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Now I figure this will start up and Old discussion that I am TRUELY tired of! But I feel like it needs to be done...

(i must ask though that we be mature here and try to have a discussion as adults so that this post is not removed
~Thanx)

Soooo I Paired up Blaze Phase Goini and Hypo Brooksi female gave me 12 eggs, five of which went bad during incubation period... leaves me with 7 good eggs... one of which went bad on one end but was still fertile.

6 babies emerged! all of which look normal in appearance (carrying the genes for hypo and "Blaze"...)

7th eggs which was bad on one end I slit to find a "BLAZE PHASE"
unfortunately this snake was badly kinked and just died a short while ago...

I'm leaving this open for discussion, some responses I'm SURE I really don't wanna hear but this is the point of a discussion.

Let me state though: I DO NOT believe that Blaze and Hypo the same or are allelic if so I wouldn't get ANY Hets!... is it possible that the "hyperythristic" gene is some how encoded in the Hypo DNA... MAYBE?!

possible my male "flame" is Het Blaze... dunno... don't think so... I would think if he were het I'd see more blaze phase hatchlings but it was a small clutch...

so this pairing will be repeated next season with the same female and I'm gonna try to get my hands on another blaze phase female just to be sure!

Here's the lone blaze produced...

Thanx for looking/ reading

~ZF
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***All New Updated Pix in Gallery***


Royal ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

Zenny
Kinked snakes often times do do fully develope in the egg and develope enough melanin. Thats what i think you have there.

I get this "lack of melanin" from kinked snakes fairly often. I used to have a large collection of rosy boas. These are live bearing snakes and I would get what I thought was the first albino or hypos come out. But there were always kinked and the lack of melanin made them appear as a new morph. This was all before the first albino rosys came along so you can imagine my excitment at that time. I finally figured out that the kinked animals were always the ones with a new reccessive trait. LOL!

Since then i have seen this numerous times on egg laying snakes as well. It almost happens every year. Kinked or dead snakes often times look like something different but all it is is lack of the melanin devoping. If that snake would have lived a couple months it would have been like any normal goini.

Sorry.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I said:

Kinked snakes often times do do fully develope in the egg and develope enough melanin

what I meant was:

Kinked snakes often times that appear fully developed in the egg DO NOT develope enough melanin
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

unfortunately i'm gonna disagree with you on this one... this snake is textbook blaze phase, from the patternless sides as well as the patternless belly to the reduced pattern on the head, to the gray-ish color of the snout, to the eye color it shares with it's mother to the aberrant stripe to the strong orange color it screams blaze phase, in fact it looks identically to those hatchling gulf coast blaze phase goini you posted last yr... (hatchling pic of your adult male to be exact... please post it if you can)

for sure this isn't "suppose to happen" but it did...

mom

hatchling again

Mom as a hatchling

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***All New Updated Pix in Gallery***


Royal ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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TomsSnakes.com

I guess we will never be able to prove if theis snake is a Blaze since it died right away (something that premature, undedevolped snakes lacking pigment do).. if it was just a kink, why do you suppose it died so quickly? Besides the Blaze is a proven reccessive trait just like the hypos.

For sure the white head looks like a Blaze but its just lack of pigment, and that to me is a sign that is is a premature baby. I have had lots of brooks kings coming out seeminly developed in every other way and have a white head. I never took pics of them as I never thought I would need them.

When the snakes born with less pigment thats what happens. The pigment and pattern is effected. I had rosys come out looking exactly like albinos. Then afterward the albino showed up in rosys i had something to compare it to and they looked just like the albinos right down to the red eyes. But they weren't albinos. Something happens in the process of development when a snake is kinked and that something can be less pigment and slowing down the pattern due to a slowing down process of the melanin. Cut open a brooks egg a few weeks early and that will prove to you what I am saying.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

i have seen what rainer is talking about, several times in the past i have had patternless ghost brooksi dead in the egg, never had one hatch out...
keep in mind that all species/ subspecies of getula can and do demonstrate red/orange pigment as hatchlings, even normal phase brooksi do. obviously the goini genes had a stronger influence on the pattern of that hatchling, but there is no clue as to how the red pigment is distributed (mechanism) or controlled in one example.
we "know" hypomelanism is recessive, but hypererythrism is still a guess, just ask the guys trying to produce red bulls consistently. noone (that i am aware of) knows if it is linked to hypo in getula or if it is a result of carotenoids present in the diet of prey and collects in skin cells of snakes. has anyone shown a pattern over several generations with blaze phase yet?
that being said, i hope you keep some back and do some sibling-sibling and parent sibling crosses to see how this trait is expressed over several generations. i think it is also worthwhile to keep an eye on that orange beast Jeff S. has...

great project, keep it moving...
daveb

One thing is for sure Dave if the Blaze had hypo in it we would have seen hypos come out in the clucth I produced in conjunction with TonyD (I used his Blaze to breed to my hypo) a couple years ago. It was to prove the Blaze was not related to the hypo nor was it manufactured by Gulf Coast reptiles by breeding a hypo to a goini.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

np

I agree with that statement...

