Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Posted by: Damon Salceies at Sat Jun 30 23:34:25 2007

"It's not a "secret organization". It's a group of like-minded people trying to organize in private and find ways to best lobby the powers that be in order to try and find a solution that best addresses THEIR issues, not the issues of ALL stakeholders."

Posted by: swwit at Sun Jul 1 10:26:55 2007

"This talk about Hilderbran is exactly what Joe referred to in a post below. He asked for it to Stop. "

What is this BS? You guys come on here asking for everyone to sit back and be quiet so you can work towards your OWN agendas? No way!! If this "secret" group is not going to work towards "everyone's" agenda then don't ask for "everyone" to be quiet!

This secret group is formed and they come on here saying we don't really care what everyone wants, but please don't blow it for us by posting your opinions. Yeah, whatever! If this "Private group" is not going to work towards everyone's agenda, then don't expect everyone to be quiet!

There are a lot of people on here willing to jump in and help fight this thing, but only if "all" voices are heard. If we unite as one instead of trying to accomplish our own agendas, we could make a change without allowing anyone to stop us.

Hobbyist or Commercial collector, we are all in the same fight, to restore our rights to road cruse. We should not have to compromise to get this done. With all the parties involved and all the money we could pull together, we could make changes without sitting down with the people that stabbed us in the back in the first place!

There are already permits in place to suite everyone. There was mention of a more expensive permit for those that want to commercially collect, Texas already has a commercial collectors permit, and a non game permit for those that want to have over their normal limit of animals, and a regular hunting license for those that just want to collect one or two.

We shouldn't be fighting for anything, but our right to road cruse, or an exemption from the law for reptile hunters period! Or changing reptiles to be governed under a fishing license. The only reason HH and his crew want to talk is because they are concerned about the damage we can do if we "unite."

But we can only do it IF we Unite!

Sorry but I don't agree. the people we've spoken to in TPW, as well as a couple I've personally communicated with, have indicated that commercial collecting on Texas roads is not on the negotiating table. Legislators are even more vehement. If we hold out for this, we're dead in the water. One has only to look at what's happening in other states to see the writing on the wall. Most don't allow ANY commercial trade in native herps. Some, such as Geurgia, have truly draconian bans on even the KEEPING of native reptiles by private individuals!

It's astounding to me that, under these conditions, and given that we live in a state with relatively liberal regulations UP TO NOW, there are some who are dead set against our attempts to develop a more positive and proactive relationship with TPWD.

I say again-those with an interest in commercial trade in wild caughts should organize and deal with TPW seperately. If you don't, you may wind up with another situation like New York (where the commercial capture/sale of native reptiles and amphibians is illegal).

Brad Chambers

How frickin' clear does it have to be? THAT is CRYSTAL clear, right on, Brad!
Todd Hughes
-----
Todd Hughes

Todd, If it was so "fricken clear" as you put it, we wouldn't have any reason to wonder about the agenda of the group who won't make there intentions public.

It has taken time to put this thing together, you will have your answers soon enough, I wonder how fast you or anyone else here can/will accomplish what is happening. Good luck on your own or be a little patient and see for yourself, it will be made known, and why would you join something without looking it over first?
Todd Hughes
-----
Todd Hughes

Brad, no were in my post did I say I condoned commercial collecting, I was merely try to make a point and that is that we should put our differences aside to fight the new laws. Once that is accomplished, then we can sperate our differences.

As long as we bicker amongst ourselves over who is right and who is wrong and stay divided, we will not accomplish anything! And As long as a select few are going to fight for there own agenda and not the agenda of the masses, They will not have my support. I will not support a cause that will not show it's cause!

It is not bickering when two groups have seperate goals and values. I urge you to read the entire thread below. The organization is supporting the consensus agenda of the hobbyist community, arrived at over the last few months through almost endless discussion on these forums.

As Todd stated below, it's unreasonable to expect hobbyists to throw themselves on the grenade for commercial interests. And I, as well, I think, as most private herpers, will not support such a course of action.

Brad Chambers

the thing about the grenade lol.....

