Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here for Dragon Serpents
Click for ZooMed
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

Paradigm Boa Genetics Part II .....long

BASICALLYBOAS Jul 09, 2007 04:10 AM

Last year we had written and perhaps optimistically hoped that the Paradigm Boa mutation would be a mutation that might be inheritable in the first generation of an unrelated breeding. This being that the Sharp and Caramel traits might be on separate genes resulting in the new Paradigm Boas. However, as speculated by several people including Paul Hollander, these two separate and different mutations are on the exact same locus or location on the genetic chain. This year we successfully bred a Paradigm male to a Ghost female. The resulting litter reveals the truth for the first time. Now instead of speculating how it might work, we can all see exactly through infallible proof that those two separate genetic anomalies are in fact full partners in creating the Paradigm Boas at the exact same location. So far all generally accepted forms of "T-Positive" Boas are inherited in a simple recessive method. This is now known to be true of the Paradigm Boas as well. Apparently the Sharp Albino and the Sharon Moore Caramel together have altered the production of melanin to an extent less than a homozygous Sharp and more than a homozygous Caramel. The result is the Paradigm "T-Positive Albino" that is unique in the Boa Constrictor world.

This marks the first time this has been identified in Boa Constrictors. This type of mechanism or combination was unknown to us and had not been part of the genetic knowledge base for most Boa Constrictor enthusiasts, it certainly is now. Much discussion has occurred and the conventional wisdom has believed that this is exactly how it worked. We remained unconvinced until now in hopes that we would be seeing Paradigm Motleys, Paradigm Arabesques etc. at the first successful breeding of a Paradigm to any of the Dominant or Co-Dominant mutations. We will have to wait a while for the satisfaction of seeing those many additional mutations merged with the Paradigm Boas now. At the end of the day though, this makes the Paradigm project better in our opinion in that it gives the project greater strength in the fact it will not be reproduced so quickly. It will take a little longer now to make these additional color and pattern combination mutations.

Below we have the litter of Double-Hets and Triple-Hets. These babies are all het for Anerytheristic. Some are also Hypomelanistic. That is as far as we can identify exactly what we are looking at for certain. They are also each 50% possible het for Sharp Albino and 50% possible het for Sharon Moore Caramel Hypos/T-Positives. That is every single baby was given one half of the ingredients that now rest on that "Paradigm Gene" from Dad. Dad delivered one Sharp gene or one Sharon Moore Caramel gene to every baby in the litter, but never both. We just don't know which have which as there is no visual difference between them. These babies will make for some really interesting breeding projects in the future. The range of babies that will be ultimately achieved from breeding these Boas is mind boggling! A few for example would be Anerytheristic Caramels, Hypo and Super Hypo Caramels, Ghost Caramels, Anerytheristic Paradigm and even an Anerytheristic Paraglow! I am sure there are many more as these were the major ones to come to mind!

We believe this breeding also proves at least one more thing: As has been clarified on the forum thanks to Paul Hollander, the Sharon Moore Caramel Hypos are a form of "T-Positive" animals. Given the fact that we now know that the Sharp Albino trait and the Sharon Moore Caramel trait both rest upon the exact same locus, we believe we can say, with some level of certainty, that the Sharp Albinos in fact maybe "T-Positive" Albinos. The "greatest" or most complete form of "T-Positive" animals to be sure but in a more technical aspect there probably isn't really such thing as being "more" T-Positive than any other T-Positive animals. The supposed Boas either have their reduction of melanin altered by Tyrosinase or they don't. The differences are in how much melanin production remains.

After long discussions on the forum clarifying precisely what "Tyrosinase-Positive" means, it is clear that the Sharon Moore Caramel Hypo is actually one of the forms of "Tyrosinase Positive" Boas known to exist today. A lesser "grade" of T-Positive if you will, but T-Positive nonetheless. I guess you could define the Sharp Albinos as the most complete "T-Positive Albino" or the highest "grade" of T-Positive. This coalition of compatibility is undeniable now that it has been circumstantiated. This Paradigm dynamic duo, despite the fact that the two are represented with dramatically different visual expressions, will bring us some very unique color and pattern mutations beyond our comprehension. The very first of these beauties is the Paraglow. With the introduction of the "Paraglow Boa", we have just scratched the tip of the iceberg with where this project can go! We look forward to proceeding into the future knowing exactly how the Paradigm trait is now inherited.

