Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What is the future of Kings in the investment quality animals yet to come and a few that are here as you see in the Ball market they produce something recessive,dom or co-dom and can and should sell in the thousands < > plus range for some thing unique and genetic for what ordinarilly is a 12.00$ animal,remember these are one of a kind in most cases,i still cant believe that a Fl. breeder/ retailer with Balls(snakes too)took a 500$ king and in a year offering it for less than a hundred,for someone like that in the Ball community,woulda stirred a conflict similar to the Daytona Brawl last year

I can't answer that specifically but you know, it is a free market so a guy can sell at whatever price he wants to, I guess.
If he wants to put'em in Craker Jacks boxes, he can do that too, I suppose. It may make his "competition" mad but chances are, he will not be around for the long haul.
Those who are not in it to make money will not. (and usually move on) Those who market their goods successfully possibly will make some $$.
In the end, something is only worth what someone will pay you for it, right?
The honduran milks (like snows) were quickly dropping in price and that one was harder for me to figure than some since they usually do not produce a mess of eggs like other colubrids.
Some breeders I know who had them honestly did not need the $$ and that may have had something to do with it, I don't know.
When talking about the $1000. animals, I wonder, who actually is buying them anyway? They lay-person? Guys I saw forking out $$ for high-end morphs were other breeders, not collectors or average keepers. It seemed to me to be a "closed market" in that respect. Prices should drop as production goes up and demand drops. I think that's normal.
Anyway, I want to see what others say on this topic, I have little to offer.
Interesting.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

"In the end, something is only worth what someone will pay you for it, right?

It all comes down to marketing. Back in 92-94 I was buying Ball pythons in 200 lots and selling them for $20. bucks each. That included all the weird colors that i received within in batch. Then some guy in Atlanta started advertising in the newspaper (pre-intyernet days) naming them things like "clown" I thought the guy was a clown. But ya know what...I was wrong. Boy was I wrong.

Like Tom says on his website,,," making money rules, and if you can make money doing what you thats even better".

Bottom line is I missed the boat making a good living with Ball pythons. Many have these stories of almost success. I remember my dad had a few of them. One time he was offered part ownnership in a business and turned it down. The name of the company was Kodak.

The thing is we have the internet today and things are saturated like never before with new ideas, marketing and advertisiment. Its hard to say where and what the colubrid market will do unless someone comes up with a new and novel idea that has a different approach. New ideas rule. Its so simple when we see them being implimented but so hard to come up with.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I see many people hoping to make money working with animals they love but the effort they put forth is just not enough to get them or their animals the attention they need to be successful.

Some are just shy, some do not put much into writing their ads and have lousy pictures, and some can not refuse offers on their snakes even if it is a fraction of what they ask for them.

Not enough us look too the people who are only just getting prepared to buy their first snake. When browsing forums you will come across "what should I get?" posts from some newbies. Some people have more money than others and some will not be phased by spending a lot of money on pets and others want the cheapest route possible into breeding. Breeders can accomodate both types of people in that aspect. Hets and normals for a tight budget and morphs for the people who seem to have more money to spend.

It seems all colubrids are simple recessive but for a few exceptions. This is an advantage over the Ball Pythons. Early on Python breeders told people looking ot get into money making projects to buy a co dom morph and a bunch of normal females. Many people did and 3 years later 25,000 snakes were down to 5000 and even down to 1000. Colubrids lay a lot more eggs but still, they're more affordable and many feel they're more interesting pets. I oculd talk for weeks about this but in closing I will say this.

Sellers, don't just sell your snakes. Sell yourself in the sense of customer service. Take any problems your customers may have very seriously whether its your fault or not. Make sure people understand the difference between projects for fun and a slight gain in profit and how that is not the same as an investment. Preach patience too, the hobby goes in circles. Sometimes something that is not popular one year may be a very hot item the next and then will fall again over and over. If you love the snakes yourself you won't mind holding onto them. It is a sad fact many people who buy large constrictors realize they got into something they're not capapble of dealing with, colubrids don't often fall into this category. I have made some great friends by helping people who were not customers. Eventually, sometimes years later they became customers. Many of them repeat customers.

