Reptile & Amphibian Forums

And it's a thing that is sorely lacking in attempts to manage nongame reptiles and amphibians.

Data.

This kind of thing has gotten passing mention in the past, but I think now is a good time to start fleshing out the concept. We as a group spend thousands of hours yearly in intimate contact with herps and their natural environment. Just think what it would cost TPW to obtain the kind of information on numbers, activity periods, environmental conditions, road (and other) mortality, predators and prey,and numbers/species collected that we can provide with very little extra effort, just as a part of our normal activities.

Such info could be collected as part of the normal permitting process under a (now hypothetical) "herp or nongame tag/permit". It could be voluntary, or a requirement (or both-as in certain basic data might be required to be reported, while more in depth info would be voluntary).

In this way we could demonstrably contribute to the conservation of the herps we seek and admire. And it would help us to be seen as partners rather than mere consumers of the resource.

Any thoughts?

Brad Chambers

Absolutely.

I'm sure many on this forum could design a good form for the data. The bigger challenge will be creating a database to store, manage, consolidate, and interpret the data.

A good excel spreadsheet would be adequate for a small group working with limited data, but this will have to be much more robust and flexible.

Anyone here handy with Access or something along those lines?

you've been reading my correspondence!

Here's a quote I've sent to TP&W and the Legislators

"Hobbyist collectors, the largest data set

TP&WD should embrace non-protected non-game species collection and observation from public roads and right of ways for the data source this group represents. Create and sell non-game permits or stamps to increase revenues for non-game management and solicit or require observational and collection data from every permitted individual. Lack of data is the biggest problem facing the management of non-game species."

...are similarly warped!

Brad Chambers

Brad..........I seem to recall that back in 2000 or so, TP&W came out with that commercial permit that required Texas herpers to report what they were selling. I don't recall if it made any distinction between captive bred or wild caught animals. Correct me if I'm in error her, as I am not a Texas resident. They have had several years to compile data on the "herp industry" in Texas. Has anyone asked TP&W about how these reports had any weight in the passing of HB12? It seemed this whole ball got rolling due to the collection of river turtles for an Asian food market. I don't see anything in this new law that prevents trapping turtles in any public waterway. Am I missing something here?

there is no data on many species like gray-bands, milks, bulls, glossy, rat snakes etc. because they were not on the list of affected species.

Most of the data is Rattlesnakes and Turtles. The bulk of it anyway.

Joe.........On a side note, I'm kind of under the impression that Texas still allows the gassing of rattlesnake dens. Florida made this illegal quite some time ago. In my state, this was a practice that was primarily used in central Florida in years past, and the practice was to pour gasoline down gopher tortoise holes to drive out EDB's. Ross Allen at Silver Springs was a famous practitioner of this method of collection. While it gets reptiles to come out real quick, it is fatal to amphibs, and I'm not real sure how it affected the tortoises........probably not well. I would try pushing for an outlawing of this practice in your state. This point could prove to be a test on the true intent of TP&W to do be proper stewards of all of their resources............even non-game. Just a thought!

Ban to gassing dens and tight control on method of take will bring the large scale commercial collector under some control.

I was thinking along the lines of TPW having an online form which could be easily and conveniently filled out from our field notes after every trip. But perhaps it would be advantageous for us to maintain the database ourselves, while providing access to TPW...

Brad Chambers

Great idea!

I have collected DORs for more than a decade and I actually have 12 new county records for Florida because of my work.

Herp Atlas projects allow collection of field data by amateur herpers. Maybe we should start one in this state.

Weather data is also something that is lacking in many museum collection records and there are very few published accounts with detailed weather data. Everyone needs to get a Kestrel Handheld Weather Station and a GPS unit.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Already have the GPS-but what's the Kestrel (besides a wimpy grasshopper falcon)?

Brad Chambers

It is a bad ass handheld weather station that gets a bunch of different weather readings. They have several different models. But it doesn't have everything. I was thinking on getting a Kestrel and also an IR thermometer that shoots 50/1 to get the snakes temp but not the substrate around it. And for day herping some kind of UV/light meter and maybe a soil moisture/temp probe.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Mike.........Being a Florida boy, you have piqued my curiosity. Send me an e-mail and we can chat about Florida herping. I'm hoping you Texas guys can resolve your issues. We both know that this HB12 does nothing to conserve non-game wildlife in the state of Texas. It seems to me to be a lose/lose law. The herpetoculturist loses access to herps, and the state loses license revenue.

TP&W loses the data source, towns lose critical revenue stream, we lose a lifestyle, the field wardens lose the ability to enforce efficiently, TP&W loses license revenue from non-game collectors and observers, the pet industry loses peripheral sales,

how many more losses can we identify?

The biggest loss is the fact that your elected representatives are once again beholding to the interests that are financing their immediate political livelihoods. Any non-paying constituents.........be damned! I wish you luck for all of your efforts.

There is also alot of national sales lost on stuff like cameras, flashlights, vehicle accessory lights, boots, camping gear, GPS units. I know many people who have factored in snakehunting for what type of car they will buy and what features it will have.
I know at least one guy who bought a retirement/vacation home in Texas because he likes to snake hunt there and I will probably do the same.

That was the primary reason for my own recent move to Texas.

Brad Chambers

Was looking to purchase land in Ft Davis in August, after all this, I am not for sure if i will go through with it or not, i still love the country though and have friends there so probably will. Clark

museums lose DORs from at a minimium private herpers.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I know Shell will be callin' me and askin' me why my gas bill went down by half each month!
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Todd Hughes

Steve G,

I will shoot you an email but I am a Texas resident now.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

projects are mainly distributional surveys-far more limited than what I personally have in mind. After all, we have hundreds of expert observes, accustomed to spending long hours in the field and analyzing all manner of environmental factors as they relate to herp movements. Our combined efforts over the course of many seasons, added to what we could glean from literally decades of accurate field logs, would represent a truly vast amount of data.

If we apply ourselves to this it could lead to something unprecedented in herpetology.

Brad Chambers

Brad,

Right on! Like I said in one of my other posts I have been expounding to academia for at least 5 years about how valuable we are. We spend more time in the field then most academics by a long shot.

We could gather an immense amount of data but we need to have protocols so our data is consistent across the board and can be used scientifically.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I would be more than willing to fill out data sheets and provide them to a database for TPWD. I travel the entire coast of Texas and make extensive forays into the roads less traveled, thus viewing many, many species a year. Literally thousands of herps are seen alive and dead on the road, and I take the time to document many of them.
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Todd Hughes

is all about field data for herps. Extensive data sheets, on line submission, regional chapters, etc. Check out the main site at naherp-dot-com. How different things might have been now if NRAAC had stayed viable. Problem was that no one (herpers in general) believed that these days were coming. Joe & Jeff were ahead of their time back then. At least we gave it a shot. Keep up the hammering.

Eimon

Eimon, I think you would be a perfect candidate to be involved in a HCU-Cali effort. The constitution is being voted on now and should be up immediately. We want global herp coverage, eventually! LOL! Contact Joe and give him some more insight on your area, por favor!
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Todd Hughes