We would like to say thanks to everyone for their continuing positive remarks, e-mails and praise for these wonderful Boas we are very lucky to be working with. We would also like to thank Jeff Ronne for his help with both this year’s and last year’s introduction and explanation of the Paradigm Boa. His assistance has been greatly appreciated.

If you got all the way through this, thanks for reading!

-----
BASICALLYBOAS.com
'Specializing in True RedTails & Designer Boa Morphs'

ParadigmBoa.com
The most exciting thing to happen to Boa Constrictor Morphs!
Email Us!

Replies (18)

chris nicholas Jul 09, 2007 05:25 AM

Chris

kirby Jul 09, 2007 06:59 AM

The result certainly supports that the genetic mutations are at least very close so they have an overlapping effect. I haven't seen the caramels that you used to breed but imagine there would be some variation in their appearance. Have you found that different caramels make different looking Paradigms?

You have done a very good job with this in depth project in both the production of the animals and the way that you have presented the information. The introduction of the Paradigm and the genetic issues it has raised have been very beneficial to the boa community. With the animals you have already produced you are certainly well positioned to be the lead producer of the Paradigm morphs for years to come. I look forward to seeing how thw Paradigm appears in different combination morphs.

Bill Kirby

giantkeeper Jul 09, 2007 07:22 AM

you and Steph are at the reigns of this project! I don't need to get in to specifics regarding that statement here, but super congrats bro!
-----
Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

ajfreptiles Jul 09, 2007 07:37 AM

I am very excited to see it went this route!!!!

The Paradigm project will be a long time in the fore-front because of this!!!!

This is fantastic news!!!!!!!!

Great Job Mike!!!

Andy Federico
-----

vcaruso15 Jul 09, 2007 08:05 AM

what happens when you breed other lines of "T positive" to a Sharp. That will become a litmus test to prove if you actually have a T Positive or a hypomelanistic animal I suppose.

That is a very interesting litter when you breed any of those babies to a Paradigm you will produce Paradigms. That will also prove them out as to what they are het for.

Breeding those offspring to each other would be very interesting as well it would be a real crap shoot. You could get either Sharps, Caramels or Paradigms, but you could never get more than one in the same litter.

Congrats on an awesome litter and Thank you for taking the time to prove this all genetically and presenting it to us in such a professional manner.

PGoss Jul 09, 2007 08:40 AM

First, congrats on all your work and those awesome boas that have made us scratch our heads and look at genetics differently. The Paradigm was great to expand our knowledge and help us see what other snake people allready knew (silly colubrids). So it appears the same locus theory stands. As was speculated by some of us, the results for breedings should play out as:

Sharp X Caramel =
100% Paradigm

Paradigm X Sharp =
50% Sharp
50% Paradigm

Paradigm X Caramel =
50% Paradigm and
50% Caramel

Paradigm x het Sharp=
25% Sharp
25% het Sharp
25% Paradigm
25% het Caramel

Paradigm X het Caramel=
25% Carmel
25% het Caramel
25% Paradigm
25% het Sharp

Het Sharp X Het Caramel=
25% Paradigm
25% het Sharp
25% het Caramel
25% wild type

Paradigm X Paradigm=
25% Sharps
25% Caramel
50% Paradigms

Sharp X het Caramel=
50% Paradigm
50% het Sharp

Caramel X het Sharp=
50% Paradigm
50% het Caramel

Paradigm X wild type=
50% het Sharp
50% het Caramel

What I find most interesting about this morph is that you produce more Paradigms from a Sharp X Caramel breeding than from a Paradigm X Paradigm breeding.

Here is the math for a Paradigm x Paradigm:
Dad can pass Sharp (a) or Caramel (b).
Mom can pass Sharp (a) or Caramel (b).

Your outcomes:
25% aa (Sharp albino)
25% bb (Caramel)
50% ab (Paradigms)

Now, in a Sharp x Caramel breeding:
Dad can pass Sharp (a) or (a).
Mom can pass Caramel (b) or (b).

