Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello All,
I posted this on another forum so if you have read it there, thank you for your reply...

Hello to all,
I wanted to get input from FR and all others with a hypothesis about what is occurring when monitors are housed together in a group and certain individuals rapidly outgrow the others. The reason that I am asking is because the most common answer is that the larger individuals are eating the larger portions of food- I think this is true as they are larger and can fit more in the "tank"... However, Mary in particular has spent great focus on "babying" these smaller individuals with rodent feeders on tongs and they still grow much slower. My line of thought (which I am trying to suppress until I see more) is that certain individuals may have a genetically slower growth rate or are affected by a stress, hormone or some other forces that prohibit the lightning fast growth rates that these larger individuals have shown so far. Also, as a side note, monitors are not the only animals that I have witnessed this phenomenon- this seems to be the same with most of baby lizards and turtles that I have raised together even in my fish species...? Best to you all- Mike

Much they eat, certain individuals are gonna be smaller when kept with more dominant individuals. If they are kept apart from each other they will grow pretty close in size.
So stress on the subordiant individual will cause many changes, even seriously changing physical features.
I think genetics among the same species will not make that much of a difference. Environmental factors effect them more than anything else could.

By the same tokin, then inividuals who are housed separately would be affected in a similar manner under stressfull conditions, no? I acquired 2 small niles within a month of one another and housed them seperately in nearly identical conditions. One was calmer than the other from the outset. I handled the calmer one often. The other was bitey so I left it alone for the most part. The bitey one was out and about more often and ate over twice what the calmer one would eat. The calmer one ate regularly but did not bask as often. The biter ate as much as I would give it and was much more active. By the eighth month the biter was twice the size of the calm one. At the time I was clueless in fact I believe this post has answered my question as to why they grew at such extremely different rates. Needless to say I have learned a lot since then and have long since stopped force handling my monitors. Thanks fellas.

Roger

I kind of do not work in the same way as most here do. Many seem to measure the monitors day to day, and worry about little things or maybe better thought of as short term things.

I do not seem to have those kinds of problems. Yea, in the short term some individuals grow faster. What I measure is the time to sexual maturity, how long does it take them to grow up. After all, that is the goal, to reach sexual maturity. In this, I do not see a big difference. Most all our individuals reach sexual maturity in under a year, for medium to small ones, and a year to 18 months with the larger species. Rarely does an individual not achieve that, for us.

When they fail to achieve that, I can always find the fault, ME. I failed them in some way. Something else to consider is, I always raise them in groups. Of course, thats if I have more then one of that species. At times I even raise members of different species in mixed groups, without problem.

I get the feeling those with little experience forget there will be an outcome, and the outcome is what tells you what happened along the way. For instance, if your shy one turns out female and the other turns out male. And they both pair up and successfully reproduce. That all that happened along the way is not only normal, but GREATTTTTTTTTT. It seems to me, folks try to come up with answers without the benefit of seeing the whole package.

Yet, so many judge every little thing before theres actually something to judge.

I have had individuals start out as the slowest growing in a group to a point of being ridiculois. Only to, not only catch up, but pass the fastest grower in that group and do so very quickly.

So I do not see a whole lot of sense comparing two individuals. Which is what happens here most often. While its nice, to actually have it be meaningful, you have do raise many individuals and judge them by their outcome, not the intermediate progress. Cheers

Of blackthroats, something Ive kept many over the years. Although Ive had my problems in the past, Ive never had a male or female not grow to 4.5-5ft in a matter of months from either 16-24 inches at the time I brought them home.
This same species used to be a more commonly kept example on here, the majority of keepers could not figure out how to get them to grow beyond 3ft, and some examples I saw that were hatchling size a few years after their owners got them. The common answer most gave to how big they get was 3-4.5ft long total.
I used to see many keepers saying that the animals had to be limited by their genetics. That was one that Mark Bayless even argued against, the average size for them is 5-7ft as adults (depending on sex).
At one time Rob Fausts crosses were common to stay small in most peoples care. I know of a few from Sobeks clutch that grew beyond 5ft (before I lost track of them, or owners sold them, etc). The last time he emailed me about her size she was as big as his large male ornatus.

