Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I went to check on the snake just now when I woke up. He was nowhere to be seen in the tank. I moved all his hiding spots and started to panic. Darn snake was completely buried in the sand. I am learning.

Its often a good idea to learn all about keeping an animal BEFORE you get it. That said, realize sand is a very poor choice for substrate. It is not absorbant at all and will quickly become a haven for bacteria and all kind of pathogens that would otherwise dry up and die with accepted substrate like aspen bedding, paper towels, or even newspaper. Please forget a "natural" set up, all your snake will do is contaminate it and destroy it anyways. Please concentrate on keeping the snake HEALTHY, if any sand is ingested its not a bio product like the others, and it wont break down in the gut. If you want something to look at, buy a nice picture of a milk and put it on the front of the tank. They are secretive in nature,found UNDER things so they will continue to burrow out of sight. Overall health includes eliminating stress. Make sure to put the top back on the cage EVERY TIME too,lol.Jeff

Thank you for your opinion.

Jeff's "opinion" is correct.. And, I agree that sand, along with Calci-Sand and corn cob bedding are all poor choices as substrate because they can cause impactation if ingested.

~ Mike Russo

Jeff is now my buddy and is going to supply me with a lifetime supply of substrate...lol

Applegate's book I have always referred to as the milksnake BIBLE. Its a 1 stop shop to answer every "stupid" question that draws sarcasm out of us crusty folk,lol. Man, $12 autographed and shipped?? I am ordering another myself as my old copy is falling apart from being USED so much. Hope he didnt turn the newest version into a picture book,lol. If you can get past the bull...this can be a great place to glean info. Read it and come back armed for debate! Jeff

I second that.

I always keep mine handy.

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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.kingpinreptiles.com
^ Updated 6/1

Yeah, that book is awesome! I read it several times even before I got my first Milk. Any prospective new snake keeper has to remember that they owe it to the snake they're about to get to do as much research as possible because they are responsible for the well-being of a living creature. Anybody remember something called stewardship?

reako45

I have been reading all the info I can find and asking many questions. We did not just walk by a pet store one day and say wow that's cute, I want one. Our setup was handled by a close friend who breeds snakes. He chose the substrate to be used. People seem to have varying opinions on the issue of sand. You made yours quite clear. Btw, the tank is locked.

hey there, welcome to the forum

Years ago, I used to thoroughly enjoy keep all kinds of snakes in naturalistic set-ups and used sand without problems for quite a while. Watching snakes in their naturalistic set-ups was as entertaining as watching TV. That was something I really enjoyed!

About 10 years ago, I moved toward the very simple set-up...paper substrate, disposable water dishes, and plastic hides.

Naturalistic set-ups are a lot more work, and I agree, sand is not a great choice for substrate, but I really don't think you desrved to get jumped on lectured over it. On the forums, we should SHARE our opinions and advice, not force-feed them to people

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Mike Heinrich,
708-428-5616
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
http://www.amazontreeboa.org

I agree with Jeff DO NOT use sand as a substrate it make look nice but it doesn’t help you’re animal in any way and in fact can cause major health issues. Most people on these forums will use either Aspen or newspaper, personally I use newspaper with all of my sub-adults and Eco Earth for some of my other animals. I prefer not to feed on any substrate other then newspaper as there is NO risk of swallowing it. Newspaper may not look nice but in my opinion is the best hands down substrate and I have been using it for 15 years with no problems at all, remember you can shred some newspaper to give your animal the ability to borrow which most milks love to do, just FYI if your using under tank heating don’t go overboard with the shredded newspaper as it can loose heat easily.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

newspapers all the way! or paper towel for hatchlings in 4 qt tubs. i have talked with her and she is new to this whole snake thing. i told her if she has any questions that what the forums is for and we are here to help. she been nice and wants to learn with her first milksnake.

>>Its often a good idea to learn all about keeping an animal BEFORE you get it..... If you want something to look at, buy a nice picture of a milk and put it on the front of the tank.

What are we trying to do...chase all the new keepers away from the forum? Talking down to people and using sarcasm will do just that.

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Mike Heinrich,
708-428-5616
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
http://www.amazontreeboa.org

Mike, I was never lecturing and I wasnt trying to scare her,lol. If she reread my post now after 3-5 emails back and forth she can easily read between the lines and see where I was being funny/obnoxious and where the good info was/is. But I am sometimes abrasive to get a REACTION. Any REACTION is good, it means she is paying attention and cares. Those are the people I want to help, I dont want to help the person getting on the forum looking for my hard earned secrets. I willingly share info, but I wont do it until I feel they really want it. Know what I mean? I am a scientist, I get accused of lecturing all the time,lol. But whatever it takes to get the info not TO the newbie but INTO THEIR HEAD. My opinion means no more than anyone else's, and she can easily dismiss mine. But didnt it sound like she was getting bad advice from the beginning? I am trying to straighten the course,no more.Jeff

It isn't so much that sand in itself is bad, but for a milksnake like yours, it is likely not the best choice.

Tropical milksnakes like Hondurans do well on Eco-Earth if you want an "earthy" substrate. Eco-Earth is shredded coconut husk. It is sold by a few companies under various names. You can moisten it as needed. And of course, newspaper is always a fine substrate, as is aspen.

Milksnakes like a periodic humid hide or a good soak for 5-10 minutes in very shallow water. If you live in an area with moderate humidity, you are probably fine. In drier areas or seasons, an occasional soak (like in 1/2" deep water, that is all) does wonders for hydration. Maybe once every few weeks. Or instead, offer a plastic box of damp sphagnum moss. Let the moss dry out completely before misting it again. I do that in Spring and Summer, not Winter.
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Mark

You have a Honduran Milk snake it comes from Honduras. To my knowledge "never been there". Honduras doesn't have very much if any sand. It's a jungle "tropical climate". I wouldn't use sand despite what you friend who "breeds snakes" said.

