Reptile & Amphibian Forums

can anyone direct me to a site that has the "normal" ranges for a full blood panel for herps (BD's in particular). Darwin just had extensive work done and my vet does not see anything that is outstanding (we are at a loss as to what is wrong with him). I trust him completely, but picked up a copy of the bw today and would like to have something to compare it to for my own knowledge.

thanks,
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

This is the best I could find for you in the limited time I have. Sorry but I don't think it's going to be much help.

http://www.anapsid.org/labtests.html

Perhaps if you post his symptoms here someone may have experienced the same thing or something similar.

This could be helpful.

http://www.animalnetwork.com/reptiles/detail.aspx?aid=28349&cid=3977&search=

Maybe this is what you are looking for.

http://www.bearded-dragon-network.com/oldbvd/blood.htm

I just googled "Bearded Dragon Blood Work"

Keep diggin', sport! You get better & better each time. LOL!

The only help I can be at the moment is a cheerleader! "Go BDlvr, go!" Ha! Ha!

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hi BDlvr

thanks for the links. I have to admit I was being a bit lazy (and have limited time) on trying to find one myself

anapsid did not have exactly what I need but still had some interesting info (she has SO many great pages). The 2nd one brought me to a "bottle jaw" article(?) and the last was definitely helpful. I downloaded the PDF so I could read the charts better

thanks for your time!

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I posted the 2nd web address regarding "bottle jaw" because it listed sources for reference ranges for bearded dragons.

The last web address does list these but be sure you take into account all the parameters of the test. Like, all the dragons tested were offspring of one male and 2 females, were the same age, and raised under the same conditions. The ISIS results (instructions on how to obtain them are in the "bottle jaw" link) may be better as they likely use a larger and more diverse sample.

I scanned the bottle jaw article quickly but will take a closer look. Yes, I realize all you said re: the pdf, but the ranges are what I was looking for and won't try and diagnose anything from the results of those dragons. My reply to B22 has more info on Darwin's symptoms.

I posted this to Health forum, too and got reply with list of ranges. I'll get back here after I do some checking (and errands!)

thanks again!!
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hi
yeah whats wrong with him ?
what r his symptoms ?
byeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

Hey - how are you? I remember you from the past, I just have not posted for AGES!!

The whole story is long and ongoing. It boils down to him never really coming out brumation - lethargic (or lazy), won't eat ANY greens/veggies/fruit except applesauce and that is only if I feed him with a spoon that he licks. He doesn't even eat much in the way of insects. He has always been extremely docile, but he basically never moves.

We started with fecal which was clean (previous one was, too), my vet tube fed him at one point b/c he'd lost weight after brumation. Gave him fluids. He has been there a few times and neither of us can find anything wrong. I finally went to the bloodwork just to rule anything out. The only thing that was a bit high was glucose. After looking at Darwin's results and the link that BDlvr gave me the range for glucose is 139-291 and his is 320. That happened once before and when he checked it via urinalysis it was fine.

I take him out a lot and put him on a window sill for real UVB, but if I put him on floor to go off on his own he will ALWAYS go fro some hidden dark place. If I take him outside for sun he goes for the nearest bush. I'm worried about him but at a loss.

He is 2 1/2, is a Citrus translucent and comes from good bloodline. He is in a 75 gal tank, poops in his tub, basking temps range from 95-105 (he has a selection). I do not free range because he will never hunt for them they just hide. I use a reptisun 10 b/c his tank is deep (21" and I wanted to make sure UVB made it to where he hangs out.

Any thoughts appreciated!! Here's a pic of him in his bath about a year ago

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I am not saying that the fecals your vet did are wrong, but I took my beardie into a local reptile vet when he had the same systems. The first 2 fecals came out negative. 3rd was a misdiagnosis leading to a very large dose of Panacur. I questioned that on this forum and all agreed that it was too much. I now drive to a vet that is a hour away. The 1st fecal he did showed what the real problem was (coccidia) - Napoleon was treated and has been healthy ever since. What I learned, thanks to the wonderful support on this forum, was to get a second opinion when your gut tells you things aren't adding up. Hope you find your answer soon!

I've been taking both Darwin for almost a year and my chameleon to for about 6 months (he did his eye surgery). I may have made it sound different in my post, it was just that when I first went to him I figured I would do it when just a routine fecal and exam were in order. Back then he did have coccidia and after we got that cleared up he found pinworms, but his last 3 fecals have been clean.

