Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,
I usually pick up my venomous and they never ask to check for my VRL? So I am wondering since I am going to be out of town if someone else could pick up my snake for me? Do you think this will fly? Or can I give them a copy of my VRL and they can pick it up just to deliver kinda like a shofer. I called and everyone said I dont see why not and to me thats not much help from delta. Just wanted to see if anyone has had any bad experiances etc....
-TheIncrediableB

Um... Where? (At least what state might help.)

And are you asking whether you might get away with it, or whether it's legal?

Here in Florida, I don't know whether they check at the airport (never ordered anything myself), but it's certainly not legal if the person picking it up doesn't have a permit. If you can arrange for someone with a permit to go, that's legal and I think fairly common...
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Delta Airlines doesn't have a venomous permit but act as a carrier for the permit holder. It would be legal for your representitive to p.u. venomous and deliver them to you, the permit holder. This is done ALL the time by employees picking up shipments for their permitted employer. Having said that do you really want to assume the liability of having someone do this without your participation? Have no doubt you would be held responsible both criminally and civilly. I WOULDN'T!!! TOM CRUTCHFIELD

Thanks Tom,
Well I dont have anyone brave enoughf to open a box and if I send anyone its gonna be some one I know and that will listen to me as they do when they come around my house. All I need is for them to pickup the package and leave in my reptile room and I should be home later. If soemthing went wrong in flight I might get screwed over but yea I dont want the harasment of other things in my way and I most certainly dont want to put anyone in the line of danger and I dont really think handleing the box is gonna do anything harmful.

>>Delta Airlines doesn't have a venomous permit but act as a carrier for the permit holder.

Airlines are federally regulated. Delta trasports from a federally regulated airport through federally regulated airspace to another federally regulated airport. State laws like the one in Florida that specifically requires a permit to "transport" venomous reptiles do not apply to them. Anyone leaving a controlled part of the airport with a venomous snake needs a permit.

>>It would be legal for your representitive to p.u. venomous and deliver them to you, the permit holder.

Nope, you need at least a "special authorization permit" attached to the owners permit, in the name of the person doing the transporting. The riquirements for that permit are the same as a VR permit, except you don't need a secure room because you are only authorized to transport on behalf of the VR permit holder.

>>This is done ALL the time by employees picking up shipments for their permitted employer.

Probably, but it's not legal (in Florida).
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

incorrect. I know, in years past I've had even class 1 herps transported out of Fl. legally by agreeing to act as a transporter for the person buying and yes venomous herps as well. this was with full knowlege of Fish and Game. Did they like it, no. Was it a legal loophole, yes. I paid an attorney $750 to give me a legal understanding of the statutes. You sir are dead wrong!!!TC

I agree.
The person you designate to pick up or ship animals, venomous or not, can act as your "agent" if you deem so.

Randal Berry

Remember Randal when I had my attorny give me a wriiten interpretation of the law. Then I proceeded to follow his instructions and that included notifying Fish and Game. We never had a problem.TC

Thats correct Tom.

I was there, and shipped/picked up most of the animals in Tampa.

Ladnar, (from the Mother Country)

The amended statute signed by the Governor on 6/28/2007 and effective as of 7/1/3007 now says very specifically that a permit is required for "transportaion" rather than leaving the courts to decide whether "posession" includes "transportation". I assume this was done for the express purpose of plugging said loophole.

A third-hand legal opinion from years past will not help the OP with new legislation.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

>>The amended statute signed by the Governor on 6/28/2007 and effective as of 7/1/3007

Oops. Even Florida doen't normally defer laws for 1000 years. 7/1/2007.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

n us with the ammendment # or bill #. That would mean that all employees who handle class i wildlife at Fl. zoos, attractions, etc. would all be illegaly working. To my knowlege there has been NO new regs. passed except for those on large boids and some lizards that do not go into effect untill next year. Thankig you in advance for the info...TC

>>n us with the ammendment # or bill #.

CS/SB 2766

>>That would mean that all employees who handle class i wildlife at Fl. zoos, attractions, etc. would all be illegaly working.

No, it's specifically for venomous and "reptiles of concern" and does not apply to Class I or other reptiles, although other parts of the act do.

>To my knowlege there has been NO new regs. passed except for those on large boids and some lizards that do not go into effect untill next year.

This is law, not regs. You are correct that the new regs do not take effect until next year, but they do include lots of changes to venomous, including cage size requirement (a previous loophole) and identification and reporting requirements.

Go here Rules and type "Venomous" in the "Full Text Search" box and that will get you most of the new regs.

On the bright side, staring next year you can legally mark your transport boxes "Danger - VENOMOUS Reptiles" instead of "Danger - POISONOUS Reptiles" as required by the current regs.

>>Thankig you in advance for the info...TC

No problem.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

After perusing your attachment I STILL SEE NOTHING that prevents an employee or other carrier from transporting venomous on the permittes liscense to their possesion. TC

>>"...on the permittes liscense to their possesion."

I might be missing a simple concept here, but I don't get this answer.

As far as I know a VR permit is issued only in the name of an individual, just like a driver's license. It only applies to that individual, with the specific exception that their "authorized employee" may open cages on their licensed premeses.

This is like saying that an employee can drive the company truck on the boss's drivers license... I'm fairly certain that wouldn't fly.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,
Your quote:
"As far as I know a VR permit is issued only in the name of an individual, just like a driver's license. It only applies to that individual, with the specific exception that their "authorized employee" may open cages on their licensed premeses."