Good luck.
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Joe Deavers
J & S Reptiles
http://www.jandsreptiles.net

Don't worry about what these guys say ,they don't know how to talk to a woman.Come by my place later sweety and I'll show you my substrate.(smiles)

I think a good question that no one in this thread has asked is are you setting up to breed your snake, or is it a pet, that you want to see and interact with.

We have a Mexican Milk (L.annulata) that is our pet. I set up his vivarium using info from Philippe de Vosjoli (Design and Maintenance of Desert Vivaria) and Bob Applegate. I have a very naturalistic setup, with soil substrate (no sand) and live plants. He seems to like it pretty well, there are several hide spots and plenty for him to dig in.

As for the bacteria issue,, we remove his poop as soon as we see it, but what little remains seems to be taken care of by the "good" bacteria in the soil. His vivarium never stinks, the palnts are doing well, and he is very healthy and growing.

I think the use of newspapers and aspen is probably the best choice for the breeders, as so many here have great success using it for their setups. So it is up to your personal preference whether you want your snake's home to be visually pleasing or not. Our vivarium is nice to look at regardless is the snake is visible or not. Some of our guests do not even know there is a snake in the tank, they just say what a nice terarrium we have.

But there really is no such thing as "GOOD BACTERIA". I also suggest that if you want to "interact" with a snake that milksnakes are a poor choice. The health of the animal is much more critical than what the place looks like. You dont take any STRESS into consideration. You dont keep your dog the way they do on the dog calendar do you? I guarentee you that no milk has ever seen anything in your setup,so I dont know how you can can it "naturalistic". Snakes dont "make homes" in nature, they poop and move on to get away from it. Leaving even traces in the cage encourages BAD=all bacteria. Your post reads like you work at a pet store or still subscribe to that magazine.
By the way, the book is called something like HISTORY AND SYSTEMATICS OF MILKSNAKES by Williams. Its been a while since I reread it, but its on the shelf at home. Its not a picture book, but it cites lit and concentrates larger bodies of work into one place. Jeff

Jeff,
Thanks for the book title. I have seen this book referred to before but never with the title name.

As for the bacteria, I should not have used the word "good". What I meant was the natural occuring bacteria that wouls start to break down things naturally. As in a terrarium, if leaves fell off a plant and you didn't remove every one that dropped, they would start to decompose unless the soil was sterile. I realize there are 2 schools of thought here, but it has been my experience so far that the amount of bacteria present in my vivarium is not harmful, and as I said before, I came to this comclusion after doing some research before putting my snake into this environment. I am diligent in keeping his space clean to make sure it does not become an unhealthy environment for him.

And you are right, a milk snake is not the best choice for an interactive pet snake, but I like them, and mine has a very good disposition. He is out and active around dawn and dusk, and he does not seem to mind being handled as he has never musked or nipped when being held. I got him at about 1 week old, and of all the baby milks I looked at that day (about 30 or so), he was the only one that did not freak out or try to jump and get away. He was calm yet curious, active but not hyper. Also, he was the only annulata present, all the pueblans and hondos were hyper and skittish.

And no, I do not work for a pet store or subscribe to a certain magazine. I know that my setup would not work for everyone, but it works for us.

You said you put in before introducing the snake. Now I know research to be scientific,theory-samples-tests-results. How do you define "research"?? I suggest that your conclusion was made before any "research" was done. Just because snakes dont die from some introduced bacteria DOES NOT mean that it is either harmless or good for their health. I commend you on ssp, annulata's are a good choice for you. Dont forget to include a heat gradient in your set up to allow for optimal thermoregulation,Jeff

Once again I see that I am not using the correct wording for describing what I meant.

By research I mean I looked up some things and did some reading on the subject before proceeding. I did not use the scientific method to conduct and actual experiment on an hypothesis. So it was not scientific research, but I did research what I was trying to find.

The point being is that having some of the bacteria present that would be present in the snake's natural environment is not necessarily detremental. But I'm getting the impression that any bacteria present is considered bad. Well I am not running a lab nor a hospital. So as long as my snake's home is clean and he is healthy and seems to be thriving, what is the problem? As I mentioned in my first post, I used Philippe de Vosjoli as a source, who based his ideas on Ludwig Trutnau and others. I decided to use his idea of "bioactive substrate system"(BSS) as he did do scientific experiments and research on the use of different substrates. His conclusion that with proper cleaning and maintenance, "The (BSS) method allows you to keep snakes on a natural looking substrate that bioactively processes waste residues and allows for the growth of live plants, accomplishing the goals of the art of keeping snakes. The key to the BSS is the colonization by beneficial aerocic bacteria, which break down the waste residue of snakes and other animals."(de Vosjoli, 45)

I am satisfied with the "research" I have done on the subject, as it is based on scientific research others have done. Yet I will continue to seek new information on the subject and learn as I go along, as no one's method or way is the "right" or only one.

So, Prof. Jeff, do I get a passing grade?

Reference:

De Vosjoli, Philippe. 2004. The Art of Keeping Snakes. Irvine, CA: Advanced Vivarium Systems.

Trutnau, Ludwig. 1986. Nonvenomous Snakes. A Comprehensive Guide to Care and Breeding of Over 100 Species. New York: Barron's Educational Series, Inc.