Good topic for discussion
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

"And this ties to a bit of inconsistancy in your views. You say they pose a danger to the purity of wild populations (your post didn't strike me as speaking towards possible pathogens) in one part of your argument and then in another you say they are unfit and can't survive in the wild.
If they ARE unfit and COULD NOT survive in the wild how could they pose a danger by poluting the "pure" gene pool.
I'm sorry it just can't be both ways."

Let me address this by saying that an adult snake will have much fewer predators than a hatchling. So an adult animal that was released that couldn't hide as well as a wild type would have a better chance of staying alive and reproducing, there by artificially increasing the chances of unfit offspring being produced.

We both agree that captive breed snakes should never be released. I also thank you for being honest enough to admit that there is no real market out there for Texas X Gray intergrades.

Part of my argument is based on a philosophical belief that men should strive to avoid impacting natural systems. If one takes the notion that there are not Black, Yellow or Everglades Rat Snakes, then releasing a few healthy Yellows into an area with a population of Black Rats would not hurt a thing. After all, they are all the same species. Just going by Burbrink, there would be no harm done, but I for one find this notion appalling.

While I am not a fan of the new system, i.e., Eastern Rat Snakes etc., I respect the work of Dr. Burbrink and his colleges. Where he argues that there are only three lines of obsoleta that developed in isolation (from mtDNA evidence), I would argue that there are also regional variations that need to be respected as well and taken into account (subspecies?).

What I find even more incredulous about Burbrink's system is that you need to do an mtDNA test on your Yellow Rat Snake to tell if it is an "Eastern Rat Snake." The same goes for Black Rats.

One last thing, if you guys think I was to hard on DONV below, then I will apologize for blasting him. It was immature of me to let the guy's comment get under my skin. He asked a very basic question, and I answered him very respectfully. I also included what I felt was some good advice that he was free to take, ignore, or ask me my reasons behind my opinion. I still think that his response of "don't tell me what to do" was totally uncalled for. If one wants politeness, I think that one should exercise it.

>>"And this ties to a bit of inconsistancy in your views. You say they pose a danger to the purity of wild populations (your post didn't strike me as speaking towards possible pathogens) in one part of your argument and then in another you say they are unfit and can't survive in the wild.
>>If they ARE unfit and COULD NOT survive in the wild how could they pose a danger by poluting the "pure" gene pool.
>>I'm sorry it just can't be both ways."
>>
>>Let me address this by saying that an adult snake will have much fewer predators than a hatchling. So an adult animal that was released that couldn't hide as well as a wild type would have a better chance of staying alive and reproducing, there by artificially increasing the chances of unfit offspring being produced.
>>
>>We both agree that captive breed snakes should never be released. I also thank you for being honest enough to admit that there is no real market out there for Texas X Gray intergrades.
>>
>>Part of my argument is based on a philosophical belief that men should strive to avoid impacting natural systems. If one takes the notion that there are not Black, Yellow or Everglades Rat Snakes, then releasing a few healthy Yellows into an area with a population of Black Rats would not hurt a thing. After all, they are all the same species. Just going by Burbrink, there would be no harm done, but I for one find this notion appalling.
>>
>>While I am not a fan of the new system, i.e., Eastern Rat Snakes etc., I respect the work of Dr. Burbrink and his colleges. Where he argues that there are only three lines of obsoleta that developed in isolation (from mtDNA evidence), I would argue that there are also regional variations that need to be respected as well and taken into account (subspecies?).
>>
>>What I find even more incredulous about Burbrink's system is that you need to do an mtDNA test on your Yellow Rat Snake to tell if it is an "Eastern Rat Snake." The same goes for Black Rats.
>>
>>One last thing, if you guys think I was to hard on DONV below, then I will apologize for blasting him. It was immature of me to let the guy's comment get under my skin. He asked a very basic question, and I answered him very respectfully. I also included what I felt was some good advice that he was free to take, ignore, or ask me my reasons behind my opinion. I still think that his response of "don't tell me what to do" was totally uncalled for. If one wants politeness, I think that one should exercise it.

we actually agree on quite a lot of what you touched on.
And yes your point about an adult having a better chance to survive does help to aleviate the contridiction.
as far as the overall view of hybrids we will probably just have to agree to disagree. But you bring up some good points.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

This may be true for wildcaught adults released shortly after capture. But a captive born adult? Seems to me it would have a very hard time catching prey and avoiding predators. A juvenile has a lot more behavioural flexibility than the average adult, therefore is more adaptable. Better adaptability means better fitness.