What does have to do with transporting venomous snakes?
I think that is what Tom is talking about. I think he's saying that you DO NOT have to have a Venomous License to TRANSPORT snakes.

I know for a fact you don't have to have one to pick them up from the cargo area of the airport. (here's the caveat here,UNLESS a LE from FL F&W is standing there waiting for someone to pick up a shipment of venomous reptiles, and then, he could ask the person picking up the animals if he had a permit.) But cargo officials are not authorized to enforce state law. They also have no grounds to ask the person picking up the animals if they have a license. I doubt they care anyway.

Anyway, that the way I see it and I think that's what Tom is talking about.

Cheers!
Randal

>>What does have to do with transporting venomous snakes?
>>I think that is what Tom is talking about. I think he's saying that you DO NOT have to have a Venomous License to TRANSPORT snakes.

This is some of the new language of the state statue as of 7/1/2007:

"372.86 Capturing, keeping, possessing, TRANSPORTING,
or exhibiting venomous reptiles or reptiles of
concern; license required.--"

That seems fairly clear to me. The word "transporting" is new.

There is also new language that now makes a first violation of 372.86 a second degree misdemeanor.

>>I know for a fact you don't have to have one to pick them up from the cargo area of the airport.

>>Anyway, that the way I see it and I think that's what Tom is talking about.

As I hope I made clear, I was answering the question of whether it was legal, not whether you could get away with it. It is still not clear to me which of those questions the OP was actually asking, although Tom was clearly stating that it is legal.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

You definitely are missing something. A CARRIER SUCH AS DELTA ETC. OR OTHERS DO NOT NEED A PERMIT TO TRANSPORT VENOMOUS FOR A PERMITTEE!! THEY DO HAVE TO BE TRANSPORTED ACCORDING TO FL. STATUTES. THIS WILL BE MY LAST RESPONSE TO THIS AS ITS CLEAR THAT YOU HAVE MADE YOUR MIND UP IN SPITE OF THE PROOF YOU PROVIDED AND WHAT PEOPLE OTHER THAN ME HAVE EXPLAINED.IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHETHER A CARRIER IS AN AIRLINE OR A MOTHER-IN-LAW. AS I STATED SEVERAL TIMES ITS NOT A GREAT IDEA BECAUSE OF THE LIABILITY CONCERNS. IF ITS SUCH AN ARGUABLE POINT SHOULDN'T THE SUBJECT BE OF SOMETHING A TAD MORE IMPORTANT? TC

>>IF ITS SUCH AN ARGUABLE POINT SHOULDN'T THE SUBJECT BE OF SOMETHING A TAD MORE IMPORTANT?

I'm sorry you see it as an argument. After all the petty things that are argued to death on the internet, I figured making sure we gave someone the correct (and current) advice on something that could potentially land them in jail qualified as important.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

the transporter sign an aggreement with a witness to agree to transport said herps out of Fl. for the purchaser in agreement to Fl. statutes for transport. Having said this, again, it would be better to do it yourself.TC

Larry,
I am located in FL Sanford to be exact. Delta seem to not be concerned about it as long as I have a VRL wich I do. But however like I said they do not usually ask me for mine I am in and out of their with the package. So I was just thinking maybea friend wich is not permited could pickup the box or I could probably just use my fiances brother he is in law enforcement. Still kinda ify on this subject so I might have to some how tell my boss I cannot go out of state for work hope he agrees. No one ever not had time or been at work before and had their wife pickup or buddy?

Simple question: Why not have the snake shipped on a day when you WILL be in town? Most dealers are more than willing to compromise on a shipping day that is convenient for both parties.

I don't live in FL, so I can't say anything regarding their policies, but I would personally avoid having a person inexperienced with venomous reptiles pick up and deliver a shipment for me.

Again, my suggestion would simply be to wait to have the snake(s) shipped until you are available to pick them up yourself.

Arkansas resident, I can ship venomous reptiles to myself in Florida, arrive at the airport's Delta Cargo, and pick up my shipment, and they NEVER ask to see my Venomous License.

Delta Airlines DO NOT check to see if you are licensed or not.

Delta is in the transportation business NOT state law enforcement business.

Randal Berry

WOw,
Guys didnt want this to be an argumentative subject but it seems we are in the clear here as far as that goes. I appriciate all your help especialy those who answeared directly to the subject at hand. Please take care and remmber you don always have to waste your time to do everything you can still make money and "have some one who cares pickup the little devils who make life worth liveing".
-TheIncrediableB

The venomous reptile has got to be properly packaged for shipping in accordance with every applicable rule. When that has been done, there is virtually no danger to the carrier of the package, including Delta or any of their employees, or the person who picks it up at the other end. If there is any risk whatsoever, the package simply does not comply with the rules. Even thieves who steal packages are protected by properly labeling the package to give fair warning as to it’s contents. In the event of an accident, haz mat personnel, police, firemen etc, are duly warned as well. All these things are very well covered by the rules for shipping such packages. The shipper is responsible for getting it to it’s destination without damaging it to the point where those rules are compromised. They have decided they are capable of doing so for the $85.00 or so that they charge. If the risks were greater, so too would be the fee. Make sure your partner knows what’s in the package and doesn’t have a looksy.