There's money to made in every aspect of this hobby from the cheapest snakes to the most expensive and everything in between. It does not happen overnight though! When you finally cross that line and have a nice collection consistently producing you will look back and think it was not that much work or that long of a wait. Two major mistakes breeders make is holding back too many babies and selling their snakes cheap to get rid of them. Ih ave kept back maybe 5 snakes in 7 years. I know guys who keep back more than 5 EVERY year. This works for some, but not until you have a stable business running. There's a very promising future in colubrids, I have an article about it on my site. Some things go wrong and it is discouraging but you have to move on and realize if this was so easy, everyone would be doing it. I have had a great year so far, I have some nice babies...tons of eggs and more to come. However I had no less than 50 slugs and saw 3 or 4 projects I really hoped would come to be this season go in the trash, it's all part of the game. Have confidence, stand by your snakes and be good to customers and treat them like friends. People don't like to give money to stuck up rich folks, and that's what some of the Boide breeders are,.....not all of them by any means...but they're inspiring tales of riches becomes reality for very few people these days. Colubrids are going to be very popular in the next few years, I am glad that's what I am working with. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

again great post tom. i totally agree with your post.

You speak the truth, Tom. I've had a discouraging year myself. This was supposed to be my first year breeding (even though I've hatched plenty of eggs from WC gravid fems). I bought a proven female pueblan and a male (supposedly) thayeri last year. I followed all the steps feeding, brumating and such, but they never would lock up. So now everyone who knows about my hobby is looking at my like I'm stupid, as if I had bought into a get rich scheme that failed. I know that's not the case and I'm getting ready for '08 with a bunch of '06 hondos (including the two het albinos I bought from you in Austin). I tell everyone that this is a hobby that I hope to make SOME money from, but have gotten little positive support from most people.

You're right, too, about taking time with your customers. It really showed when you were selling that little corn to the kid and his mom at the Austin show. People notice that sort of thing, and it makes a difference.

I do hope to make some money from my snakes over the next few years, and I'm having fun so far.

Thanks for the kind words.
First....keep introducing your breeders, I don't give up til August. Matter of fact I was just surprised twice this week with Python eggs while many people are now posting pics of 07 babies.

I have a sister in law who thought I was the only person on earth buying expensive snakes, and that I was being ripped off left n right. HAHAHAHA! There will always be people who will never understand what we are doing in this hobby and they will at times make things awkward for you, just another thing to ignore like people who carry on how there's no money in this biz. Forget them. With patience you will get babies and you will sell them, end of story.

When I first started this whole 5 year plan of becoming a breeder I thought to myself I will be keeping pet snakes anyway, so if I fail I will still enjoy the snakes as pets. I won, I know I am fortunate but patience is a key factor. There are not many businesses that you start making cash immediately and those that do cost a fortune to start.

I listend at the Ball Python symposium at Daytona to a guy who had the difficult task of explaining why Ball Pythons are still a good investment. If i recall correctly he was trying to say many businesses should double their money in SEVEN years. Sounds like a long time, well it is, but the fact is many of us will double our investment in 4-5 years, and that is starting from scratch with raising babies to be your breeder stock. This business has a lot of everything....the good, great, bad, god awful and ugly. Many of us who do the right thing will be very happy with what we get out of the hobby. I know I am and feel that some people I know personally who are doing the right thing and being patient will have their day come, and very soon too. I look forward to that as much as I look forward to my own successes. Hang tough, and be patient, and of course email me if you need anything
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

this is not related to the thread but Mfoux what type of snake is in the second picture?

