Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Lets play Goldilocks and the Three Bears for a second. Boids are too large, kings/milks/corns are too small, pines/bulls/gophers are just right. So why are the "perfect" sized snakes written off?

I think the pit market is going to increase, maybe even explode.
There are so many young folk growing up right now with ball pythons and corns and kings in the home, that when they get out and on their own - a lot of them are going to look for something different.

I think the hybrid market may take some of them, but I bet a lot of them are going to discover pits.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

I think that the people in the know do not write these animals off. They are not difficult to care for but aren't for "everyone". from a commercial point of view, as long as I have been working with pits I have never had a problem selling healthy well represented offspring. A healthy pituophis is a real treasure to any hobbyist. They may not be front page news but I am OK with that.
daveb

n/p
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Well said Dave. Right now Pits are far more popular than just a couple of years ago. I do still run into some of the old school thinking when I set up at shows and now and then other vendors will come by my table and look at me funny, make a comment about having nothing but Pits, and then move on. Thats fine with me too because the people making comments like that or that "dismiss" Pituophis are not the people that I want owning a Pit anyway. They are usually the money mongers or fly by nighters. We (the Pit community) are made up of people that legitimately love this genus. Look at some of the names that have been here for years. John Ginter, John Cherry (I know you still lurk ), Billy, Jason Nelson, Shannon Brown, KJ, and the list goes on. Its great to see the new faces too. That in itself shows that the Pits are gaining in popularity. Like Dave said, it doesn't bother me either that Pits aren't at the forefront, and any true herp lover will not deny a stunning deppei, sayi, etc!!!!!!!!!! Take care all!

Jeremy

Lets play Goldilocks and the Three Bears for a second. Boids are too large, kings/milks/corns are too small, pines/bulls/gophers are just right. So why are the "perfect" sized snakes written off?

I've noticed at reptile shows years ago that alot of people would be interested in certain pits because of their colors but were quickly turned off by the hissing and open mouthed strikes once they handled the animal,but I assume this will change more and more after people get sick of getting pooped on by the smaller colubrids and having to deal with the longterm prospect of owning a python that gets 18 feet long. Just an observation. You really never see pits in many pet stores or even pet shops that specialize in reptiles and I believe its because of the the above mentioned bluffing that most baby pits will display which makes them cool to me. Kevin

I think they are overlooked because of stereotyping. People remember their one experience with a hissing striking bullsnake and will never get passed that even when they see tame pet bulls. They stereotype to save brain space, we all do. Getting people to rethink things can be like pulling teeth.

Plus people think they can just go out and catch a bullsnake so why buy one? But I disagree. Around here (Oklahoma) "bullsnake" is often used generically for any large snake. I've come across hundreds and hundreds of snakes and have NEVER even seen a bullsnake in Oklahoma (other than the Zoo). Not even a dead one. Its pretty sad because they used to be common.

That's one I often hear with Cal Kings - why buy one when you can catch one?

By the time you have diagnosed, treated, and retested for internal parasites which WC snakes frequently have, you could have bought several better looking CB specimens that are far less likely to have those nasties.
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3.6 L. getula californiae - 16 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Good post. The bulk of my experience is mainly w/ Gophers, but I love the genus as a whole and extol their virtues every chance I get. I find that once you begin to mention the numerous positives associated w/ keeping these snakes people are quite intrigued.

reako45

Don't advertise the merits of the pituophis group, we will end up as bad as the corn folks are. LOL All of us here know they are the perfect animal for captivity, but a few of us have had them for years and the entire deal was a well kept secert to say the least.

Just kidding folks they are becoming more and more cherished each year.

John's right!...........Most pits thrive in your normal air conditioned homes and are very easy to get to thrive. I'm somewhat amused by the Ball Python morphs. Except for the piebalds, they really don't show much in the way of color complexity or differentiality. It's become pretty much of a marketing "hype" industry. I work with my jani, because I believe there is as much color locked up in this species as any corn snake, much less a ball python. I do like northern pines as well. Hard to beat a big northern pine as an exhibition/hands on animal. Don't let the pose fool you, this big guy is puppy dog tame!