Brad

Hey, I'll say it too! I won't throw myself on THAY grenade, lol! Damon makes good sense, has been there for years, seen it come and go. I will take experience over youthful exuberance every time!
Todd Hughes
-----
Todd Hughes

I never asked anyone to be quiet. If those interested in forwarding an agenda that supports commercial collection want to share their views and organize in that regard that's wonderful. The whole arm-folded ducklip posture about not being included in a lobby that doesn't support commercial concerns anyway seemed crazy to me. I understand that commercial collectors have much to lose and that they don't want hobbyists bartering what they see as their right to collect and sell wildlife, but also understand that hobbyists don't want to lose all access to the recreation and experiences surrounding the tradition of road hunting while trying to save someone else's interest in financial gain. You can't ask them to fall on the commercial collector's grenade.

Like it or not there will have to be a concession due to the reasons Brad has already outlined. Commercial collection is a non-starter as far as the legislator and enforcement are concerned.

Damon, Again I will state no were in my post did I say I was for, or condoned commercial collecting. It was about uniting as a whole group to fight.

I think you guys are so blinded by your own hate for commercial collectors that your putting that ahead of everything else. This not about commercial collectors, but your turning it in to that. This is about our right to cruse the roads. Again, I will not support a cause or a group who is fighting if I don't know what they are fighting for and continue to hide their agenda.

No one is hiding ANYTHING. If you will just go back and read through the posts of folks like Joe Forks, LBenton, RPalaez, Antelope, myself, and many, many others, you'll have a perfect idea of what's being done and supported!

And none of us have a HATRED of commercial take-most of us have sold wild caught animals ourselves! But the fact is that our sources assure us that if we hold out for that, we lose. And we're not going to sacrifice our hobby for the sake of others' financial gain!

Brad Chambers

Brad, There is a lot being hidden. I have followed this since the start. and all I keep seeing are post about things being done behind the scenes, and this and that, and private forums and passwords, but no were, no were has anyone come right out and said exactly what is being proposed and fought for, or what will be accepted.

Yet, they jump on here and ask for everyone cooperation and consideration. Why should we give consideration when non is being given back? Also what about unity and allies? Everyone hates roundups with a passion, including myself, but I seem to remember some posts in the beginning that people were willing to put differences aside since there was talk they may be one of our biggest allies in the fight.

All my post was about was unity in the fight and putting differences aside for a cause and the only thing people seem to be able to focus on is "commercial collectors".

You speak the truth. They have been secretive and elitist.

Do you know how many people we could bring together with a reasonable, considerate, inclusive group of stakeholders?

Enough to put politicians out of office. Enough to get ALL the laws and regs we want or don't want. We need to unite to fight the BS not have secretive groups that go in and say, "This is what I will give up to have what I want back Mr. TPWD." We could own TPWD just like the game hunters do.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

>>>Do you know how many people we could bring together with a reasonable, considerate, inclusive group of stakeholders?

Not enough to present a credible threat to TPWD or the legislature at large. We are jsut a tiny sliver group. We can probably oust HH if he stabs us in the back again, but that is because of his TACTICS, not his position.

We can defeat this ban and implement herp and herper friendly regs ONLY if we can convince Austin that we are pro herp and can offer better plans than theirs to protect native herps and habitat.

.

No, we couldn't-not even close. There's a couple million of them, and a few thousand of us (at best, if you count out-of-staters).

Brad Chambers

This would have been all well and good...

BEFORE HB12 PASSED!

They're looking to reclaim ground, not defend it. In the beginning they were looking for help EVERYWHERE they could get it. Now they're relegated to finding compromise in the hopes that something, if anything, might change. I'm sorry if you feel the hobbyists are throwing you under the bus here, but I can understand them not wanting to risk losing the opportunity to observe and very rarely collect a specimen on a public right-of-way just so commercial types can make a few extra bucks!

It's your grenade.