That was my first thought when I saw that hatchling, it was just underdeveloped as a whole.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.kingpinreptiles.com
^ Updated 6/1

im still not sure the ID of a blaze phase? Are Jeff S. hypo/Goinis Blaze?heres a pic of a Fla x goini i picked up a couple years ago (old pic)maybe Rainer remembers if its Hypo x Goini?we were side x side at Sheila and Chris' table

here is a pic of my male Blaze as a baby:

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

is your blaze pure Goini or,btw do you remember if the one i have is het hypo???? Chris

Sheila told me that we got snakes from two different clutches. Mine was Blaze and yours i don't remember.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Thanks,well im gonna feed the little pig 06 female i got last year all she can eat this season (shes already on sm hoppers)and likes em'then maybe try to prove him out next year

Sometimes really random crap happens in genetics. People would like to believe that genetics always follows rules. And mostly it does. Actually it always does as long as you include exceptions to the rules. Haha

I don't know a lot about the specific traits you are talking about but I can tell you that VERY occasionally you will get a completely impossible unexpected result from a pairing. I have heard of it twice with snakes (once with a retic and once with a ball). A codom morph was bred to a normal, and WOW a super popped out??!!??
The retic clutch had something like 60 normal babies and ONE super!

The point is that occasionally things like crossing over and incomplete separation of cromosomes, or polyploidy, ooorr Blah Blah Blah.... can cause really impossible results.

With how small the clutch is you have the right idea. Do the pairing again next year and we shall see.

Thanks Zack sounds like mother nature.and morphes are quite often just a genetic deformity(according to my old vet)and morphes may carry other problems that have not surfaced,I think he was trying to convey that to pay on the way out and your animal is pretty much screwed

see now there's something i can work with...

I'm dissappoint with the fact that "we" look to disprove before we try to prove, makes sense of or understand...

i stand my belief that this is a blaze... if it were lacking pigment i don't think it would have solid black striping (broken stripe)... the eye color as well does not suggest lack of pigment...

it didn't come out looking like something new

i didn't come out looking like an albino

it came out as an exact copy (mutation wise) of the mother...

Old pic of Mom

hopefully this anomaly repeats it's self...

~Z
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***All New Updated Pix in Gallery***


Royal ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

If I get any kinked premature snakes this year i will take pics and post them. Hopefully I won't have any but if i do you will see the pattern is different as well as the eye colors on premis.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

looks like a blaze phase to me.

I have seen a handfull of premature babies and I too thought that I had just lost somthing amazing at first. They always look sporadic, patchy, weird, white, whatever. But I have never seen one with the clear beginings to a known pattern like yours has.

Any number of reasons could have caused this but hypo = blaze would not be one of them. If that were the case all hatchlings would have been morph types. My guess would be that the neonate died prior to full developement of pigment. That said the pattern doesn't look anything like brooks or even an F1 cross. very interesting results to say the least. How do the others look?

So there's only one "type" of hypomelanism? And it cannot be connected to hypererythrism?
What would a reduction (not total absence)of all color be called? Seriously, I don't know...
With hypo kings it seems we have a reduced am of black that initially lets the red shine through in all its glory. That red however fades over time as you know. Most times the yellow does too. Are they connected or not?
A hypomelanistic hypererythristic would be??
Anyway, I'll leave all that figurin' stuff to y'all with the snake degrees.
I have seen dead in egg snakes that have lacked one thing or another from color, to melanin,to eyes, etc.
That snake sure looks like his momma.
Has there been any notice of problems hatching in the blaze?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Mark if I recall there are several pedigrees of hypo in brooks kings but most have been proven allelic (compatible) in cross breedings and produce 100% hypos in the F1 generation. This has not been the case with hypo crossed to blaze therefore the traits are not allelic. I will say though that it my opinion that blaze is a type of hypo. That the first ones to pop up were very red was only a function of their coming from a hi red line. If it was a hi yellow line we’d be calling them golden goini. I'm not sure what double homozygous hypo blaze are going to look like. I hope I'm wrong but I'm thinking its going to be something like a hybino where one trait largely obscures the other.

I get hi-yellows and hi-reds too in my hypos...Can you bellieve my best pair didn't produce this year??!!
I always love to watch them hatch.
Probably right about the one trait masking the other...
W/S seems to do that too with the red.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

All the other hatchlings came out banded... none of them were aberrant or striped

~ZF

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***All New Updated Pix in Gallery***


Royal ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

...copied and linked to/from another forum.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1345669,1345669

interesting since we were discussing red...
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com