What I learned, thanks to the wonderful support on this forum, was to get a second opinion when your gut tells you things aren't adding up. Hope you find your answer soon!

that is why I came here and another forum. I get my 2nd opinions from everyone's collective experience and knowledge! I have been on the KS forums since my first chameleons in 2003 and it was the cham forum that got me thru my terrible months with -and loss of - Luna, my veiled cham. I will say that probably 95% of what I know about chameleons and dragons have been from these (and a couple other) forums and my own research. I agree, we would be lost without them!

thanks!
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hi
i only can sugest 2 things .
parazap and a kaytee birdfood for hatchlings .
parazap deworm youre beardie and give him a better imume system .
also in the kaytee birdfood there is more in then in applesause
i think the best thing is the enzymes and bacsils .
cold be when he get 14 days good bacterias in tummy .
so make a tea of parazap and mixed it with the kaytee parot babie food .
it can be there r not much good bacterias in tummy do digest his food wel r to get hungry feeling .
atleast you can try .
good luck with him .
yep i remember youre name
i have seen so many faces coming by in the 7 years i keeping beardies.
on cool place and go in the dark is ofthend worms r other parasiete .
maybe a second opionoin on fecal exame some where else?
byeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

I have been super busy and also am privately emailing someone on the situation with Darwin. I will reply briefly to all relevant posts:

B22 - thanks for the info. I have heard mixed things about parazap and his fecals have been clean the last 3x (we did one only 3 months apart when we began to start investigating. The Kaytee birdfood, I'll look into but if it has fruit would it be a problem with his glucose which is already a bit high?

thanks,
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hi
after you gave medicines against cocodiose and pinworms have you then replace the good bacterias???????
you need to the medicine kills the good bacterias he need to digest his food.
get capsules achidhopulus also named probiotics .
mix one capsules you pull it apart and put the powder in 1/2 glas of water r you put it in the parazap tea .
medicines wil be hard for a dragons and if you not replace the good bacterias then he wil not eat .
byeeeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

Hi, the coccidia and pinworms were last Sept/ (2006) through maybe Dec. or so. I gave him Acidopholiz as recommendeed by Veronica (and others) of Beautiful Dragons. Actualy wjen I mix up baaby food or repta-aid I use a couple droppers of the A just to help along.

There seems to be some question that he may have adenovirus due to his beig a translucent. I am in correspondence with a couple folks about it and will be speaking to my vet tomorrow about the testing. And trying to stay calm.

On an up note - he has eaten a few basil leaves the past few days!
thanks for your input!

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hi
give the good bacterias for one week long .
i think you wil see improvement .
and stil i would say give one week parazap tea and then when its cooled of put some probiotics in it .
it wil help i know for shure
byeeeeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl

Find out or at least suggest to your vet to network with other vets, especially vets more experienced in bearded dragons to help with the blood work and overall diagnostics. Most vets are happy to lend their expertise to fellow vets, especially when they can see all the test results.

Check the following links for herp vets in your area, you can always bring names and numbers to your vet to consult.

www.arav.org/

www.herpvetconnection.com/

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PHLdyPayne

Hi,

My vet is a herp vet even though he is not ARAV certified (which I have found does not ALWAYS account for specific knowledge). the vet I used to go to, who is ARAV was the only one I ever brought Luna, my veiled chameleon to; he is not only much farther away (not that that would stop me - he saw Luna many, many times and did her necropsy as I was on my way to him when she died) but frankly, when I brought Darwin in for the first time I had a sort of bad experience with him. I decided to test out my now current vet (Dr. N) by just bringing in Darwin for a fecal and general exam so I could size him up - and I liked him. His vet tech, who has beardies and other herps, says that he is always staying current. She said that if he knows I am coming in with a specific problem (like Cy's eye) he will double check info before hand. Cyrus, panther cham, now goes to him and he recently had eye surgery that Dr. N did. He has owned many herps himself and I think my ARAV guy was really more a bird guy.

Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate what you are saying and Dr. N would be open to it if I do not see any improvement. One of the things I like about him is that he seems to really stay on top of current info. He also does not do a lot of unnecessary testing and is quite honest about what to expect and not. I live in a rural area where there are a lot of livestock vets so Dr. G. and Dr. N are the only ones within a reasonable distance (the others are at least 2 hours). I know ARAV and herpconn listings (I was one who authored the Herp Resource on cham forum with wyvern and another member)so I might call one for input and then talk to Dr. N.