......their will to thrive, survive?

In a sense this can fall within some already mentioned categories, one being, genetics. I'm wondering if their mentality, specifically their will to thrive/survive, is the key factor in growth gaps.

Excluding husbandry, environmental status, I think genetics, of the physical sense, is the key factor to their full-grown size, but mentalitly could be the key to their short term size differences, growth.

The aggressive, assertive, dominant ones grow faster than the submissive, timid ones do right out of the gate. I don't think it's a physical trait that causes this, but mental. The size differences between liter mates could represent mentality differences.

Scenario:
There are 5 monitor liter mates. Two are dominant, two are very shy, timid, and the other is somewhere in-between.

I'm sure you can imagine a feeding scene of this group without me going into detail. My point is that only two of these are mentally strong enough to actually compete for food. The two timid ones will wait for leftovers. The middleman doesn't actually compete with the two dominant ones, it takes what it can while the dominant ones are getting what they want. It feeds at the same time but stays out of the way.

At the end of their first month the dominant ones are 12in long, the timid ones are 7, and the middleman is 9 1/2.

At the end of their 2nd month the middleman has caught up with the dominant ones because he's realized that he can be just as big & bad as them.

Eventually, the timid ones may catch up, but its not a given. Since genetics also play a role in mentality, they could be coupled with a low self-will gene & a smaller physical-size gene. OR, even one of the dominant ones could have a smaller physical-size gene than the rest, making it the smallest of the liter at full growth.

Even if they're seperated once a growth gap begins the mental damage could be hard to undo, if it can be undone. Their will, spirit could be broken, and we all know what that can do to animals, and humans, too. There's always the chance that its just like me, mentally off from the start.

My brother used to tell everyone that he had a brother that was well off. He said the he was a little off but his brother (me) was well off.

I think FR's right in saying that sometimes we worry too much about the temporary growth gaps. FOr the most part, they're eventually gonna be what they were destined to be. (Outside of husbandry, enviro.)

I'm going thru that now with a pair of juvie beardies. One outgrew the other by a longshot in a short time & I thought about seperating them but decided to just keep on making sure the little one got all it wanted to eat. They're almost the same size again, now, and they're about 3 months old. At one point the larger one was twice the size of the little one.

That's just my crazy thoughts on the matter.

Ya'll have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hello,
Just to clarify, I am not really worried about the growth of the animals because I know that I will keep them over the "long haul" or their entire life- so they will acheive their maximum adult size in my care. I do know that it takes years for reptiles to acheive their adult size because they grow until they die unlike us... What I am trying to acheive is the 12-18 month adult size in a timely matter so that I may begin to enjoy the recruiting process. Which brings up another question for you FR: Will large(species) monitor females produce ova at this young age(12-18months)? - If yo have an answer, great,(I know that you know...) but either way, I will let you know what happens with my small group of savs... Thanks to all and best to you- Mike

A couple more interesting areas. About reptiles growing until death(their entire life) Sir that is something I do not agree with. It appears to again come from a slightly different direction of understanding.

Reptiles have a longer cap on growth. They can grow towards their genetic potential over a long period. Mammals have a very restricted period of growth. Reptiles have a not so restricted period.

Common sense tells us that. If they grew over extented periods, I would have 8 foot cal kings, and 9 foot greenrat snakes. And That 50 year old ball python should have been 20 feet long.

People have very successfully kept colubrid snakes for some 30 years. Raising them very quickly to sexual maturity. Considering that, why are not no new records for total lenght. And commonly so. So no, again my experience has beaten down wifestails.

Yes, they can postpone their growth to overcome periods of poor conditions, that IS A COMMON trait of reptile survival. And yes, they can grow in LENGHT, past achieving sexual maturity. But NO it does not appear they can grow past their genetic potential. In fact, individuals that have been dwarfed thru poor conditions, natural or otherwise, never grow to a large size for that species. In fact, they never reach average size, BUT do grow enough to reach reproductive size. So late life growth appears to be playing catch up, to normal performing size. Nothing more.

