Reptile & Amphibian Forums

kahl X sharp= 100% het sharp & kahl right? soooooo.... what would this make?

100% sharp & kahl het X 100% sharp & kahl het =
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

anyone tried it? really been bugging me to find out what would happen or if anyone has done it. thankss guys.

The two types of albino genes are incompatible.

The results of the two separate gene combinations for het x het are:

1/4 sharp albino
2/4 het sharp albino
1/4 normal

1/4 kahl albino
2/4 het kahl albino
1/4 normal

............

Multiply out all the possible combinations and you get:

1/16 sharp/kahl albino
2/16 sharp albino/ het kahl albino
1/16 sharp albino non-het for kahl

2/16 kahl albino, het sharp albino
4/16 het sharp / het kahl
2/16 het sharp albino non-het for kahl

1/16 kahl albino, not het for sharp
2/16 het kahl albino, not het for sharp
1/16 fully normal, not het for either

...........
But, since you won't be able to tell hets from non-hets, you will actually get...

1/16 Kahl/Sharp albino (if these do wind up looking different from plain kahl or sharp albinos)
3/16 Sharp albinos 66% possibly het for kahl
3/16 Kahl albinos, 66% possibly het for sharp
9/16 normal-looking, 66% possibly het for sharp, 66% possibly het for kahl

I might have that last percentage possibility percentage off. But I think the reason no one has really done this yet, ESPECIALLY with two hets, is that it is so hard to keep track of the possible hets. Also, how do you know for sure that one high-conrast Kahl albino isn't actually a Sharp with complete certainty? Sounds like a nightmare to keep track of, though I am curious to see what the complete kahl/sharp albino would look like if the mutations somehow layer on the skin differently.
-----
Lauren Madar - OphidiaGems.com | CageMakers
1.0 Ball Python, 1.0 Hog Island Boa (RIP DeeDee), 1.1 Hypo BCI, 1.1 Surinam BCC, 0.1 Green Tree Python

>100% sharp & kahl het X 100% sharp & kahl het =

Expected results:
9/16 normal looking (66% probability het Sharp, 66% probability het Kahl)
3/16 Sharp albino (66% probability het Kahl albino)
3/16 Kahl albino (66% probability het Sharp albino)
1/16 Kahl albino, Sharp albino

As far as I know, nobody has actually done this cross. But I'm out in the boonies and could easily be wrong.

Another question is how easy it is to tell the difference between a Sharp and a Kahl albino and between a combination Kahl and Sharp albino and the individual albinos. I'm not familiar enough with the two albinos to be able to answer that. It is possible that the albinos might need to be lumped together, producing an expected result of 9/16 normal looking and 7/16 albino (Kahl, Sharp, and the combo). This sort of result has happened in crossing whites in birds and mammals. As always, observed results are likely to not be an exact match with the expected results.

Hope that helps.

Paul Hollander

As i remember the history of this questioned compatiblity discussed in the past, it seemed so few reliable breedings had been done that there was no definitive answer. If anyone has successfully bred the two genes together i would love hear the details of their results.

For some time, I have always been both curious and skeptical about this incompatibility of the Kahl & Sharp Albinos, primarily because I have not heard of many breedings.

If someone wants to test/re-test this "incompatibility" and still have a little extra sizzle ... I would breed a Kahl Albino Het Anery (aka Snow) with a Sharp Albino Het Anery (aka Snow). These results could answer a lot of questions and maybe raise some new ones.

I only have a single pair of 2005 Kahl Albinos Het Anery (Snow) and the pair is actually Coral. If someone has a female Sharp Albino Het Anery (Snow), I might be willing to team up and try this breeding.

Bill Gaines

bill@gainesreptiles.com

GainesReptiles.com

maybe a Kahl albino jungle X a Sharp albino and then you could breed two of the jungles back to each other and still have jungles and super jungles even if you couldn't differentiate the albinos. It would sure create a lot of animals with the ability to produce either strain with. Hmmm...
-----
Ty
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

I know the breeding was done with a Sharp and Kahl. The outcome was a bunch or normals. Those were then after put down for whatever reason. I've heard the story plenty of times but always forget all the details.

Second, why would you want to breed a line of albino's that Keep their color and actually gain it as they grow, with a line that starts out nice and then dulls out after time(90% of the time)? I personally don't know!

Third, I think the person with the Sharp het snow(eventhough there aren't any 100% het snow Sharp albinos out there. yet!)would have the say in the deal wether or not they might want to do the breeding. Which I doubt you'd find such a person but you never know. All i'm saying is the Sharp het snow would be the more valuble animal and usually the person with the higher end animal has the say.