Darwin is not really sick (that's why we are so baffled). If I had to sum it up he is lazy and tired. I know that would seem to be symptomatic of something (I spelled out details and setup in reply to B22) but nothing is showing up. The next thing to do would be an ultrasound and/or x-ray.

Thanks again,
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

You never know your vet may be great but maybe another vet has seen something similar before of starts looking in another direction.

That's the great thing about this type of forum. So many people with diverse experience.

I know what would perk him up. Get him a girlfriend. Seriously.

You know....this girlfriend thing has been tossed around a lot. I don't want to breed and wanted to get him a companion. I posted to another bd forum and everyone said not to do it, beardies are not social and cannot be housed together except for breeding, etc. or maybe 2 females so that sort of ended that.

However, as I re-read The Bearded Dragon Manual by Dr. Sue Donoghue, et al social deprivation is mentioned as well as co-housing separately from the breeding colonies info. He definitely perks up when he is with me or hanging out with his favorite cat on the window perch. Well, the tech at my vet's office, who also has a single male dragon, has been thinking the same thing. She told me yesterday that she got two females and when she showed one to Grendel he went nuts trying to get at it. They are currently being quarantined and she says she will keep them anyway. I asked if I could "borrow" one just to get his reaction. I cannot go to the expense of setting up a new one, quarantining for 30-90 days and then not have it work out. I am moving next year and just can't add an additional tank to what I have (plus the expense). But on the other hand I do think he is lonely. Sure, I understand the whole anthropomorphizing thing but when you have just a few animals as companions (as opposed to breeding colonies) you really get to know them. My chameleon is by himself but I KNOW they are not social and do not worry about him being lonely (he's got it made anyway, free range jungle gym, dripper and humidifier turned on at his command - he's got me wrapped around his prehensile tail!)

Darwin is in my bedroom all by himself whereas my cham and blotchies are in my office with me. I feel bad that he is in there all alone and have thought of moving him in here, which would be a big job and I would have to coax a burly neighbor to help me The irony is that the day after I got him in his big tank my chameleon, Luna, died and he could have gone in here after all. I now have another cham and he is in here. I don't know, the logistics, his health - what do you think? What's your opinion, experience with (or if you know someone) who has non-breeding couples.

You are right about the vet thing but I was going to check the forums first. I wanted to get the blood result ranges and then I was going to post the whole situation to get the forum's input. Guess I should have known better than to think I could get away without someone asking what was wrong! lol! I've been on the forums for years and I know I would have asked!!

thanks!
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I think BD's are social creatures. I think they have very few goals in life. Well just 2 really eat and breed. If you get a female he most likely will breed her. But so what? She's going to produce eggs whether he breeds her or not. The only difference is that the eggs would be infertile which are more difficult on the female. After she lays the eggs, you just freeze them and then discard if you don't want babies.

If you were to get a female you would have to have a separate enclosure available as a nest box as well as the quarentine thing. 2 females with one male work best in my opinion. Sort of speads out the abuse. lol. But I know people that have 1 male with 1 female and no problems and often I have only one of each together. The interaction between dragons is also interesting and amusing as opposed to a dragon housed alone that is primarily sedentary.

I get so many mixed opinion on this subject - even from vets.

I went thru the infertile egg thing with Luna and ultimately lost her to it (long story) and swore I'd never have another female. I do have a pair of blotchies and Ana usually lays 4- 5 clutches b/t April and Sept. She's a chunky little thing but still has not laid a single clutch yet this season (whew! I'm too busy - but I did buy a hova-bator. Last year's clutches were a disaster). I'm going to wait for now as the expense and logistics just can't work for me right now anyway and I would be getting her for Darwin, not for me - and that's not right. Especially with such mixed experiences. I'd rather just have him healthy.

thanks,
lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

I'm really not buying into the stress thing after everything you wrote. It seems to be the catch all in the reptile world. Gee, can't find anything else so it must be stress. Beardies need 8 hours of uninterruped sleep. They also need to feel that they are not prey to another animal. Other than that Beardies are very durable and curious. I am constantly changing my enclosures or who is living with who and who may be alone. They often sleep in random places around the house. None of this ever seems to be a problem.

Your dragon doesn't really sound any different than my male when he is housed alone. Outside he will not stay in the sun like the girls. In 15 minutes he's looking for a place to sleep. I have never put him outside in the same cage as the girls.

I launch fireworks whenever he eats live food, but always push. He will never eat crickets, roaches, horn worms, phoenix worms or butter worms. He will eat, and believe me he only does it as a personal favor to me, superworms and sometimes silkworms. You could try these.