Your outcomes:
100% Paradigm (ab)

Congrats again and thanks for sharing so much information.
-----
Phil Goss
www.gossreptiles.com

info@gossreptiles.com

Paul Hollander Jul 09, 2007 10:36 AM

Congratulations on the litter!

>However, as speculated by several people including Paul Hollander, these two separate and different mutations are on the exact same locus or location on the genetic chain. This year we successfully bred a Paradigm male to a Ghost female. The resulting litter reveals the truth for the first time.

I'd call it another piece of evidence rather than proof positive. I am waiting for paradigm x paradigm matings.

>We believe this breeding also proves at least one more thing: As has been clarified on the forum thanks to Paul Hollander, the Sharon Moore Caramel Hypos are a form of "T-Positive" animals.

Which doesn't mean more than all of them are lighter than normal.

>Given the fact that we now know that the Sharp Albino trait and the Sharon Moore Caramel trait both rest upon the exact same locus, we believe we can say, with some level of certainty, that the Sharp Albinos in fact maybe "T-Positive" Albinos. The "greatest" or most complete form of "T-Positive" animals to be sure but in a more technical aspect there probably isn't really such thing as being "more" T-Positive than any other T-Positive animals. The supposed Boas either have their reduction of melanin altered by Tyrosinase or they don't. The differences are in how much melanin production remains.

I'm sorry. We absolutely can NOT claim that Sharp albinos are T-positive.

In the corn snake, amelanistic has been tested T-negative albino. Mating an amelanistic to an ultra, which is lighter than normal but has some melanin, produces babies with less melanin pigment than an ultra but more than an amelanistic.

In the black rat snake snake, there is an albino that has been tested T-positive albino. Mating one of these albinos to a xanthic, which is lighter than normal but has some melanin, produces babies with less melanin pigment than a xanthic but more than a T-positive albino. See Bern Bectel's paper in one of the 1985 issues of the Journal of Heredity.

We have no clue as to whether paradigm follows the corn snake or the black rat snake pattern. The only way to tell whether the Sharp and Kahl albinos are T-positive or T-negative is by a test. No tests have been done yet.

The differences among T-positive albino boas lie in how much melanin production occurs and which defective enzyme causes the reduction. Some T-positive mice have defective tyrosinase that can make some melanin. Other T-positive mice have normal tyrosinase. Defective enzymes totally unrelated to tyrosinase cause the reduction or absence of their melanin.

Paul Hollander

boaphile Jul 09, 2007 11:06 AM

Whether the Sharps are "T-Positive" or not I guess is a question for a chemist after doing the test. It is interesting to now know that they both appear to be at the same location. This after a breeding with a significant number of babies, none of which are Paradigm Boas. This is a situation that we did not know to be possible before it was suggested some time after the initial Paradigm announcement last year. It still seems weird to me that you apparently get a blending of those two distinct mutations and that the presence of the one simply doesn't allow the other to express itself or cancel each other out for that matter. The more I learn, the less I know...
-----
Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

jerseyserpents Jul 09, 2007 03:07 PM

I think the million dollar quote is "THE MORE I LEARN THE LESS I KNOW"
I second that!
-----
1.0 Poss super PC Salmon 05 (Rich Ihle)
0.1 Dubay Pastel 04 (Clay English)
1.0 Sharp Albino 05 (Mike Wilbanks)
0.1 Normal BCI 04 (????)

shot Jul 09, 2007 12:55 PM

How much does the test cost?

Marcus Williams

Exotics by Nature Jul 09, 2007 11:40 AM

I agree with Paul Hollander's post completely. I had a MUCH BIGGER post than this one nearly completed when Paul's post appeared and decided that there would be no reason to repeat what was written very clearly.

I just want to start this post off with a statement of my intentions. I happen to be a reptile breeder with a VERY open mind not to say that others are not open-minded. Having said that there have been many times that I've "thrown in the towel" and answered a question with the rare words... "I don't know"

Having a hypothesis is a wonderful part of the scientific method. I think many people in this world who are not naturally curious can often confuse the hypothesis with the conclusion. For about 10 years I have tried to learn the complexities of melanin and other pigments and how vastly variable it has been in Squamata. I have made many hypothesese and have drawn only one conclusion... I DON'T KNOW.

Now... I would like to make a hypothesis of my own...