I personally think it should be left alone cause the answers already out there. They are not compatable. At the same time this question comes up every few months mostly asked by newer people to the hobby. Which is great cause that means they're getting into it and trying to learn. I guess I should've thought of that before I wrote but oh well. Hope the info helps.

I have been around for a few years and my source is Brian Sharp who sites only 1 isolated breeding which indicated that they were incompatible ... I believe a Het x Albino (I forget which was which). In my opinion, it wasn't very scientificly conclusive ... in Pete's first Albino litter in 1992, I believe the first 18 were normals before 3 Albinos came out in a litter of 21 (best I can recall from memory). There may be others, but I have not come across them ... your response should include some reputable sources and specific facts.

Secondly, somewhere you went astray and bought into all the hype about the Sharp strains. As they say, it's all about money ... I will leave it at that.

Thirdly, I am not looking for any breeder loans or particular deals ... I actually do not believe in them and have done only 1 in the past 20 years. I simply threw something out there because I thought the project might be fun and we all might learn something from it. You seem to have gotten lost in the "money game" ... as far as I am concerned the other guy could have the entire litter ... I don't need them.

And lastly, your response if argumentative ... it is reponses exactly like yours that keeps me (and others) off the forums.

Color me GONE ... Bill

Personally I think the albino debate has turned into a bit of racism. The guys that are into Sharps do nothing but down Kahls. And that ain't right!!!! If we would all focus on the thing that got us into this "THE LOVE OF BOA CONSTRICTORS"!!!!!!And not the the $$$$$$$$$$ we would all be better off. I went through a little depressed period this year because I felt like I was getting too caught up in the $business$ side of things. I was spending more time answering e-mails than I was cleaning cages. I have fixed that!!!! I produced three litters of Kahl/Original line Sunglows this year and each one of them had animals with totally different looks than the next litter. I own both Sharp and Kahls and the thing I have noitced is that there are things that Kahls do that Sharps don't and things Sharps do that Kahls don't!!! I may not be some "Master" well known breeder, but I have produced at least 100 Kahl strain albinos in my time and I just feel that comments like an animal has the "KAHLS" are unfair. Keep what makes you happy because in the end it's all going to become as common as a corn snake!!!!

Bill, when I produce a Sharp Het. Snow I will send you one in a heartbeat!!!! I think the one think we should have all learned by now is it never hurts to try!!!!!!!!!!!

All animals except the first pic a "SHARP" were produced by me!!!!

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

was there not a question asked? I simply answered the question and clearly stated that I forgot all the details. Chris Gilbert seems to have the whole story down. Maybe he'll see this and post it. I was just trying to give the guy an answer real quick and was on my way out the door. I will give my reasons why I think this breeding should be left alone in more detail in another post.

Second where in there did I turn it into a money thing? I simply stated the facts and all I said was that the Sharp would be the more valuble of the two animals. I don't know why you felt it was necessary to try to make it look like I was making it a money thing twice. Little weird. It's not a money thing at all. Is it not the person with the more valuble animal in breeding loans that has more of the say how things go? I mean,if I had a nice normal female and my buddy has a motley whos going to get the bigger half of the litter. Why can't I state the facts without it being a money thing? Huh Bill????

Last, I think my whole response was takin out off context. I give my opinion about Sharps cause they are my favorite line of albino. Bill, i've seen you stand up for your snows and the snow project many of times. All i'm doing is the same. When I compare Sharps to Kahl it's because i've had both and my main reason for getting into boas was I wanted an albino. My first morph was a Kahl albino. I saw pix of older ones and they just didn't look that good. Then one day I saw a Sharp adult and I was hooked. So, your going to give me crap cause I stand up for what I like? Thats like me giving you crap for having so much snow stock. Anyways didn't mean to offend anyone, just thought this was a place for people to give opinons and give and get answers. I will admit my response was short and not a lot of facts and details but I do believe I mentioned that.

Ruben Michel

ok, so they were a bunch of "normls"? could they not have been het for both? they were put down, then that does not answer my question, at all. i know that i may be new to the morph deal, but if you are going to post something insulting me by saying that i am just new guy then answer my question. if they are normal and het for both what happens? and why would someone do this? because they can. why do any breeding project?

matt

I think you need to go back and read my post a little better and not get caught up in all the hype. I in know way was insulting you for being new to this. I simply was pointing out that this question comes up a lot. I didn't think about it at first but then realized that a lot of newer people are starting to post and will not have seen past debates/post about certain subjects so the question will come up again and again. Which as I said in my first post is a good thing and means people are taking the time to edjucate themselves. I've always gone out of my way to help people new or old to this hobby if I have an answer they need. I've also spent countless hours on the phone helping out new people that have asked for my help. So Matt, sorry if you took offense to my post but thats not the way it was meant. Goodluck with all your future projects and yes, some but not all the babies from that first breeding would be het for both Sharp and Kahl but some would've been just het Sharp cause like Bill said I think it was a Sharp albino breed to a het Kahl. Again, I will post my opions and thoughts on why I feel that breeding shouldn't be done in a seperate post in just a bit.