You should also have a weight scale. It would help to know how much he weighs. I weigh mine at least a couple times a week and write it down. It really helps with understanding trends after brumation, etc. Plus he may just not eat much because he is not hungry. But if he doesn't lose weight then that's fine.

I give him a one full day limit on the hiding thing. Everyone seems to be afraid of this. If you don't want them to hide take away the hide or block it.

He will never hide when one or both of the girls are with him. I really just think maybe he is bored. I play the radio all day none of mine could see the TV from their enclosure anyway.

Just my 3 cents. Used the 2 cents before. lol.

Your vet tech shouldn't give up. The he went crazy is normal. It is natural that he must show dominance. Once he shows them who's boss, which is a little scary if you've never seen it before, he will calm down.

No, she's not giving up. The girls are quarantined right now and she will ease them in when the time comes. She is better equipped than I to have the two girls by themselves if the boy/girl thing doesn't work.
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hi there!
Let me start out by saying that I'm in no way an expert on bearded dragons, by far. I say that because I don't want you to misinterpret what I'm about to say.

I've been following your thread and have been dwelling on it most of the afternoon. I can't pinpoint a possible reason or cause for you beardie's behavior, even though I've done quite a bit of searching thru Google and "The Bearded Dragon Manual" that you mentioned (great book, btw).

Now, I know we all can make mistakes and if a Vet's not familiar with what they're looking for in a fecal exam I suppose they could miss something. Assuming (which I know shouldn't be done) the Vet did know what they were looking for, I imagine that if there were enough parasites present to be causing the problem that they would've been seen, found.

Given the facts that you've presented, blood work, fecal, etc..., it seems as though there's not a physical (bodily) cause for your beardie's condition. That leaves husbandry and/or stress/depression.

No, I'm not saying you're a bad keeper. Not at all. I'm just saying that it seems to me that something's not right somewhere with its setup (temps, lighting, etc...), and/or, it's stressed or depressed for some reason.

Based on what all you've said, I feel that your level of experience is up to par and not the problem, either. And because of that I'm not going to run thru the series of husbandry questions that I normally would because I'm betting that you've already double, triple, checked everything.

My train of thought, which is probably one of the craziest ones I've ever had, was to try to find out the type of chemical produced or increased by stress and see if your blood work results mentioned it, gave any figures for it. The blood work may not be that in-depth, I don't know.

I know that stress in the human body creates or increases a certain chemical that can be detected, however, I was unable to find anything in relation to bearded dragons in that area.

The only other thing I can think of at the moment is it seems like some kind of change was made to the bearide's setup, cage location, room environment change (painted room, etc...{I'm grasping for straws, now}) or something, from the time it went into brumation to the time it came out of it (if it's been acting that way since it came out of brumation). But there again, I'm pretty sure you've already been over that a dozen times.

I'm sorry! I feel practically worthless to you and I don't like it. I feel your pain & share your concern. Whatever you do, don't give up, just keep chugging right along.
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I know the stress hormone you are referring to, it was talked about during a experiment on the reaction to tracker implants placed in snakes during IHS...it can be measured in blood but I can't remember what it was called. I am not sure if this same hormone is common in all animals, or if each animal or most animals have different kinds. But...doing a bit of research via google on stress hormones, I did come across two types that are common in both humans and animals (and even in plants) which sounds like the one talked about in the studies presented at the IHS.

It may be a good ideal for your doctor to look at the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine. The former chemical also causes the brain to release glucose into the bloodstream, which may account for the higher levels of blood sugar you mentioned was in the blood results. However, keep in mind that being stuck with needles in a vet's office is likely to cause stress by itself, so the results may be inconclusive because of this.

If stress is playing a role in your dragon's lack of activity, reassessing his environment will be necessary. Buy another digital thermometer and double check temperatures. Check for anything in and out of the cage that could be intimidating to your dragon (pictures of predatory animals, high traffic area, change in the environment around time this all started etc). It could easily just be a plastic owl set outside the window to scare away pigeons, which the dragon is seeing through the window and thinks it is a hawk hoping to eat him etc.

DO you have a ceiling fan? Being warmer weather, if you have it on now but didn't over the winter, and its not far from your dragon's cage where he can see it, the spinning blades could be stressing him out. I noticed this with my female dragon, she would hide almost all day, but when I turned off the ceiling fan, she comes out now (though it took a day before she was convinced the circling thing was gone LOL). If your dragon can see the fan spinning, maybe a good ideal to move the cage or just not use the fan all the time, maybe just at night.