A Cal King can reach five feet. The record is somewhere close to that. Cal kings can grow for many years to attempt to reach that. Or grow to nearly that in 18 months. But they do not have the ability to grow to 8 feet. As that is past their genetic potential. Now consider the possibility of genetic abnormality. It could occur, but has not. And this is across the board.

To take this back to varanids, we commonly raise ackies to two feet in a year to 18 months. Yet with the same husbandry that supported that, we do not see three foot or four foot ackies. And I have a 18 year old(aprox) ackie. It was extra large ackie(28inches) in 1993. ITs still an extra large ackie now. It has not grow at all. In fact, it followed a normal pattern of aging.

It was young and robust, it performed as an adult should, it become old and lost bulk, its now a rickety old man. As George my 22 year old Lacie is becoming. They age and slowly lose physical ability. As they reach old age, they deteriorate, not continue to grow. Just like mammals. Cheers

Thank you FR,
That makes alot of sense. It is very relevant that different animals do have limits to there size even those exceptional specimens do. I too have kept some snakes to there maximum size and even though they continue to shed(cell division) they are also replacing those that are lost- at least, I understand it as this way...(correct me if I am wrong...) I have a large female croc monitor that has been with me since the mid nineties(wasn't a baby then) and is showing a little "slowing down". I have not yet prepared myself for her departure but she will be missed dearly when that day comes. Again, thank you for the clarity and- Best to you- Mike

I think genetics is the underlying factor of it all. simply said ,if they don't have the genes they will not grow.

I know this to be true, after several hundred of dollars in vet visits and expert recommendations on environment, food ect...

I am left with the fact that my monitor is NOT going to be nearly as large as its brethren. no one has found a single problem with environment and nothing has showed up in blood, skin, throat exams "yet". still waiting on some results, so if I am wrong i will gladly eat my words!

bottom line is that there is a reason some don't make it in the wild, survival of the fittest! I know that alot of it is getting eaten but why is it some get away.Is it dumb luck? yes , sometime! but other times the lizard is slower or smaller or doesn't blend in quite enough.

Now the argument is that all that changes in captivity, well only part of it. the fact that the genetics are the same no matter what the environment is a huge determining factor.

once again why do 2 animals in the almost exact same environment turn out completely different, genetics!

you can see some of the same thing in humans, yes humans. environment is only part of the determing factor in people. We are a thinking animal as opposed to an instinctual animal. yet we still turn out in large part of our geneitcs.

please tear my theory apart if you can!!

One bit of understanding, these are not mammals. Monitors are ectotherms. There conditions predict what part of their genetic potential they will achieve. 99% of captive conditions is substandard in the support of monitors.

In your case, do you have a proven history of success? That is, have you allowed lots of monitors to achieve full potential? If not, you really do not know whats causing one to be smaller. Why would think about genetics(limitations) when your in the first inning(baseball)

For instance, If your had proven conditions, then you could measure them on how and when they reached sexual maturity. You do know that males grow larger in many varanid species. Is yours one of those. There are many possibilities before theories. Where yous wild caught(FR) is so, you have not idea what has happened to them on their journey here.

You asked to tear your theory apart, I am not sure you have enough evidence to have a theory. You just messing with two individuals on their way to whatever they are going to do. I don't think you should make theories on so little, to be honest. With two individuals, in what I assume is their youth, I would think about adjustments, not theories. Cheers

