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I've got a buddy who thinks that the best snake is a dead snake, so I jumped at the opportunity today to rescue (what I believe to be) a grey rat snake.

The snake had crawled inside one of his bluebird houses and shed its skin, which was hanging out of the hole. The locale is right along the Chattanooga, TN - Northwest Georgia border (Lookout Mt. area). If it's a grey rat, then it's a little outside it's normal range (see map)

Wondered if you thought it was a pure grey rat or possibly an integrade?

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1.2.0 Emory's Rat Snake (amel and het for amel)
1.0.0 Ball Python (het for amel)

Looks like a normal Gray to me. I have a CB one about the same coloring. The map you linked to shows it coming from an area where there are both Gray and Bkacks but mostly snakes that look somewhere in between.

Obviously not a Grey Ratsnake, but a Black x Yellow intergrade. A very common snake in that area.

Keep that little 'race traitor' away from those nazi herpetoculturists, LOL.

That pattern on the black rat snake is what we see most often in Oklahoma and call a "Texas rat snake." It seems that generally the more east and north you move, the darker they get and the less the patterns are apparent. I suppose you could call that intergrading, as it seems all the various rat snakes seem to blend together by interbreeding along their habitat boundaries.

I live near Chattanooga..You guys are crazy..Yellow rat/black rat intergrade very common in that area LOL..Its simply a black rat snake..Still young..most likley will darken up..Ive seen several like that..Being on lookout Mountain it could possibly have some gray influence..but that range is mostly just black rats..A rat doesnt have to be black to be a black rat..Just look at KY black rats for example. They look very similar.

Thanks all! Seems that either way you slice it, rat snakes make it difficult to tell them apart (esp. in overlapping ranges). I love the color on this one. The longer I look at it, the more interesting it seems (grey head, yellowish stripes on the side, dark brown bands on the back, orange & white on the underbelly).

If I keep it then I suppose in time I'd know if it was simply a black (assuming it would darken up). I've just had it overnight and intend to release it this afternoon (assuming a buddy of mine does not want it).
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1.2.0 Emory's Rat Snake (amel and het for amel)
1.0.0 Ball Python (het for amel)

I agree. Here's a big black rat I found in Ohio a couple of years ago that retained quite a bit of pattern:

Third Eye

Technically, you're right. Indeed, not all Black Ratsnakes are black. And these Chattanooga Ratsnakes live within the area of the Black Ratsnake. When you look at the rangemap of Pantherophis obsoletus, you see these clearcut lines dividing it's range into subranges, dividing the species into subspecies. In reality however, there aren't any lines. Black and Yellow Ratsnakes interbreed extensively wherever their ranges meet, and their genes introgress over hundreds of miles in both directions. This goes for most if not all subspecies, and the enormous amount of clinal variation resulting from this has always posed a problem in determining subspecies validity.

Maybe it would be best to just call them Chattanooga Ratsnakes instead. Sounds good to me.

>>I've got a buddy who thinks that the best snake is a dead snake, so I jumped at the opportunity today to rescue (what I believe to be) a grey rat snake.
>>
>>The snake had crawled inside one of his bluebird houses and shed its skin, which was hanging out of the hole. The locale is right along the Chattanooga, TN - Northwest Georgia border (Lookout Mt. area). If it's a grey rat, then it's a little outside it's normal range (see map)
>>
>>Wondered if you thought it was a pure grey rat or possibly an integrade?
>>
>>
>>

I live in Chattanooga.
There is definitely no yellow rat in that snake.
At most grey/black intergrade but more then likely just a typical black rat from this area.
Seen many many like it.
Greys don't really reach into the Chattannooga valley.
>>
>>
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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>>>>I've got a buddy who thinks that the best snake is a dead snake, so I jumped at the opportunity today to rescue (what I believe to be) a grey rat snake.
>>>>
>>>>The snake had crawled inside one of his bluebird houses and shed its skin, which was hanging out of the hole. The locale is right along the Chattanooga, TN - Northwest Georgia border (Lookout Mt. area). If it's a grey rat, then it's a little outside it's normal range (see map)
>>>>
>>>>Wondered if you thought it was a pure grey rat or possibly an integrade?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>I live in Chattanooga.
>>There is definitely no yellow rat in that snake.
>>At most grey/black intergrade but more then likely just a typical black rat from this area.
>>Seen many many like it.
>>Greys don't really reach into the Chattannooga valley.
>>>>
>>>>
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>>Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
>>"Resistance is futile"
>>Jimmy Johnson
>>(Draybar)
>> Draybars Snakes
>>
>>_____
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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

My 2 cents...

That would be an Intergrade Black X Gray Ratsnake (Elaphe o. obsoleta X spiloides), with the Black being predominant. Both Tennant and Conant show N. GA up through E. TN as intergrade zones for these ssps. - Basicly the Tennessee River Valley up to about the Tri-Cities area.

I have seen a number of Black Rats from this area (N. GA to NE. TN) and all have some degree of combination of traits. Many have a lot of red, like yours, and all have distinct patterns, even large full-grow individuals. Many are quite handsome.

Chattanooga is an interesting area for snakes. Not only do you have the highly variable Black Rat crosses, there are also Eastern X Black Kingsnake crosses (Lampropeltus g. getlua X nigra) to be found. Not to mention the separate-yet-equal presence of both Eastern Milksnakes and Scarlet Kingsnakes (L. t. triangulum and L. t. elapsoides), which hybridize on the other side of the Smokies.

Very nice animal - Its not too far from Oak Ridge if you need a home for him!

Regards,

John DeMelas

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

John, Thanks for your thoughts. I concur, especially that the Chattanooga area has a lot to offer. I really need to get out into the field more (and bring the kids, too). Unfortunately, I live just over the border in Georgia (home of the draconian herping laws where you can't keep native species...even captive breds and morphs). When my fellow herping buddy in Tennessee declined to take it, I released the snake. It was a beauty.
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1.2.0 Emory's Rat Snake (amel and het for amel)
1.0.0 Ball Python (het for amel)

Ive caught several specimens like that around the Fort payne Area of AL which isnt far from Chattanooga. Ive noticed that the rats around here will stay more grayish until there third or even fourth year..And then they start to eventually they will darkin up ..And with that specimen..he will be pretty black..Still have the remaining blotches ..and more of that red will show through..Keep him and I can gurantee you

Happy to share!

Good job on the release.

Tennessee has the same kind of laws on the books about wild caught herps, but they are generally don't go after anyone unless there is a complaint. Ironicly, all you need is a fishing license to take turtles and frogs for the table - but not to keep them captive.

Happily, TN does have a permit process by which one can import WC/CB herps and set up a breeding facillity.

Regards,

John DeMelas

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!