If your dragon is stuck in your room all the time, alone, put a small tv in there and have it on. I find bearded dragons will watch a television (or most likely the moving images) though not sure if this is something they enjoy or just a distraction to relief the everyday boredom.

I know moving a large cage can be a pain, and impractical if you can't get help to move your dragon's cage. Perhaps you can spend more time interacting with your dragon (other than taking him to a vet). Take him outside for an hour of natural sunlight (best to keep him in a container, be it a large rubbermaid or a flexarium type cage. Just be sure there are shaded areas in the cage so he can get out of the sun if it is too hot. Also, don't leave him alone out there, stay with him the entire time. Bring a book and something to drink.

I believe you also mentioned ot place your dragon on a windowsill to get UVB...he won't, not through standard window glass. It filters out 99% of UVB rays. He has to be in direct unfiltered sunlight (or at worse, filtered through a screen...still reduced UVB through screen but not as much as glass)
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PHLdyPayne

Good job, good research, good post!

Now that you mention it, I'm pretty sure that "glucose" was one of the things I was thinking of. I agree that being poked with needles can increase it, too. I went back & read the post where she mentioned it. > > > "The only thing that was a bit high was glucose. After looking at Darwin's results and the link that BDlvr gave me the range for glucose is 139-291 and his is 320. That happened once before and when he checked it via urinalysis it was fine."

Looks like that settles that, eh? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know what this beardie's normal glucose level is.

I still can't help but feeling that it's more mental (stress related) than physical, though. But I also must be honest with myself & everyone else, I ain't no scientist.

Oh well, I'll chime in again if I come up with another hair-brained idea. LOL!

Best wishes!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I hate to break it to ya'll but most likely the glucose is high because of the applesauce.

> > > "I hate to break it to ya'll but most likely the glucose is high because of the applesauce."

Assuming the dragon had been fed applesauce within hours of the bloodwork, possibly so.

Thankfully, I've never had to have bloodwork done on an animal so I don't know if the procedures are the same as in bloodwork for humans. For humans, nothing more than water is to be consumed 8hrs prior to blood being drawn.

Since this was a scheduled bloodwork (if I read that post right) I assume it wasn't fed any applesauce beforehand.

You may very well be right, though.

Catch ya later, sport!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

actually the best way to measure stress hormones is via fecal tests. These hormones do leave traces that can be measured in the poop, as you will almost always get false readings of stress hormones taking blood work (unless the dragon is anesthetized first, but that adds additional risks). The study I heard at the IHS, took tests for stress hormones via fecal matter....usually taken a week afterwards...(it was with snakes who have a much slower metabolism than bearded dragons).

blood sugar can be raised in many different ways, other than flight/fight triggers (stress is one of them). Sweet food definitely will raise it, though it should lower within a few hours after eating. Most fruit, especially prepared fruit such as apple sauce, has alot of sugars, even the so called unsweetened sauces can still have sugars in them...though it will be frutose instead (a naturally occurring sugar in fruit). Before blood tests, it would be best not to offer any fruit at all, instead stick to greens and vegetables (avoid sweet vegetables as well, such as sweet potato).

But blood sugar isn't the issue here, so a little high glucose that went down normally, isn't a concern.

Trying some probiotics (parazap, other probiotics, unsweetened, fat free yogurt (in small amounts, teaspoon or less, two or three times a week, for a single week) could help boost appetite.
-----
PHLdyPayne

that is not what increased the glucose. My vet said it was probably stress
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

he gets applesauce MAYBE once a week and it is mixed with repta-aid or veggie baby food just so he'll eat. He eats no fruit, never liked it. Oh, he used to like bits of orange but never ate much of it.
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

BDlvr wrote; "I hate to break it to ya'll (PHLdyPayne & HappyHillbilly) but most likely the glucose is high because of the applesauce."

lele replied; "Nope! He gets applesauce MAYBE once a week and it is mixed with repta-aid or veggie baby food just so he'll eat."

HappyHillbilly & PHLdyPayne's response to BDlvr;

Ha! Ha! Just couldn't resist, BDlvr. You know I'm just pickin' at ya. LOL!

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

It may be a good ideal for your doctor to look at the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine. The former chemical also causes the brain to release glucose into the bloodstream, which may account for the higher levels of blood sugar you mentioned was in the blood results. However, keep in mind that being stuck with needles in a vet's office is likely to cause stress by itself, so the results may be inconclusive because of this.