First before making that assumption..
I have seen many many monitors alone that owners could not find a problem with their husbandry, or environment, but many of those were given to or sold to others who saw sudden growth that was not expected, so how does that occur?
Simple, the environment is more conducive to growth at that point. Ive had several of these type of monitors, from bosc, to my favorite example albigs such as blackthroats. How do you explain these 2-3ft BTs that I was given or bought that were already adults, each suddenly grew to almost 5ft or more in a few months time?
How about a cape banded WT that was 18 inches long in 3 separate owners care, it was 6.5 years old. This animal grew to 3ft in a friends care in a period of years, in my care he shot up to 4ft in 2 months, at 9.5 years old plus.
How about a Tanzanian WT that was in 3 separate owners care, it was 16 inches long, it was documented at 6 years in these owners care, it doubled in size in 2 months for a friend of mine before someone bought him.
How about bosc monitors, Ive seen hundreds of what vets, and owners were convinced were dwarfs, or limited by genetics, in the same way as the BTs these bosc monitors grew big in others care (a friends rescue, a few in my care, 2 in another friends care, and many many others I know of).
Not to even get started on snakes, I could go all day on examples of them. Just a few quick examples, 3 male pinesnakes that were all under 3ft total in many years care with former owners, they shot up to 4-6ft in 1-2 years time in a few friends care. One I raised from a very young snake to 4.5ft long in a year, a good friend wanted to buy her for months, I gave in, shes still growing fast.
Corn snakes, Ive seen far too many 2-3ft cornsnakes as adults, but why does a good friend get these little dwarfs and see them grow to 5-6ft in no time at all?
Beardies, another example, Ive seen many adult beardies elsewhere smaller than the babies I sold through a friends business at a few months old. Mine got big, this is another reason I only kept one male when I stopped breeding them.
Geneitic factor limiting growth on a monitor or any reptile are average sizes, not big differences. By small examples I mean BTs that are from 5ft instead of 5-7ft long (depending on sex, males are larger). Ive even seen flaviargus that are adults, or argus that are adults (males) that were from 2-3ft long, but why do most in decent care grow to 4ft or more? Argus as an example can grow to 5ft.
I used to see at reptile shows yeara ago many many bosc monitors that were 14inches to 2.5ft long at the most, these were pets, not animals for sale, but why did some of them grow much larger in someone elses care?

great responses!! thats what i like to hear.

And you are right my experience is very limited!

Now let me get this right, reptiles are not prone to genetic abnomlities because they are ectothermic their environment dictates growth.

now that being said, and I am willing to except that, i want an answer why mine will not grow so i can fix it!

I (and many others) have yet to find 1 thing wrong with my husbandry. Also he is "healthy" according to all the vet visists.
he is small, but was born small!

Lizards do have genetic abnormalities by the way i have a Bluetongue that has nasal passages that are almost completely collapsed. from birth. Now this is the main reason i say that even though husbandry may account for the vast majority of undersized lizards. i find it hard to beleive that genetics play such a small role in the development.

Also last time I checked i believe even FR has said in the past that we know very little about these animals and that we are all constantly learning. even someone with 30plus years of experince may miss something if they have no reason to look for it.

good example is the whole venom debate in monitors.

First off, those nasel passages your most likely caused by poor incubation conditions(yes I know that bluetougues are live born, but they are indeed incubated inside the female.

Lets take your genetic abnormality theory. So in theory if you have a genetically dwarfed monitors(i have no idea what species you have and it does not matter) Then you can breed it and make a line of dwarfed monitors.

Heres the deal, you seem to WANT A BUILT IN EXCUSE.(who cares for what reason) The chances of you having a genetic dwarf are extremely small, you have a better chance to win the lotto. But what your experiencing is extremely common. So with that in mind, you want me to believe you have an extremely rare(genetically) monitor, from you having an extemely common problem, husbandry related dwarfism. I am not going to fall for that.

If your new, as you just said, the chances of you getting it right is extremely small. Why you ask, because your new. How us experienced guys deal with this is, oh, the dang thing is not growing well, let me check out why. Even thought we already know how to raise monitors, and in my case, very fast and very large, I still have to make adjustments ALL THE TIME and on a daily basis.

It appears you do not understand animals. It appears you think if you set up a tiny box, the monitor will reach its genetic potential. Dude, how wrong can you be. Please do not feel bad, there are PHD's that come here that think just like you. It appears the smarter a person is or thinks they are, the worse they are at doing this. I am one of the better ones at this(by repeated results) and almost never get it right. I have to adjust by what the monitor is expressing. ALWAYS. Thats called captive management. You have to manage a captive, not set it up. Hmmmmmm Well, you start with setting it up, and managing it the rest of its or your life.