Good to see you here John! That is a beautiful deppei there. Take care!

Jeremy

You know it is you who got me in to them...lol. i thought it would only be yellow bulls, but of course now i have pines and gophers along with red bulls...lol. They are awesome pets.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

All their delicups are buried under the hundreds of ball pythons and corns at the shows......
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

>>Lets play Goldilocks and the Three Bears for a second. Boids are too large, kings/milks/corns are too small, pines/bulls/gophers are just right. So why are the "perfect" sized snakes written off?

Im also a big fan of ratsnakes.Size, I have some nice size bairdi that will keep up with any pit almost.lol.
Im so sick of ball pythons I could scream.I pray to the norse gods that I can go to a big show and find some cool pits and rats.

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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

I don't know, but popularity seems to bring hybridizers. In that way, I like working with a little popular group of animals.........lol.

Seriously, some of us have been working to try to increase the popularity of these guys. Hopefully, some readily available information will get more people excited about the group. I knoe some ofthe new thingscoming it is even re-kindling MY excitment (I never lost the love) for some Pituophis subspecies....

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

pits all the way. i am planing to expand some pits into my collection. i am very excited to breed these snakes. hopefully people will come around and give a try with these guys.

They (Pituophis), generally are not bright red, they sell for pennies, they crap big nasty piles of digested rat, and they often act like blood thirsty killers......I am with you, I can not understand why they are not "more popular"?

My love for the genus is steeped in the complexities of childhood memories, a love of subtle beauty, an interest in biology and biogeography, and well.....you have got to admire that personality!

Iam with the rest of you, let's keep it our own secrete. Those that find us Pit loving fools are welcome but there is no need to advertise. The Pit lovers are an odd group.

>>They (Pituophis), generally are not bright red, they sell for pennies, they crap big nasty piles of digested rat, and they often act like blood thirsty killers......I am with you, I can not understand why they are not "more popular"?

Hmmm, sounds like my sisters.....
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KJUN Snakehaven

Honestly, they can be written off by others for all I care.

In some ways, less attention is good for the fact that hybrid lovers may stay away from buying them. K.J. made a good point in his post.

More attention cause if everyone who likes snakes knew how much fun it is to own them, they could experience what we are into.

I always say that my hobby started all over when I got into pits. I had heard much bogus information about bulls for years, and thank God I actually decided to learn more about them and then to discover that what I was fixing to own was the greatest type of snake in existence: Pits!

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Genesis 1:1

You have some real Beauties there Billy.
I love those outdoor shots. Great photography.
Kevin

Thank you sir!
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Genesis 1:1

Hi

I wondered the same thing for years after getting my first Pituophis but from what I've noticed they are slowly increasing in popularity. I was just told by a friend that was a vendor at a recent CA show that a lot of people were looking for anything Pituophis. And with the up and coming Pituophis book in the works I think it would definitely bump the Pituophis popularity. Lots of people are definitely missing out in keeping this cool genus.

Here's some pics of Pituophis on the opposite sides of the spectrum.
Speckled axanthic white-sided bullsnake

A wild pacific gophersnake from around the home town.

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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

I LOVE that Speckled axanthic white-sided bullsnake.
I wish we could get ours hands on those in Canada.
Thanks for sharing.
Kevin

Jonel,
Who's the author and who's publishing the pit book that you mentioned?
Brad

Hi Brad

It's Pituophis Lover Extraordinaire (LOL), Mr. KJ Lodrigue Jr. himself. It's still in the works and he needs some Pituophis habitat photographs if you have any. Just ask him about the details. I'm really glad this is coming along since another book about Pituophis is long overdue since the last TFH book that came out more than a decade ago. Take care.