I will definitely ask him about this. I can tell when any of my other animals are stressed Cyrus will get dark and his or gape (think it happened once, he's a pretty mellow cham) and the blotchies are hyper anyway and never handled (except to get Ana into her laying jar), but Darwin. he is always the same. Being a citrus he does change his color to a lovely yellow when he is warm and when I am holding him (like just hanging out with me while I work).

If stress is playing a role in your dragon's lack of activity, reassessing his environment will be necessary. Buy another digital thermometer and double check temperatures.
I sue a temp gun and nothing has changed. I use quality UVB and change them every 6 months. I use the 10.0 for him b/c his tank is deep (can't recall if I mentioned that in an earlier post or not). His routine has been the same as long as he has been in that tank - 2 years this month. The only thing that varies is his supplementation because he is not eating much. He will lick calcium off a rock (much like my female blotchie when gravid), but as an adult always has. His calcium level was fine in results (11.6 mg/dl).

Check for anything in and out of the cage that could be intimidating to your dragon (pictures of predatory animals, high traffic area, change in the environment around time this all started etc). It could easily just be a plastic owl set outside the window to scare away pigeons, which the dragon is seeing through the window and thinks it is a hawk hoping to eat him etc.

again, nothing. I live a rather routine life myself and not big on change so other than getting a new bedspread last year (lol!) that's it. And no, it does not have lions and tigers and bears - oh my! It is a very muted green floral.

He hangs out with my cats right on the sunning window seat. not much gets him riled. I have Cyrus in my office and when Darwin sits n the window sill he can see the blotchies and Cyrus and doesn't even look at them. (Cyrus had eye surgery and limited vision in his right eye so he doesn't get stressed seeing Darwin - I'd be more concerned about that since chams can stress easily.)

DO you have a ceiling fan?

no, but that is an interesting thought. I use air conditioners and one is next to his tank (flush in wall, same as short end of his tank - his tank sticks out long ways from wall so it is open on three sides. I'll upload some pics of it later and see if you have any thoughts) but it's in the BR so I use it at night if at all. If I do use it in daytime he's clueless.

If your dragon is stuck in your room all the time, alone, put a small tv in there and have it on. I find bearded dragons will watch a television (or most likely the moving images) though not sure if this is something they enjoy or just a distraction to relief the everyday boredom.

I know moving a large cage can be a pain, and impractical if you can't get help to move your dragon's cage. Perhaps you can spend more time interacting with your dragon (other than taking him to a vet). Take him outside for an hour of natural sunlight (best to keep him in a container, be it a large rubbermaid or a flexarium type cage. Just be sure there are shaded areas in the cage so he can get out of the sun if it is too hot. Also, don't leave him alone out there, stay with him the entire time. Bring a book and something to drink.

I showed him some beardie armwaving, head bobbing videos on the computer yesterday after reading what you said and he barely looked. I interact with him a LOT. I take him out to be with me, he goes on errands - we went to the dump and the bank yesterday ) and he will sit on me while I work. I rear wild silk moths and am sometimes working with the rearing sleeves for a couple hours a day. I bring him with me and keep him on a long leash, usually he just finds a hollow of some sort or bush to hide in. He will not stay in the sun for very long (and this NH, not overly hot). I have not set up either of their sunning cages yet b/c it has been an unusually cool summer so when I take either out it is when the sun is out and/or it is warm enough.

I believe you also mentioned ot place your dragon on a windowsill to get UVB...

he is one the sill with just the screen so he gets no less (and hopefully more) than what he gets from his light.

So you can see, most things have been covered, but I will def. ask the vet about the stress hormone.

thanks so much!
lele
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

And because of that I'm not going to run thru the series of husbandry questions that I normally would because I'm betting that you've already double, triple, checked everything.

I have had him for all but 2 months of his life and have also kept/keep chameleons and other herps so I feel confident in my setups. Believe me, I did my research long before my very first herps, and much of it on the forums which I have been frequenting for years.

As for the stress hormone I will ask my vet about it - thanks for that!

The only other thing I can think of at the moment is it seems like some kind of change was made to the bearide's setup, cage location, room environment change (painted room, etc...

Nope, not a thing. I was going to change his cage around just to shake him up a bit!

Thanks,
lele
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

His "outside of cage" actions also seem to point to stress or fear (Going for dark places or nearest bush). It wouldn't hurt to keep the cat out of the picture for awhile to see if it makes any difference. It would probably take a week or two to see a change in his behavior if it were to be the problem.

I can tell that you don't think the cat is an issue, and you may very well be right, but at this point I feel that you have more to lose by not testing the theory than if you do test it.

I sure hope he gets back on track soon and I can relate to how you must feel helpless to him. Hang in there!

Keep us updated of any changes, if you don't mind, by doing so you'll be helping many other people in the future.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

My office is in the basement of my home. When I bring my male down he will hang out with me a little while, then he will bob his head at his reflection in all the glass terrariums stacked here (lol) and then he finds a place and goes to sleep. This is certainly not stress.

First of all, I hope you do realize that I was just picking at you. I assure you that had you been correct I would have poked fun at myself while acknowledging your theory. Guaranteed.

By the way, for the record, PHLdyPayne had absolutely nothing to do with my gecko post, I just jokingly included her name.

> > > "My office is in the basement of my home. When I bring my male down he will hang out with me a little while, then he will bob his head at his reflection in all the glass terrariums stacked here (lol) and then he finds a place and goes to sleep. This is certainly not stress."

Absolutely no offense intended, I think this is like comparing apples to oranges.

There's not any mentioning of head bobbing or reaction to their reflection.

The dragon in question is in a steady, continuous, lethargic state. Is yours?

Is your dragon's glucose level a little high as this one's is?

Please don't take offense to that. I'm not trying to be a smarty britches, I'm just trying to get you to see where I'm coming from, what I'm looking at. And hopefully without offending you or anyone else.

I'm not updated on all the tests available, maybe you are. It seems to me that they've pretty much exhausted testing resources without finding a sign of any physical abnormalities. Are there other tests that might could find something physically causing this dragon's symptoms?

To me, if there aren't any physical signs, that only leaves mental ones. But I may very well be wrong. I've been wrong before and will be wrong again, now, or in the future.

Well, I've gotta get going. Catch ya later, sport!

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

First of all I am not wrong.

No one is wrong. There is not enough information to make any claim right or wrong.

As I stated earlier the ranges in the blood results were taken on only very closely related dragons. This sample is hardly suitable to be considered normal for all dragons. It should only be taken very loosely at best. If the glucose was say 1000 then it certainly would indicate a problem. Also the diet of the test dragons is substantially different than the diet of lele's dragon. You and LdyPayne can disregard this but that would be your error because we just don't know unless we have those same dragons have the blood test done again with the same diet as lele's dragon.

Then you take a "leap of faith" and deduce that the so called elevated glucose levels are the results of stress. I just can't see how you are coming to this connection. As I said "reptile stress" just seems to be a catch all. LdyPayne pointed out a couple of brain chemicals that to my knowledge were not indicated in the blood tests. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You stated that her dragon hides and that was because he is scared or stressed. I offer a similiar observation and you immediately tear it apart.

What does her dragon do when he sees his reflection? She never said but I bet he'll bob his head and go after it.

I don't remember her ever saying that her dragon is "in a steady, continuous, lethargic state". Was this maybe an exageration?

Obviously I don't casually do blood tests on my dragons.

I offered similarities between a male I have now and her male. I never said that they were exactly the same. I offered my observations in the thought that some of the behaviors described were really normal.

If you want my opinion. I need more information. I have never heard how much he weighs or how long he was. That would be start I did ask for this information farther up on this tread. Really the only thing that may be an issue in my eyes is he doesn't eat enough. But again I can't tell that without more information.

Now my disclaimer. I do not mean to attack or insult anyone either. I just think often people start down a path and never think to retrace their steps and start down another path.

Oh and BTW I find it degrading to be called "sport" I am not a child. I am a 44 year old adult with a lot of experience in dragons.

Heh, with all the differences of opinions someone has to be wrong, and I don't mind if that someone is me, just as long as this discussion leads to the improved state of this Bearded Dragon. That (improved state) is my ultimate goal, not my being right or wrong.

> > > "...I offer a similiar observation and you immediately tear it apart."

Sorry if you felt I was trying to tear apart your observation, that wasn't what I was trying to do. I was merely addressing each component, individually, merely as a means of showing you that it was not similar, in any way except for both dragons being males.

With the things you mentioned in your last post, I can counterclaim each point you made with solid, concrete evidence found right here within this thread by strictly copy/paste and/or provide links to each post.

For instance, you wrote;
> > > "I don't remember her ever saying that her dragon is "in a steady, continuous, lethargic state". Was this maybe an exageration?"