To beat this drum a little more, that management is called work. As in, to work with your monitor. Yes, you work it and how well you work it is reflected in your MONITORS PROGRESS(results)

The first rule of working it is, to measure your captives growth, a fast growing monitor reflects good conditions, a slow growing monitor reflects poor conditions, a non growing monitor, reflects peawater poor conditions. Considering monitors grow like bamboo(super fast)

So, this thing of measuring/weighting your captive to determine its conditions is OLD, its older then me and thats dang old. Consider, I have been successfully raising many types of reptiles for over 45 years.

Whewwww, in the end, I would bet(percentages are on my side) That its your conditions and not genetics that is limiting the growth of your monitor. Yes, I could lose that bet, but I do not think I will. In fact, wanta bet? Consider, your betting against the house, who has a stacked deck and is cheating. Cheers

Wow! you are a passionate one aren't you!

If an animal is born at say 8grams but the average of that same animal is born at 15grams. will the 8 gram monitor stand a better chance of being smaller? Just a question I don't know the answer.

You Assume my husbandry is poor, fair assumption I would assume the same with a small animal. Now assume the husbandry all though can never be perfect is at an optimal level. say my husbandry was made to mimic you! this is completly hypothetical by the way. your saying there is a better chance of me winning the lottery than having a small monitor.

And you are also saying you can't raise a dwarf line of monitors.
i am sure with selective breeding you could. many many generations down the line.

the blue tongue not incubating is a great agrument but the fact is he is a wild caught BT. Since he is wild caught under your statements, unless i misunderstood, that shouldn't have happened.
it come back to for whatever the reason being some reptiles are going to differ. bad incubation, mom didn't eat enough greens, whatever.

By the way not looking for an excuse, I do figure that the reason my monitor is small is due to poor husbandry, but because I am having one hell of time finding out what i have done wrong i am looking into other possiblilties.

This is a great learning tool for me as well.

last question, out of all the monitors you have bred have you ever had a runt. male 4 ft water I would consider a runt.
or a sav under 3ft.

I don't know all the monitors youv'e bred but those are just examples.

thanks, I expect the same fire as last time!!

Why is it that when a large species on monitor (those that naturally grow to sizes longer than 5ft and commonly to 7ft or more) is under 5ft in captivity a new keeper believes it is a genetic abnormality?
Also a male bosc monitor commonly grows to 3-4ft if kept correctly, and a few individuals getting longer. Why is it that the common new keepers sees 1-2ft as a normal size?
These are not abnormalities in genetics. The example FR gave was a great one, I had a CBB BT/WT cross male that was the result of incubation as a factor, his backbone was bent at almost 90 degrees before he died at over 6 yrs of age (he was almost 4.5ft long), and I was warned that as he grows it may get worse (and it did the angle sharpened) but this was not genetics.
Why is it that when someone else would care for your lizard it will grow fast and much larger, think about it. Instead of blaming the lizard, ask the right questions, step back and take a good long look at what you really working with.
Also Ive raised many monitors to normal sizes over the years, and some with what I consider today as some poor husbandry (my first monitors), obviously I shouldnt feel too bad when I read the problems I commonly see on the forums with growth. There were 3 boscs that grew to normal size in my care at that time, they ranged from a female just shy of 3ft to a 4.5ft male.
I have to reload all of my pictures to new photohosting, it may take some time.

Sorry for the double post but I took another look at your post to see if I understood everything in it.

I did!

One thing I did notice i didn't the first time is all the assumptions, i mean I noticed few but not all.

i wanted to hit on one in particular.
The " tiny box full genetic potential" comment. I see I must be having a hard time expressing what I am talking about. Surely you don't think that i mean that genetics is the absolute and final say to the monitors development.

I am looking at this at the other end of the spectrum.
huge enclosure and optimal environmnet. Not speaking specifically about my monitor, speaking in terms of the conversation. you are saying 100% of the time the monitor will grow fast and huge and genetics has nothing to do with it. if thats true then your right!