>If they are normal and het for both what happens? and why would someone do this? because they can. why do any breeding project?

It is true that as far as I know nobody has actually done this project. When liquidleaf and I answered the what happens question, we gave the standard result for what happens when that sort of cross is made. I am 99% sure that what we gave would be the actual result if and when someone does it.

When I do a breeding project, I'm trying to either learn something or make a bit of money. With albino prices what they are now, the money, time and effort this project requires would not give me a worthwhile return in either knowledge or cash. YMMV.

Paul Hollander

If all normals het for both strains are born from a kahl to sharp breeding, maybe if a pair of those double hets are bred to each other you could produce an animal displaying both of those recessive genes.(like a snow boa with anery and albinism) I do not know if you would be able to tell it from the others or not but we will never know until some further breeding trials are done. I do not know much about genetics but even the genetic wizards get stumbled on some of the stuff that is going with these boas.

Marcus

...

this project.

Ok, the first breeding was done via a Sharp albino X het Kahl and I said above that the animals from that litter came out all normal meaning the two lines weren't compatable. So, yes there were animals in the litter het for both and some just het Sharp. Now,I also mentioned they were put down. I don't know the exact reason why the parties put the animals down but it might be because of the reason I have against it. Which is, if you have these double hets for both out there eventually they are going to get scattered around. Which means there will be some breedings that produce het Sharps poss het Kahl or vise versa. Now, with those being out there to me everything is going to get messed up. Why you ask? Lets say someone comes into the hobby and likes Sharps more so they buy a pair of hets that are related to animals that came from one of the above breedings and lets say they were only poss het Kahl so the seller didn't mention it or maybe that person had know idea. Now lets say for the sake of arguement they both(male and female) were actually double hets. This person breeds them has a successful litter of albino's and poss hets. He's happy and wants to post some forsale to make some money for other animals he's had his eyes on. Now here's the problem. He's going to be selling them as Sharp albinos right cause thats the hets he bought but there will be Kahl albino's in there also..RIGHT? Now,someones going to buy one thinking they're getting a Sharp and it's actually going to be a Kahl. Then they're going to breed it to a het, dh or whatever only to get a litter with NO albinos,sunglows ETC. Now there's even more of these double carriers out there that are going to further confuze everything.

This is just a small example of what COULD happen. It could go other ways, more experienced/responsible people who have worked with both for awhile could pick out which are Sharps and which are Kahls but somewhere down the line it's going to happen if we have all these poss double hets out there. Even the albinos could be poss het or het Kahl or Sharp. I mean how many times do we see posts like "YAY BABIES PLUS A SURPRISE!!" where people bred an albino to an anery expecting to make double hets and the albino actually proved to be het anery and the owner had no clue of this even being a possibility. It happenes and will end up happening with the albino strains sooner or later.

I'm not saying don't do it cause everyone is there own person and who am I to say don't breed YOUR animals together. All i'm saying is if it's done be responsible and don't let the double het bloodlines leak out together. This is probably why the animals from the first breeding were put down. To prevent the above scenario.

Thats why I feel the project should be left alone. I admit in my first post the example I gave where I said "why would you want to breed a line of albino's that Keep their color and actually gain it as they grow, with a line that starts out nice and then dulls out after time(90% of the time)" was a little harsh on screen. I didn't mean it to look like I was talking down on Kahls which after reading it again it did,but sometimes it's hard to express true feelings or sarcasm on screen. Someones always going to take it the wrong way no matter what you do or how you meant it.

Anyways,thanks for taking the time to read this and remember,what I said above is just a possible scenario so please don't turn it into something it's not!

Thanks,Ruben Pictured are my favorite Kahl I used to own and one of my favorite Sharps

Thanks for the details. I did not think about all of that stuff, just thought that people heard that they were not compatible so they would just produce double hets and the homozygous form of both would be normal looking or all white. Don’t know why I thought that. Anyhow, sorry for misreading your post. We really do need a sarcasm button on the keyboard. lol

matt

>>kahl X sharp= 100% het sharp & kahl right? soooooo.... what would this make?
>>
>>100% sharp & kahl het X 100% sharp & kahl het =
>> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>>
>>anyone tried it? really been bugging me to find out what would happen or if anyone has done it. thankss guys.

Has anyone ever proved this is the case? That the normals born are indeed DH for Kahl AND Sharp? Has anyone bred the babies back to see if it throws both strains?

Or is this just theoretical, like the probability numbers of that dreaded Punitt square?

Just curious,
Rick
-----
Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices