Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm still thinking of turtle research for an MS degree... I had an idea for Chrysemys picta, but now am thinking of thermal preferences for Terrapene carolina carolina from northern (where I live) and southern edges of its range - and the range of T. c. carolina goes as far south as Georgia.

Not that I would buy your turtle, if you are in Georgia.... I should probably get wild turtles. I am wondering how common T. c. carolina is there, how easy it would be to get turtles from there. If anyone knows much about T. c. carolina in the far south, let me know.

Bill

They are very common, but they are also protected. All native GA herps are not allowed to be collected or possessed. You would have to apply for a scientific collecting permit, and you would also have to have a decent background and/or recommendation from a notable person.

Just my two cents...they won't grant any permit unless it provides a clear benefit to the State of GA. It's worth a try though. Good luck.

T. c. carolina stretches into FL, but their laws are becoming strict also.

Ken wrote:

"They are very common, but they are also protected. All native GA herps are not allowed to be collected or possessed. You would have to apply for a scientific collecting permit, and you would also have to have a decent background and/or recommendation from a notable person.

"Just my two cents...they won't grant any permit unless it provides a clear benefit to the State of GA. It's worth a try though. Good luck.

"T. c. carolina stretches into FL, but their laws are becoming strict also."

Ken,

You used to live in that area? But since you now have T. o. luteolas, you now live somewhere a ways west of there? Or are you just familiar with Terrapene all over the country?

I would need them for a scientific experiment, and they could be brought back to GA or Florida when over. I would be doing it under a professor at a university, and he has PhD and is quite respected, I believe. Actually, I know Jim Harding pretty well now too, and, BTW, Jim said this fellow who I hope to be my advisor (they know eachother through MSU, and the potential advisor got his PhD there) good researcher. Would would a recommendation from Jim and/or this professor be "good enough", I wonder?

Bill

Yeah man, go for it. Like I said, it's worth a try. My experience with Natural Resource agencies is that you can never predict how they'll receive something. Contact as many people at the agency as you can, and make sure you document things very well.

I still live in the Southeast. I keep all of the subspecies of native US box turtle. I have buddies in GA.

I can say one thing...any agency that understands herp biology will not want the study turtles to be re-released. They'd be a loss. Keep that in mind.

Good Luck. I hope it works out for you.

"I can say one thing...any agency that understands herp biology will not want the study turtles to be re-released. They'd be a loss. Keep that in mind. "

Are you saying that if I do get turtles from a southern state, they will not want the turtles back anymore? If so, what am I to do with them?

Basically, I'm saying that once you take the turtles into captivity they cannot be released back into the wild. Any State wildlife agency should know that. One condition of permission granted will probably be that the turtles will not be released after the study, even if released in the exact same spot. This is a failsafe against introducing bacteria, viruses, or fungi, resulting from captivity, into the population.

You'll have to determine what is to be done with them after the study. It is very common to discover that turtles are euthanized after studies involving captivity. It's a shame, but many researchers don't want to contribute to the pet trade in any form...even adoption.

I suspected that's what you meant. But does this apply to turtles taken from near the place where the experiment occurs? When I read a paper doing research on northern ornates (in Wisconsin) they took turtles from the field, used them in the experiement, and then put them back in the field.

I keep reading research articles, and it's hard for me to read some of them.... the most recent difficult one was stimulating red-eared sliders and ornates to high activity levels, then quickly freezing them (I assume the meant the freezing is also the act that kills them) in liquid nitrogen, then later put in a blender, with tiny bits of bone and shell remaining -- sad to me.

Wow, I'm really suprised that the WI study did that...especially with the fragility of that State's populations. I don't think that it's necessarily moving them to a different spot, but the risks that confinement brings. Much of the reasoning is based on that "infamous" incident with the California Desert tortoises. Although, I've heard from some reputable sources that they don't actually know why the tortoises all came down with infections and that they just theorized it was a released captive...I wouldn't know the truth either way. I've heard it cited many times, but never actually saw the evidence laid out.

I don't know how hard it will be got get them here in MI, either.... They are common in SOME areas here in MI - as I mentioned before, a friend of mine who is a sherriff's deputy sees them fairly frequently in the northern part of the county in which I live (Kent County). And apparently Jim Harding studies a good, big, dense population a ways south of here (Berrien County), where he has a continuing catch-mark-recapture study going on.

I'm from Georgia and you may want to focus on getting your turtles from South Carolina where the laws are almost non-existant compared to Georgia. I got into turtle rescue because they took road found turtles to the pound and put them to sleep. The laws are very strict and in some respect very stupid. You can get in trouble just touching a turtle if its considered molesting.

Also the southern part of South Carolina is only 100 miles from Florida, T c carolina's southern most range.

Best of luck

n/p

Just in case anyone is curious of which species and subspecies grow where in the U.S. (and Mexico), take a look at the map figures at this address:

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/midorcas/research/Contribute/box turtle/boxinfo.htm

Actually, I might be able to use captives, as long as the captives descend from what were once natives to the area. I suppose it would be hard to verify that.

One study with Terrapne ornata ornata just said of the source - the study was done in Kansas, but of the source they just said that they "were provided by Robert K. Beatson". That says nothing of whether those ornates were descendants of turtles that once lived in that area as wild animals. Another study used wild ornates caught near Madison, WI. And the other study, in Oklahoma, used T. c. triunguis and T. o. ornata turtles from the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation that had been confiscated from individuals that were going to use them in the illegal pet trade.

But that last study I mention.... I worded the scientific names differently than the actual research article did. They just said "Terrapene carolina" and "Terrapene ornata", not mentioning what subspecies they were. But, knowing the range of turtles, I added the other words so that the subspecies was named in the sci name.

HERE'S MY BIG QUESTION:

Do different subspecies of T. carolina have differnet thermal behaviors, from what you folks have seen? I think I remember reading in this forum that Florida boxies - and maybe Gulf Coast boxies - leave the leaf pile from hibernation before easterns and maybe three-toeds. Is my memory correct?

So.... who knows?

In my experience...yes. Of course, you'd have to factor in the keeping of an individual outside of its native range. Who knows how that can affect them?

Nearly all of my turtles are not native to the area where I live.

Ken,

If you have different subspecies in the same mulch pile.... Which ones come out of hibernation earliest? latest?

Part of what I want to study is the effect of different native climate regines on the same species. T. o. ornata with one paper was shown to have thermal preferences several degrees below the their conspecifics in Kansas.

Bill

All of mine are separated by subspecies. It wouldn't be truly accurate to determine. Plus, I would think that keeping them out of their natural range would skew their behavior a bit.