Getting together en masse, having a kum-bay-ya "I'd like to teach the world to sing" moment, creating an all-vested-party unified front and marching into the roundhouse in Austin isn't going to fix the problem. The commercial thing is a non-starter. THE LAW HAS ALREADY PASSED. There will be no concessions made to anyone if commercial collection is espoused as a platform.

You say:
"It does NOT have to be the "secret" organizations way."

No. It doesn't. I hear a door opening to an opportunity to represent your own ideas. Of course, Thomas Edison said "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."

You say:
"Most hobbyists I know don't see it the way the "secret" organization does."

operable words there being "hobbyists you know". Also, out of curiosity, how exactly would you know how the "secret" organization sees it... I mean what with it being "secret" and all?

You say:
"Your group is a splinter organization that 1) does not represent all hobbyists

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO. IT CAN ACT SOLELY IN IT'S OWN INTEREST. FREEDOM WORKS THAT WAY.

"2) is very naive to think that you will get what you want"

And you somehow think you will if everyone gets together and there are no "secrets"?

"3) don't realize there are hundreds of other options then to just give in to PETA and academia.

What? Who said this?

There is NO LAW AGAINST SELLING WILD CAUGHT HERPS!!!!!!!!

If you think they will let you recreationally collect then you are living in a fantasy world.

Hey Damon,

All my herps are captive born, okay? Do you get it?

You guys are almost not worth wasting my time on.

Mike Welker
EL Paso, TX

>>>You guys are almost not worth wasting my time on.

Please don't stop.

The continued arguements are probably helping us convince many in Austin that hobbyist herpers REALLY are in favor of herp conservation and against herp exploitation.

And all kidding aside, many of your points will help us consider issues and loopholes that we may otherwise miss. It is very good for us (and Austin) to remember that there are some beneficial aspects of commercial trade (research, education programs, founder animals for recognized breeders).

Mike, you are burning bridges here. Be patient, or when you catch on fire, no one will piss on you to put you out, and I mean that in the nicest way,LOL! Seriously, if you put half the effort organizing your group as you do railing against the "secret society", you'd have a draft of resolutions by now that your group could vote on and have something to show us!
Todd Hughes
-----
Todd Hughes

Mike I respectfully disagree. We could not "own" TPWD and since well over 90% of the "stakeholders" as you say are not even slightly interested in doing any commercial collection whatsoever the other 10% or less that are will probably not help much. Just being honest and if your group can talk TPWD into commercial collecting more power to you, but as for me I see it as a stance that will put everyone in jeopardy.

PS the secret forum was in existence long before HB12 and it was composed of a small group of hobbyists, some of whom happened to take the helm. Every single thing that they has talked about was also talked about here except for specific strategy. If you scroll down you will see that many questions about individuals hunting habits/methods where asked here. The "secret forum" reviewed the answers to those questions posted here and that is the basis for thier stances. There was only two people that I recall that stood up for commercial collection at that time.

Also know that the secret groups official stance will be posted here prior to any resolution and there will be a call for members to join. This group is working very hard and their stance will soon be put up for everyone to discuss. I believe that the vast majority of herpers will find it to be in line with their wishes.

Aaron,

You must think bigger then just the dozen or so gray-band hunters that are active on the forum. There are tens of thousands of people that are involved with herps in TX from the family that has a pet Ball Python to the big breeders like Dave Barker. From the grad student at UT Arlington to the commercail collectors from the panhandle. From the rattlesnake round up folks to the researcher in Canada that needs couchi for research.

I have been involved on this forum since the beginning of all this. And my voice will be heard on all herp matters that affect me in anyway. You can count on that.

Where do you get your figure that over 90% do not want to be involved in commercial collection even a slight bit? That is total crap and you know it. I have sold wild caught snakes to some of the people on this forum so I wouldn't go throwing bogus numbers around when you really don't know. Further, one of your good friends is interested in some animals from my area.

