Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been out west since the 3rd and have seen zero herpers. I have been mostly in out-of-the-way locals, but still thought I would see SOMEONE. I guess the HB12 has scared everyone away. Too bad. It is nice to have it all to myself.

If you aren't, then maybe the other hunters made the right choice?

I spent two nights on FM 674 this week and didn't see a single snake.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Was out last night here in Kendall Co. Saw two emoryi. Been way too wet here (Lol-remember what we were wishing for last year? Well, it can stop now!)

Brad Chambers

I don't think that is the case. I think everyone got their alotted alterna a few weeks back when they were pouring out of the cuts! DOn't want to be too greedy. I just got a phone call that one was found on the RR last night not far from Tapado Canyon, (female they think, 20" long), so Bryan, "we" are out there. You just can't find anyone when you're hunting all those non descript locales! This person also said he saw a D.O.R Blairs right in front of those old buildings down the road from Comstock where the dude that used to sell fudge and jerky used to be on 90. Have fun out there!!

Wayne

Hey Wayne,
I got the phone call too this morning. Figured he was going to call you to rub it in your face..LOL. Also heard of some nice lepidus being found near Alpine and the river as well as a few blonde subocs over this past week. Good for all them!
Nathan

Last week? try last night.

Good to hear from you Rob. So it was last night...awesome buddy! By Robert's conversation, I wasn't sure when it was. Fill us in on the details and a few pictures when you can.
Nathan

If you would turn on your phone I would fill you in, lol

LOL...funny. My phone took the weekend off hanging out at my office. Great pictures! What I gathered from Robert is that the lepidus was from Alpine and the blonde was from further down on the river, west of Pepper's and Lajitas?
Nathan

Congrats on whoever found the blond subocs. I've repeatedly come very close to finding them but never have yet. All of the ones I know of have come from between Pepper's and Lajitas. I'm curious, has anyone found one in other areas? --Henry W.

I believe that Tom Boyden found one in the Xmas sometime in the 90's.

I have heard they can come from way west of lajitas. Furthest west I have heard them coming from is 1/2 mile west of East Rancheras

I picked up a blond on the West side of the Big Hill once in the 90s.. A kinked up little juvi that just was not meant to live.

Troy has pics of it online somewhere...

Lance

Thanks for the replies. Sounds like the gene for this color morph is present over a wider area than I thought. I wonder what leads to the more common expression of it in the Lajitas to Terlingua region? Perhaps the light-colored soils and limestone of this area have something to do with it although that did not affect the populations in other such habitats in their range. For what its worth, there are incredibly beautiful subocs in the Cuatro Cienegas region of Coahuila. I'll try and dig up a photo to post (they are not blond, though). --Henry W.

Back in the day when TP&W thought that subocs were rare and warranted protected status somebody had a whole bunch of them from Southern Brewster and Presidio county. They were afraid of getting busted and took them out and started releasing them, most likely in the semi remote areas of river road....

This was the idea that was tossed at me as to why I found a blond so far away from the usual haunt.

But that was just a story I heard, and to be honest I am not sure if anybody understands how a gene in the suboc population can distribute itself naturally... There are some dynamics of these herp populations that may never be fully explained??

Makes you wonder how many populations get screwed up that way. Is there a Texas regulation against release of native and exotic captive animals? --Henry

>>Makes you wonder how many populations get screwed up that way. Is there a Texas regulation against release of native and exotic captive animals? --Henry

Now there is legislation relating to release of exotics, not so far natives.

I've found two blonds between Terlingua and Study Butte. This is area where they were first discovered. The lajitas (River Road) and xmas locals came later.

I wonder what leads to the more common expression of it in the Lajitas to Terlingua region?

You have to remember that blond pattern in subocularis is simply a pattern aberrancy where the pattern doesn't form correctly due to a genetic defect/variant.

This genetic "error" is caused by an allele that is found in high frequency in the Lajitas area. It probably originated in this area. Because the allele frequency is high in this area, the number of homozygotes (blonds) is high.

As you get further away from the area, the frequency of the allele becomes lower and therefore the number of animals who are homozygous for that allele becomes less frequent as you move away from Lajitas. Over time, since this allele doesn't appear to have any particular disadvantage (?), it will probably spread wider and wider over time and blonds could show up further and further afield.

I doubt there is any selective advantage to this pattern anomaly and therefore the rock/soil color would have little to do with its frequency in the wild.

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

"As you get further away from the area, the frequency of the allele becomes lower and therefore the number of animals who are homozygous for that allele becomes less frequent as you move away from Lajitas. Over time, since this allele doesn't appear to have any particular disadvantage (?), it will probably spread wider and wider over time and blonds could show up further and further afield."

--I agree that the allele probably originated in the Lajitas-Terlingua area but I wonder about whether it has a selective disadvantage or not. Here's some real speculation based on the fact that very few blonds have been found in the dark rocky areas of the region:

Perhaps the more open and lighter soils of the areas in which it occurs favor a more blotchy pattern for camouflage whereas the more rocky terrain where there is more ground cover permits the usual pattern? The only other snakes similar to subocs in habitat, size, and behavior are glossys and Pituophis, and both have such patterns (and are mainly found away from the rocks). Of course one might wonder why the blond pattern is not the dominant one if this is the case. My only response to that would be that it is a relatively new mutation. That's a rather unsatisfying explanation, however.