I bought this snake in Austin last year at a pet store. It was sold to me as a thayeri, but they couldn't give me any more info. I've only seen a few milksnake phase thayeris that look like this one, but he also resembles some ruthveni I've seen. So I posted pics on this forum and on the Mexican forum. The responses I got were split about 50/50. Half said it looked like pure thayeri, the other half believe it is a thayeri/ruthveni cross. This snake is part of a hybrid project, so I don't mind if it is "impure." I was more impressed with his calm demeanor and willingness to ve handled than anything else. He actually seems to enjoy being held. He's one of my absolute favorite pets.

What is the one in the picture you posted? Is it a thayeri?

not a thayeri It's a L.t.gentilis. The reason I a was asking was I have a L.t.gentilis that looks almost exactly like it. What is the brownish/redband count? thanks for the info.

I counted 31 bands/saddles.

Well one difference is reproduction methods you can get kings to double clucth one male can have multiple mates (yes balls can too but usually don't mate with more then 2 before they get tired out. Look at boas animals that reproduce faster will come down in price faster if bred in mass. You can take 3.6 kings & have over 100 offspring in 2 breeding seasons. try that with a ball python group. You can take a morph of boa reproduce a group of those a lot faster then ball pythons but slower then kings. Supply & demand is always a factor. Look at snow hondurans once a few good breeders produced them the price went down quickly because they are easier to breed then snow ball pythons. A king can breed in 3 yrs. if kept right less then that if power fed(which I think is wrong to breed young snakes). Balls take longer to mature so have a longer turn over time. Look at burms same principle they can be produced fast so a breeder is soon to be left with mouths he can't or doesn't want to support. The best way to make sure you don't have them is to sell them for less then the competition.

Next big thing might be that solid bronze Brooks, like the one in the classifieds right now!!! How long ‘til this post gets removed?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your right about the crazy new names and one cannot control what others do. This also makes things (prices and morphs) difficult in the market to comtrol. I beleive once people get educated with the brooks and the morphs this won't happen so easily. For instance this year I see a real big interest in Peanut Butter brooks. The first 4 years i had them there was not that much interest. Now that people are more familiar with them people want them. For some reason it takes a few years for people to accept and catch on to them. Personally i have never been this way. I like to get new morphs when they first arrive on the scene.

Here are some pics i took at the Daytona show from "someone elses" table where he labled normal lavenders as SULFUR LAVENDER brooks (Shame , shame!...what people will do to rip off the herp community). This kind of stuff confuses the masses and cheapens the value of a true new morph. If people start banding together and learning what these types of people will get chastised by the herp community... thats what happens in the Ball Python community and we colubrid lovers need to do the same if we are to protect our investment animals.

Here is a pic of a real sulfur lav:

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Not even nice lavenders at that. It amazes me that some people really don't care. The almighty $$$$ takes control over it all.

Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

jeez! what a shame. i never have seen this kind of table display with a false label of morphs. thanks for posting bluerosy.

Wow Rainer, that's a huge difference between a normal lavender and a Sulfur Lavender. Did you say anything to the vendor on those mislabeled "Sulfur Lavenders"? Anyone that purchased those would have made a costly mistake. Ouch!
Thanks for the picture showing what a Sulfur Lavender looks like. I'm still learning these new brooksi morphs myself.
Steve
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SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

i think the penalty box should be enforced,and you fine them one deli-cup display case,that one has a nice finish

when you took that pic or you showed them to me shortly thereafter. I think i remember whose table it was, too.
shameshameshameshameshame!

daveb

I think it all comes down to supply, demand, and over-saturation. I know exactly what snake you are talking about. On top of that, the genetics have been questioned since day one.

When it became difficult to sell brooksi morphs, I knew the brooksi market was heading down the spiral. There were a couple of "BIG BREEDERS" advertising ghost and snow brooksi for $200 ea. but didn't have a single one for sale.....and this is after a season in which they sold for $450-500 ea. At this time, white-sided brooksi were $500 ea. and there were MANY MANY more of those being produced than snows and ghosts combined.