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Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

I don't mind people overlooking the pits,let them have thier balls and boas. Big lumps of uber expensive snakes lol! After I get my spilotes the next on the list is some high white northerns! Theres also nothing better then finding them in the wild, pissed as all get out till you get them in your hands and then they seem as mellow as any of my captives.
Nate

and a good looking baby, the smallest i've seen in my parts

Some excellent points raised guys
I personally have been keeping/breeding exclusively pituophis for 15 or so years now and love 'em even more these days.
I think the time will come when more and more colubrid breeders/keepers start to 'cotton on' to what we all already know.
I think i have a slighty different viewpoint than most on this forum due to the fact i'm in the U.K. and therefore i can only comment from a U.K./European standpoint....
To me it seems like real exciting times over there in the U.S., especially with all the amazing locale specific animals and new colour morphs im seeing on here.Compared to when i first began using this forum many years back the amount of interest/keepers has indeed increased nicely.

Over here i'm the only person who specialises in pits and one of a handful in Europe
I'm defo seeing more interest in my pit offspring over the last 2-3 yrs and there also seems to be a few more people branching out from corns,kings etc into gophers.
Im always amazed how many herpers are not aware of the sheer amount of stunning pits available today and are instantly taken when they see my stuff at shows.

All the Best everyone...........Rgds.AL

Pits are awesome animals

At NC State me and some guys made our way down to the sandhills (Scotland and Moore County) and found this guy, a 58' pine

Needless to say, we were pumped

S/L/G =

Same reason Sand/Glossy/ Longnose snakes are dismissed. They have always been considered garbage snakes that collectors threw off to the side while looking for kings, boas, milks ect.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

except for the fact that they are not rodent eaters by nature

I have 3 Glossies that I got (I won't even call it "switched"eating rodents w/ relative ease. The last of these 3 I offered unscented pinks only, and he's eating regularly.
Bluerosy, I feel the same way about the snakes you mentioned, esp. about Glossies.

reako45

Thanks

>>Same reason Sand/Glossy/ Longnose snakes are dismissed. They have always been considered garbage snakes that collectors threw off to the side while looking for kings, boas, milks ect.

No, those aren't "good" snakes that eat pink mice right out the egg. Saying they were considered garbage snakes, so they were ignored is silly. They were considered garbage snakes BECAUSE they were ignored. The question is: why were they ignored? They answer, I'm sure, is more complex than they weren't showy (like alterna) or good feeders (especially CB babies) but those two facts have a lot to do with it. Humans also tend to like RARE. As a general rule, things that are super common are "always" overlooked by the people that see a lot of them. Of course, some of us love the locally abundant stuff BECAUSE they are local and, well, abundant. It's what we grew up seeing.

.....but saying they were ignored because they were considered trash doesn't answer the question - it just re-states it: "Why were they considered trash?"

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

No, those aren't "good" snakes that eat pink mice right out the egg.

The sand snakes eat crickets. They are a whole lot easier to keep than any mouse feeder, AND THEY ALL EAT!. The Glossys I bred and produced ate pinks right out of the egg (western spp) and acted just like corn snakes when it came to feeding. i think its just the texas spp that are hard to get on mice. Kinda like the western and eastern hognoses, ya know!
The only ones that are difficult out of the 3 I picked are the Longnose (which insist on lizards). I could pick another garbage snake that eats just fine instead of the Longnose, if you want.

"Saying they were considered garbage snakes, so they were ignored is silly. They were considered garbage snakes BECAUSE they were ignored."

semantics. The facts still state.

"The question is: why were they ignored? They answer, I'm sure, is more complex than they weren't showy (like alterna) or good feeders (especially CB babies) but those two facts have a lot to do with it."

See above about the feeders. The showy part is a matter of interest. Basically once others start liking them others will follow. Its the idiot effect or whatever you want to call it.

"Humans also tend to like RARE. As a general rule, things that are super common are "always" overlooked by the people that see a lot of them. Of course, some of us love the locally abundant stuff BECAUSE they are local and, well, abundant. It's what we grew up seeing."

I grew up seeing tons of gopher snakes in calif. If you lived out there and saw them all over the roads and while field collecting you would not pay much attention to them either....
...well maybe not YOU. But how many people have written a book on pits.