True, but is there such a market for pure Texas Ratsnakes of Grey Ratsnakes? Problem is that us hobbyists are always on the lookout for novelties, like the latest morph or some species that only recently has become available.

That's not entirely true. According to Burbrink et al, geographical variation in the mtDNA doesn't fit the distributional pattern of the taxonomically aknowledged subspecies in Elaphe obsoleta. Therefore they question the validity of these subspecies, but they do not question the existance of clinal variation within this species.

According to Burbrink et al, every Yellow Ratsnake belongs to Elaphe alleghaniensis. A Black Ratsnake, on the other hand, could either be E. alleghaniensis, E. spoiloides or E. obsoleta. So if there's no data available on locality, you'd have to sequence it's mtDNA to be 100% sure.

>>According to Burbrink et al, every Yellow Ratsnake belongs to Elaphe alleghaniensis. A Black Ratsnake, on the other hand, could either be E. alleghaniensis, E. spoiloides or E. obsoleta. So if there's no data available on locality, you'd have to sequence it's mtDNA to be 100% sure.

Sort of what I was almost getting at, in my post below. In other words (if you agree with Burbrink's findings), an eastern black rat snake (Elaphe alleghaniensis) from Virginia bred to a western black rat snake (Elaphe obsoleta) from Missouri would produce hybrids, even though both parents might resemble each other closely and phenotypically fit within the description of black rat snake. This cross would be no more pure than the offspring from a Texas rat snake (Elaphe obsoleta) bred to a gray rat snake (Elaphe spiloides) from Mississippi.

If you still agree with the old taxonomy that says Elaphe obsoleta is one species with many subspecies, then the Texas rat and gray rat are just variants of the same species, so would produce intergrades if crossed, but would still be 'pure' Elaphe obsoleta. If we are going to call offspring of animals within the same species hybrids because of difference in appearance of the parents (or common names), then we should also call offspring of animals from distant localities hybrids, as well.

-Toby

That was exactly the point I was trying to make earlier on, in the Elaphefan versus Donv 'discussion' (see thread below). It's good to see at least someone understands my point of view. Thanx for posting.

Best regards,

Herman.

I just have one observation. You say that morphs are "unfit." I assume you make this assumption because an albino would likely never make it to adulthood in the wild due to predation, etc.? So does that mean that albinos and the like are unfit and shouldn't be alive, but a hypomelanistic, hypermelanistic, or anerythristic animal is just fine? It just doesn't sit with me that only "certain" color mutations would be accepted. Especially since there are wild populations of anerythristic animals out there.
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.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Amelanism (albino) also exists in wild anmals... Otherwise we would not have the mutation in captivity. Lots of flaws in in the what is "unfit" for survival theory.

-Toby

Yes but are there actual populations of amelanistic animals? There is a place in Florida where you can go and catch anerythristic corns.... I doubt you could say the same for amels.
-----
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

There is a protected population of all amelanistic Elaphe climacophora near Iwakuni in Japan. According to Schulz (1996), this population was in decline in the 1960's, but a breeding station was founded and approx 400 animals lived there in 1991. I don't know of any other populations of amelanistic snakes. I'm mainly trying to show that while it is a mutation, and certainly not a good trait for a wild animal to have, it still exists in nature - so it is not unnatural. The propogation of amelanistic animals in captivity is an unnatural act, but so is any captive contrived breeding. If you agree with Burbrink, then the black rat snake is three different species now: eastern, midland and western. What about all of the captive contrived populations of black rat snakes? Some definately are not locality specific, and are a mix of genes from different regions. These offspring are about as unnatural as you can get, but are they "unfit" for survival?

-Toby

"I will repeat myself, I don't have a problem with designer snakes, but I hate to see animals crossbreed by someone who has no idea of what he are doing."
.....from articulate guys like yourself.