OK, enough random herp speculation for the day! Back to archaeology... --Henry W.

It may be significant to note the presence of Boquillas and Santa Elena limestone in or near the areas that Blonds are found with the exception of maybe west of the Big Hill. It runs from Study Butte to Lajitas, then leaves the road but goes north and around Lajitas to come back out to the road at Fresno Creek which was for years the west end of the range. Even Luna Vista(X Mas) which has produced a few, is within sight of Boquillas, that comes north up Terlingua Creek and comes out on the road south of Longhorn on 118. The same Boquillas runs south, down Terlingua Creek and comes out at Castolon where Blonds have also been collected. Maybe just a coincidence, but it is a BIG coincidence.
Also something to think about, I have collected 2 gravid Blonds, one laid 7 eggs and 1 laid 9. With 100% hatch, I got 100% Blond babies. Selective breeding in the wild??? I know 2 specimens is not a study group, but what are the chances? Anyone else find a gravid blond and what where the results? Or even a gravid normal from the blond range?
Later
Rick

Rick: That's incredible data. Sounds like the blond pattern is a fairly dominant trait. I wonder if anyone out there has tried breeding one to a regular suboc from a different locality? --Henry

Doing so produces het for blond.
My notes indicate a ratio of almost 20 normal (that could be het) to each blond in the area that blonds come from. 100% blond babies means it had to be a blond to blond breeding so the chances of both of those females being bred by chance by blonds is incredibly large. You would think a large percentage of the normal looking subocs in the area where blonds occur would be het for blond but I have collected and bred several females to a blond male and never producd blond babies.
Later
Rick

"My notes indicate a ratio of almost 20 normal (that could be het) to each blond in the area that blonds come from."

If that's the case, then I'm overdue to find one! Out of all the months and years of hunting the region, and all the subocs, and after having watched one collected ahead of me, they are the one thing I have yet to find in West Texas. It's always good to have something to go after! And my property is in their prime habitat so someday if I build a place there, maybe I'll find one outside my back door...--Henry

I did the same math a few weeks ago and concluded that I was due.

A week or two later, I found a DOR blonde.

Now I've started the count over and am at about five.

OK, I shall speak not of "being due". I shall speak only shouts of joy and thanks when the snakes appear in my lights.

And to tell the truth, anything and everything and even nothing in my lights is OK because I am more in love with the place than the snakes. Tis the thrill of the hunt, all the things you experience when you are hunting other than snakes, the incredible star-filled west Texas nights along River Road, the smell of the creosote flats after a rain, the camaraderie among hunters, and the sheer beauty of the landscapes that make me happy. The snakes are the icing on the cake. And maybe someday I'll find a blond suboc...--Henry W.

Henry, if only the powers that be could/would experience those things, HB12 would not be.
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Todd Hughes

Amen

My hunch is they are attracted to each others scent. Could it be that Blond Sub-ocs have developed a different scent that attracts them to each other better propagating the blond and if so should it be elevated to sub-species status?
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Take some blonde female sheds and/or musk and set it up, see what kinds of males are attracted. I have often thought of baiting, wish males put out the pheromones to attract females as well.

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Todd Hughes

>>I have collected 2 gravid Blonds, one laid 7 eggs and 1 laid 9. With 100% hatch, I got 100% Blond babies. Selective breeding in the wild??? I know 2 specimens is not a study group, but what are the chances? Anyone else find a gravid blond and what where the results? Or even a gravid normal from the blond range?
>>Later
>>Rick

Rick,

I know that Earl Turner collected some unknown hets (normals) and bred them to blondes and got animals with both patterns out of the clutches. These were in Terlingua, so it does substantiate, to some degree, the fact that the gene frequency is high in that area. He wrote a paper for TP&W magazine called "White Snakes of Terlingua" in the late 70s, and said he caught several blondes in a span of five years.

One thing that's unique about Terlingua/Pepper's/Lajitas/Study Butte is the caliche (hardpan) rock found there. Hardpan is a very yellow rock, and the blonde pattern influences a sort of hypomelanistic color effect on the snakes, making most appear more yellow - hence the name "blonde". It seems that the recessive blonde trait might be more fit against that yellow turf.

As far as other wierd locales for blondes, I've got some photos of Christmas, West of Big Hill, and Fresno Curve blondes for my upcoming suboc book.

None of the aforementioned look like your average yellow blonde from Terlingua/Lajitas area.
Interesting post, people.

Dusty

Suboc.com

My only blond suboc (DOR juvie) was between Study Butte and Terlingua. I've also heard of one on 170 right in Study Butte.

I found one still moving just hit by the car in front of me directly in front of the Terlenguia Motel in August of 05.

I don't think he is rubbing it in. In fact, anyone who can catch an alterna on that road,....more power to them. I don't get excited because I know what to expect. If I don't expect anything and get my hopes up, I can't get disappointed. The day I do find one I am sure it will be a D.O.R.

Wayne

Snakes were moving pretty well. Subocs everywhere. The strange thing was the lack of rattlesnake movement. I saw only ONE rattlesnake, live or dead, in five days. It was a blacktail that was active in the early afternoon. BTW, congrats to whoever caught the blondes. I have always liked those. I hope that I never find one or I might have to become a suboc guy.