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

You make it sound like you think anything west of Texas counts.....lol.
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KJUN Snakehaven

Maybe its the keeled scales. At least that what it is for me. Look at water snakes, garter snakes ect. The only snake with keeled scales that people show an interest for have been western hognoses and mexican hogs. And if their heads were not so cute they would also not be popular. And since you mentioned the east coast west coast thing, they also happen to be from the west coast but that has nothing to do with it because if easterns woiuld eat mice then I am sure they would have been as prolific in the hobby.

The keeled thing is just my guess and my guts telling me because thats what turned me off of pits.

Imagine if you would a pit with SMOOTH scales. Gosh I would want to keep all of them if thay had smooth scales. They would be awesomely georgeous!... Maybe also take about 12" of length off of adults so they are shorter and stouter and not eat and deficate so much. All that extra length reminds me of ratsnakes as well. I guess I just like shorter thicker snakes.. Don't need all that extra metabolism messing up cages and costing so much to feed. Add the smooth scales with all the nice colored morphs and we would have the most popular snake in the hobby to keep and breed.

One thing I will say is I don't like any pits that are hybridized. They make for terrible hybrids and do nothing to imporove the look. I would like to see all the pits kept to as pure or locale specific as possible. No reason to warrant an already unpopluar snake species any more than they already are IMO.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

>>Imagine if you would a pit with SMOOTH scales. Gosh I would want to keep all of them if thay had smooth scales. They would be awesomely georgeous!...

No, the rough scales are what I like, BUT if smooth scalled Pituophis would be a hit, then I think more people would be after Mole snakes. The babies are small, but that means the clutch sizes are larger. They are about the size of an averag bullsnake, but not as thick as a south Texas bull.

> Maybe also take about 12" of length off of adults so they are shorter and stouter and not eat and deficate so much.

Like a deserticola? LOL. The average adult is about cornsnake size from MANY localities - similar girth, too. Still rough scales, but I think what hurts them is that they only lay 5-8 or so. This means a breeder could feed a mouse a week to a snake and get 20 eggs (not counting doubles) from a corn of 6 from a deserticola. Fewer breeders means less morphs/variations available and less interest over all. All of this is PART of the problem.

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

I think i'm gonna sell my blackpines and get some black milks or maybe a mbk. And while I'm at it get rid of the gophers and start getting glossies.lol!

Wouldn't sand paper be cheaper?
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6.8 L. getula californiae - 11 eggs (Cal. King)
1.2 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

What about fox snakes?
Allegedly pituophis is a descendent of the fox snake - at least that was what one guy who looked at the genes said (I forget the paper).

Anyway - fox snakes don't look that different from some of the pines, and only have weakly keeled scales.

-=-
My single gopher eats a lot more than kings of similar size, and she poops more, and when she poops - it virtually always is in the water dish ... my kings sometimes do that but usually not.
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6.8 L. getula californiae - 11 eggs (Cal. King)
1.1 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
3.3 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - 14 eggs (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

>>What about fox snakes?
>>Allegedly pituophis is a descendent of the fox snake - at least that was what one guy who looked at the genes said (I forget the paper).

No, his data supported the hypothesis that they aresister taxa. That doesn't mean theyare descended from fox snakes or that fox snakes are descended from these guys. It means that his data supports the idea that they have the same common ancestor.

...just like we aren't descended from chimps or vice versa, but all available data says that we have the same common ancestor...which was a chimp-like animal.

Big difference....... (I'm picturing a redneck bullsnake in a white hat saying "I ain't descended from no dern rat snake!" LOL.)

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

I AGREE WITH LLOYD THER ARE TOO MANY BALL OUT THERE I WENT TO A SHOW IN WHITE PLAINS NY ALL THE TABLES ARE 4 DEEP IN BALLS NO THERE WERE SOME BULLS AND A FEW MEXICAN PINES NO GOPHERS THESE ANIMALS SHOULD BE OUTTHERE A LITTLE MORE EXPOSED

there were some gophers at white plains show, i got a pair of sonorans het albino. i got it from bob his table were at the enterance side and was a small table set up along with 3 neos cages (small cages). he was over at the corner of the show room.