We will see how many folks get involved with the HCU folks. If they support reasonable and fair positions in regards to commercail activity then I will be a member and my positions will be heard. If they do not then I am sure a group will form that has my goals in mind. You might find some of your members jumping ship. I have been in the herp field for over 20 years and believe me there are alot more stakeholders out there than you may think.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Mike I said 90% or more are not interested in doing any commercial collection. Yes there are many people who may be "involved in a slight way" because they have bought a ball python or an anole. Do you think those people would be pro commercial collection if they knew how it could be jeopardizing our rights to captive breed or even keep captive bred herps?
I am not only thinking of Texas grayband hunters. I am thinking of the people in my home state and many others who have seen captive breeding and yes sometimes even mere possesion of native herps outlawed because there is no line between commercial collection and personal collection.

Aaron, we tried, Mike needs to make up his own mind when the time comes, as do all of us. Again, Mike, be patient. No one is deciding anything for you, but I think you should spearhead your own movement, not wait for someone else to do it then jump on the bandwagon. It takes leaders to effect change, go out and put forth the effort and I think you will find Aaron's #'s are pretty close. You may be right in some friends may be interested in some of your animals, but that may change in the near future. I don't see why you can't hold your tongues until there is something for you to talk about. When TPWD puts out their new statement, we will have something else to talk about and when the groups info becomes public you will have more. I am done.
Todd Hughes
-----
Todd Hughes

it's a great idea to put all this stuff, our goals, strategies, what we will or will not accept, out in the open in a public forum that we KNOW our opponents check daily?????

I say again, if you're that worried, email Joe and ask for a password.

Brad Chambers

100% agreed to Brad's and Damon's statements. Fight that battle yourself or wait a bit longer to see if you want to be a part of what will happen anyway, win, lose or draw. This will be good for the hobby and I thought this was a hobbyists forum, not a commercial collecting forum! I have sold a few in my time as well, but there is no reason for ME to do so anymore.
Todd Hughes

-----
Todd Hughes

Ok, this is getting a little silly and out of control. If we can assume that there are two main groups that have been affected by Section 44 (I don’t believe any organization has been set up to oppose Section 43), the commercial collector group and the hobbyist/captive breeder group, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out which agenda is at the forefront of an organization which appears to have been formed by herpers, naturalists and hobbyist/captive breeder types, or am I missing something? Anyway, today is July 1, 2007. Here is a selection of Joe’s posts since June 23, 2007, that I’m reposting now because I think it might help calm people down.

R

Posted by: Joe Forks at Sat Jun 23 09:49:07 2007

Just a couple of notes on organization and TP&W

First on the organization. It's coming very soon, details are being hammered out and new PUBLIC Web site and PUBLIC forum will forthcoming. Watch for details.

I read with interest the need to work WITH TP&W. Of course those comments are spot on but the irony is that the Herp Societies have been working with TP&W on many issues yet on this big one TP&W went right behind our backs without soliciting any input from our Herp societies.

I am trying to get certain individuals from TP&W at the round table for discussion and possible fixes. If we are not successful in getting them to sit down with us, or listen to proposed solutions through our Legislators, then we will have another course of action.

I won't go into detail on that right here or now, but the timing seems to be perfect for what I have in mind.

We still have many courses of action, and I see many good ideas being tossed around here and on the other forum. I also see not so good ideas and a lot of emotion. We need to hold the emotion in check because ranting and cursing will not achieve the desired effect. Neither will blatantly ignoring this "unjust and unfounded" law achieve the desired effect.

The was a bombshell that got dropped on us. Devastating in the short term. Pick-up the pieces and turn this negative into a positive. Make this into the best thing that ever happened to us in the long term. Use this as a stepping stone for a united and actionable organization. The way we conduct ourselves in the coming months will be telling and will dictate our success or failure. I will not accept failure.

Posted by: Joe Forks at Tue Jun 26 18:00:46 2007

We may not get what we want, but for sure we will get what we need. What we needed was a chance to work with TP&WD to come up with guidelines for non-game management and regulations that will work for everyone, Herpers, Ranchers, TP&WD, The General Public, and our Wildlife resources.

Its Chapter 43 of the Wildlife Code, Section 41 of HB12, My bad.