Please refer to: [url]http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1345409,1345927[/ur]
"The whole story is long and ongoing. It boils down to him never really coming out brumation - lethargic (or lazy), won't eat ANY greens/veggies/fruit except applesauce and that is only if I feed him with a spoon that he licks. He doesn't even eat much in the way of insects. He has always been extremely docile, but he basically never moves."

I rest my case. I could go on but what's the point? I see that emotions are already running high enough as it is.

> > > "Oh and BTW I find it degrading to be called "sport" I am not a child. I am a 44 year old adult with a lot of experience in dragons."

I call everybody I think a lot of "sport." I call 6-yr olds "sport," I also call 86-yr olds, 46-yr olds, 16-yr olds, and even 66-yr olds, "sport." I'm forever calling friends/family "sport," "buddy," "fella," "pal," and maybe even a few more friendly, well-meaning nicknames.

I'm a 45-yr old southern, country boy. Did you get that? I just called myself "boy." It means NOTHING. Its the way I talk, its the way a lot of people my age, from the south, talk and relate to other people.

And not only that, the word "sport" that I use is a noun, it is short for "sportsman" which is related to "sportsmanship."

Webster's online dictionary defines it as: 4 a : SPORTSMAN b : a person considered with respect to living up to the ideals of sportsmanship c : a companionable person

In over 6 years of participation of web forums I've had only one other person get offended by my use of "sport." They were young & immature, had a festering inferiority complex, and not because of anything I said or did.

Hoepfully you're past that. Hopefully you just weren't aware of the context I was using the word, the definition I was basing it on. I'm rarely wrong in my judgement of people, very rarely. The jury's still out on this one.
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Different words mean different things in different places. You should refrain from using nicknames with people you don't know. Especially in written form where the receiving person cannot see your facial expression or hear the tone of your voice.

"Heh, with all the differences of opinions someone has to be wrong, and I don't mind if that someone is me, just as long as this discussion leads to the improved state of this Bearded Dragon. That (improved state) is my ultimate goal, not my being right or wrong."

I disagree with part of your statement above. There is not always one right answer to every problem in the world. Often different paths can lead to the same destination.

My issue is you seem to feel that the problem is solved. You have labeled it stress and it is put to bed in your mind. She has constantly eliminated all of the possible stressful situations or items you and others have proposed.

It is only logical to assume that she will take the stress possibility to heart and look for things that could cause this. I offer other possibilities with the same goal in mind as you, to help this dragon.

Yesterday, I removed a fluorescent fixture from an enclosure with 2 dragons in it. I had to pretty much get into the enclosure to redo the wiring and unbolt one of the 3 fixtures. Took me about a half hour. The dragons just watched. When I was done they both ate normally etc. I just don't think stress is all you are making it out to be.

You and her need to consider all the possibilities, that is the reason for a forum like this. Then maybe when there is an improvement you can pass judgement.

Hello Lele,

I know we talked on another forum, but thought I would put the glucose levels that are within the acceptable ranges here for reference. They are roughly 220, but bearded dragons can get hyperglycemia, a precursor to diabetes. Keeping fruit to 1-2 times a week, max, is really all captive bred dragons need.

Tracie

Hey Tracie!
Have you been doing OK?
I knew that you were familiar with this situation, that you must've been involved in some of it's discussions on another forum. Just one of those strong hunches from something that was said earlier.

I was so confident of it I came a hair from telling "lele" to tell you "Hey" for me.

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I don't recall which post it is in but I said his glucose was high before and the vet did urinalysis to double check and came back OK. Well, I confused my animals, that was Cyrus. This is Darwin's first bloodwork
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

to everyone and I apologize for disappearing, just been very busy with a multitude of things and now need to run errands. There are several points I'd like to touch on from everyone's posts and will do so later today. Darwin will be going on errands with me as he is being frumpy and is quite happy when he gets to go in the car and hang on to my chest! Yes, he always has a leash on - just in case. This was one of the comments I wanted to make - he gets a LOT of human (and cat) interaction. Since he is living solo in the bedroom I have him in here (office) with me or sunning on the kitty window seat.

more later...

lele

here is his award winning photo taken last year. No, he is not scared (many on the other forum thought so b/c of his eyes) he is a translucent, thus has black eyes

-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Just wanted to say that I really love the photo.

Great job of capturing the moment.

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

won first place last year on another BD forum Kyndra is his favorite cat, Lita could care less - if anything I think she may be jealous of HIM! But she is a needy little girl
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hi
yes great picture .
dont apolozise atleast you know if you have trouble (like i got in the begining )
people always can help you little bit .
byeeeee
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www.dragoncave.nl