45 years of experince and you beleive that?
why are monitors that are considered healthy differ in size so much. back to the water 5-7 ft range healthy? no if it is healthy it will have to reach that 7 ft range?

2 ft difference when only 7 ft are involved. huge disparity in one lizard to the next yet both are healthy?

Am i wrong?i maybe, Like I said this is fun for me and i'll learn alot besides I can tell it might agitating you just a bit, well because of all the unwarranteed assumptions.

oh yeah and I like the one about me not understanding animals. I don't and i am very aware of that, do you understand them?

I do not know you, I do not know your monitors, or their set up, or anything about how you treat them. So nearly everything I say HAS to be an assumption.

What is not an assumption is, your lack of understanding of reptiles. And "your" use of assumptions. Your assuming somethings wrong, it may not be.

Also, You think your set up is good, yet you have not reason(results) to think that. Your assuming your setup is good. I am assuming you followed some caresheet or advice and now call it good. Sorry sir, it does not work that way. To know your setup is good, is taken from results. From many monitors reared successfully, its not from following a set of instructions.

Back to reptiles. Most reptiles do not have a narrow range of adult size. Mammals do, birds do, but reptiles don't. A population of wild Savs my average 22 inches tl. for many years, then conditions change and the same population will average 29 inches.

Consider, monitors can and do reproduce at 1/2 or less their average adult lenght. If conditions support them, they will continue to grow until they rearch average or greater lenght. Consider, this is one genetic pool. The pool has a genetic range of size. Conditions can and do predict what part of that range they will reach. Savs(of average genetics) become reproductively viable from 18 to 36 inches tl.

This goes for captivity as well. The quality of your husbandry is WITHOUT QUESTION reflected in the animal in the cage, your monitor. Just like it does in nature.

So I recomend, learn about your monitor, learn about their potential, then try to express that potential in captivity. If you can.

Oh, and what you say or think does not bother me. Again, I am not the one with the problem, or potential problem. Your questions are yours to find the answers to. I have my own set of questions I seek answers for. Its just not these. Cheers

to SHvrar,

Is there any instance where a lizard was transferred that was small, and never grew? or were the environments of the monitors poor before the transfer and growth?

if either of those are true then it does not matter that some grow like a weed after being transfered. I am looking for the instance when a lizard is in an optimal envirnomment and then moved to another optimal environment and had the sudden growth!

is that possible and if so then your argument is valid.

I have seen the same thing Mainly with sav's. sold as an adult and are 14-16 inches long and then after some time with a good owner they are 3ft long. the difference is they were kept in horrid conditions.

can't wait to hear the responses!
note that i realize both of you know 10 times more about monitors than i do and thats why I am posing these questions

Ive never seen one stay the same size when small, they had a huge growth spurt then leveled out.
In those a good friend kept in his rescue I saw examples that were serious health issues that recovered then grew up fast, and a few serious health issues that died in a short period of time. Never a single one that stayed small.
The point is that a small species grows to an average of 9 inches to 3ft depending on species and sex, a medium sized species grows from 3-5ft depending on species and sex, a large species grows from 5-10ft depending on species and sex.
An example of a large species that stays smaller is the cape banded WT, they commonly grow to about 4ft, but some grow to 5ft or more, yet the BT is the same species, they can grow from 5-7ft or more.
Yous see genetics plays a factor in what they are capable of, but not examples of 1-2ft boscs, or 2-4ft water monitors, these are not genetic limitations.
Oh above you asked why such a variation in size, why 2ft of difference in a large monitor species, because this is an average from proven healthy examples of a species kept in captivity by those who show that they can keep them properly.

> > > "Just to clarify, I am not really worried about the growth of the animals..."

Just to clarify, I didn't think you were.

I know my post kinda gave that impression but I knew you were talking specifically about temporary growth gaps.

When I said "...we worry too much about the temporary growth gaps." I meant that most keepers, in general, including myself, tend to worry if it'll be permanent or not and start to worry about what to do about it.

Catch ya later, Mike!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American