R

I just dont see how you can put Hobbiest and Commercial collectors in the same group. Hobbiest are not out to make money on what we take, we donot take in large quanities, most are in the hobby for the love of it. Show me the similarities. Clark

I have shown over and over again how it is all connected. You guys are living in a fantasy world. I have worked in the zoo field. I have worked for academia and done herp ressearch. I have been a breeder. I have been a collector. I have worked for museums. I have worked for herp dealers. I have worked in a pet store. I have worked in a vets office. You guys are living in a fantasy world and you are OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY.

You will lose your rights by giving in. Wild caughts must be allowed to be sold for captive propagation, research and education. Those of you that don't get that are really, really NOT smart.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

>>>You will lose your rights by giving in. Wild caughts must be allowed to be sold for captive propagation, research and education. Those of you that don't get that are really, really NOT smart.

Every discussion I have seen or participated in about a ban on commercial collecting has included EXCEPTIONS for captive propagation, research and education. The exceptions for research and education are already covered by scientific permits, but could probably use some clarification and expansion. The exception for selling WC to recognized breeders is a little more involved but we should be able to win this exception based on the benefit that it provides by reduding demand for wild animals.

The focus of concerns about commercial trade of WC animals is directed at preventing wild animals from entering the pet trade, skin trade, or food trade. NOBODY is talking about shutting down research or education programs. And, the few in Austin that might want to put up road blocks on captive breeding just haven't been presented with the facts. We can likely win many of them over IF we propose regulations that benefit wild animals.

Daryl,

I think we are pretty much on the same page. But we are not all the people involved in this. If we can work out a way for a private individual to collect and sell wild caught animals for captive propagation, to researchers, zoos, museums and educators maybe even with bag limits I could agree to that.

The only reservations I would have about that is that there are many species that are so, so common that it doesn't make sense to captive produce them and harvest on them is low or non-existent.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

That's COMPROMISE-and isn't that what you've been arguing against, and what we've been insisting on? I'm honestly puzzled here.

Brad Chambers

No dude. I have been arguing several different points. I think we need to approach this like the NRA does NO COMPROMISE even for good laws. Then we sit down and meet in the middle and maybe we get some laws we like out of it. I have always been for bag limits on turtles and any other species that can be easily over exploited.

My main arguement has been don't close the door on commercail harvest by a private person. I am anti over-collection. I am for pet trade species to be CB. I am even for researchers who are going to need a lot of animals to have to use CB. But I am also for qualified privates being allowed to work with Endangered and Threatened species. Anything to help or conserve wild populations.

Animals are displaced all the time by development shouldn't we be allowed to go in and get them before they are killed? What are we going to do with all these displaced animals? We need to be able to sell them so we can cover costs and get them out to homes where they can contribute to the captive "safety net" population.

Have you not been reading my posts completely? I am a herp conservationist but I am also a realist. We don't want bans. Bans are bad. We want good, fair, smart, conservation minded laws. If TPWD can be reasonable I am all for working hard to create model herp regs that we can all be proud of.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Good-now that that's settled let's move on.

Brad Chambers

>>>Animals are displaced all the time by development shouldn't we be allowed to go in and get them before they are killed? What are we going to do with all these displaced animals? We need to be able to sell them so we can cover costs and get them out to homes where they can contribute to the captive "safety net" population.

This is a good example of what I said earlier about you making some points that might help us think about things we (or at least me) might otherwise overlook.

The idea of collecting (even commercially) in immediate advance of large scale developement makes good sense IMHO.

Only, I would have replaced this sentence "We need to be able to sell them so we can cover costs and get them out to homes where they can contribute to the captive "safety net" population." with this, "We should consider allowing them to be collected for the pet trade in order to offset the demand for wild caught animals that might otherwise be collected (legally or illegally) from undisturbed and unthreatend habitat." The result is the same, but the implied intent is conservation and not profit. Any mention of profit or "covering our costs" will close the ears of those we need to listen to us.

I like that but you didn't mention the captive "safety net" population which has to be in place because:

Of development and the fact that we are doing virtually nothing to stop development which is why the animals are displaced in the first place.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Yes Mike, do tell.
-----
Todd Hughes