In my opinion, it's bad marketing in most cases. I did what I could when I had my brooksi collection. I sold most of them over the last 2 years and held onto two projects....my sulfurs and my white phase. Even with those I'm considering and end to the era.

Since I've gotten into more chondros, I find myself wanting more chondros. They don't eat much and the poop even less. Not that I'm into this hobby for money, but one chondro equals and entire clutch of kingsnakes.....and in some cases, many clutches of kingsnakes. Don't believe me?.....








And just to stay on topic, here's one of my long term projects.

I give big props to guys like Zenny, Rainer, and Tom. You guys are producing GREAT snakes and your hard work shows. Keep up the great work. I'll always have a couple of brooksi and goini in my collection. You guys inspire!

Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

you should always have one of the king in your collection nice pic of the brooks...what is it?

That king pictured is an ANERY goini X brooksi cross. I did the original breeding about 6 years ago. The outcross turned out better than I expected. It's MUCH better in person. BLUE BLUE BLUE!

Here are a few of my other projects.
White Brooksi
1993

2003

Sulfur Lav 2006

Goini 2004

Just a few projects I've stuck with. I have a couple more, but I need to get new pics. Kings are what got me started and I'll always have a couple around.

Brandon Osborne

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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

nice snakes! thanks for showing. i am still learning some of the morphs stuff. i wish i can have all of your kings!

Brandon,
sounds like you and I have had alot of the same experience and have done a lot of the same thinking...
daveb

I would have to agree Dave. And as soon as I can get the rest of my procrastinating band members to finish our record, I'll send you one. Until then, we'll both have to twidle our thumbs. lol.

Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

B.Osborne please",you said that you had a Axan Goini to start with in this project or was it from the brooks.regards Chris

Huh? I've always been up front about my male being a cross. I've never said I had a pure axanthic goini.

Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

wow that was fast ,btw i didnt mean to say that! in your previous post you said you achieved that Axan cross by breeding an Axanthic goini x brooksi if i recall ? Thanks Chris

so i thought this a an F1 outcome?

No, this is actually an F2 outcome....but I have an F3 female from last year that looks more floridana. The original breeding was an axanthic/anerythristic brooksi to a patternless female goini. I guess I should place brooksi in front of goini when labeling these. I only used the goini term in front because it resembles them more. I also switched the term axanthic to anerythristic because I believe that they are not just axanthic. ALL of the animals I've produced from the project have been very red/orange. I'll stand behind my beliefs just as I did nearly 10 years ago, when folks denied the term ANERYTHRISTIC for brooks kings...and btw, sorry to ramble away from the original subject. lol.

Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

axanthic/anery i have not seen a brooks with yellow and no red and red with no yellow ,Uh-oh except the yellow hypo brooks.
and what about astaxanthin thats a red algae not yellow as a xanophore may define.AHHHHhhhh.
now what do we call a yellow hypo with no red AHhhh

Simple misunderstanding. The two names can be interchanged. Brooksi X goini or goini X brooksi.....with anery in front. I'm not really sure how to label them without misleading anyone.

Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Definitly not trying to get on your case or anything so I will qualify my statement by saying that I totally believe you are honestly representing your snakes. With that said the way I would do it is to attach the morph type to the species it came from and just to be double sure people understand put the word "normal" in front of the species it was crossed with. Example: anery brooks X normal goini.

I would like to hear it, give me some phone numbers and I will start pestering some people.

btw, I kept back a '06 hatchling male from a white phase x hypo clutch I had last year. I think he's going to be a smoker but only time will tell. If he achieves that status, I'll post some pics. I wasn't considering it at the time, but maybe I should have kept a female back too. oh well...

Remember over the years some of those "discussions" with former forum members about anerythristic vs axanthic? holy mackerel, I thought my monitor was going to melt. I will be interested in seeing other anery brooks x goini hatchlings that display bands, aberrant pattern as well as stripe!

daveb