I beleive that if the "Paradigm" mutation is a form of albinism (specifically that melanin is reduced or tyrosinase is present to alter it) then when bred together, a pair of "Paradigms" that are 100% Het. Sharp Albinos will produce a mutation that is homozygous for Sharp Albino also carrying the "Paradigm" trait but appears to be a typical Sharp Albino. Basically I'm saying that the Sharp Albino "Paradigm" may appear to be a regular Sharp Albino.

Another thought... albinism can be defined by several common terms that are thrown around in our industry everyday. They are...

Albino
Amelanistic
Anerythristic
Axanthic
Hypomelanistic
Tyrosinase Positive Albino

Our industry has already accepted the name "Boawoman Caramel Hypo" why not call these "Paradigm" Hypos. After all, they are exhibiting a reduction in black. By definition you could even refer to a Sharp or Kahl strain Albino as Hypomelanistic but you couldn't refer to a Salmon Hypo as an Amelanistic. Just when I'm on track and I think I got this darn melanin thing pegged... BAMMM another "Paradox" Amelanistic. I LOVE THAT NAME! The animal has NO melanin... its amelanistic but wait... it has little brownish black specks all over it.

So what's in a name? Paradigm has a nice ring to it. After all I am a big fan of the "he who makes it first, names it" rule in our industry. Look at it this way, had I had the first "Paradigm" perhaps I would have named it "Confusion Hypo" or wait... maybe the infamous Sean@EbN's "?"

Mike, I really love watching these things develop. I mean no offense to you or your project, after all I have a little "T-positive ?" project of my own. Hopefully you and some of the other people involved in this project will uncover a lot of interesting details over the next few years.

Jeff... you said it well... the more we learn the less we "know"

Bye!

-----
Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

PGoss Jul 09, 2007 12:58 PM

"I beleive that if the "Paradigm" mutation is a form of albinism (specifically that melanin is reduced or tyrosinase is present to alter it) then when bred together, a pair of "Paradigms" that are 100% Het. Sharp Albinos will produce a mutation that is homozygous for Sharp Albino also carrying the "Paradigm" trait but appears to be a typical Sharp Albino. Basically I'm saying that the Sharp Albino "Paradigm" may appear to be a regular Sharp Albino."

Another reason the Paradigm has caused a few headaches (for hillbillies such as myself). I don't believe a Paradigm 100% het Sharp can exist. If Sharp and Caramel share the locus, a Paradigm can only pass on one of these traits. So in a manner of speaking, a Paradigm is a 50% het for each trait. All offspring get one of the genes, but only one. They cannot get both genes from a Paradigm parent.

Also, there cannot be a Caramel het. Sharp or a Sharp het. Caramel. Any boa with both genes is a Paradigm.
-----
Phil Goss
www.gossreptiles.com

info@gossreptiles.com

Paul Hollander Jul 09, 2007 01:16 PM

>I beleive that if the "Paradigm" mutation is a form of albinism (specifically that melanin is reduced or tyrosinase is present to alter it) then when bred together, a pair of "Paradigms" that are 100% Het. Sharp Albinos will produce a mutation that is homozygous for Sharp Albino also carrying the "Paradigm" trait but appears to be a typical Sharp Albino. Basically I'm saying that the Sharp Albino "Paradigm" may appear to be a regular Sharp Albino.

The problem that I think I see here is that genes have to be considered as pairs. And instead of two choices as usual in boas so far, we have three choices (normal, Sharp albino, boawoman caramel) to put into each of the two slots in the pair.

A het Sharp albino has a pair of genes made up of a normal gene and a Sharp albino mutant gene. A het boawoman caramel has a pair of genes made up of a normal gene and a boawoman caramel mutant gene.

A paradigm boa has a pair of genes made up of a boawoman caramel mutant gene and a Sharp albino mutant gene. This is a boawoman caramel//Sharp albino gene pair, not a het Sharp albino gene pair.

A homozygous Sharp albino boa (AKA a Sharp albino boa) has a pair of genes made up of two Sharp albino mutant genes. A homozygous boawoman caramel boa (AKA a boawoman caramel boa) has a pair of genes made up of two boawoman caramel mutant genes.

Note that we are dealing with only one pair of genes in every case so far.

"... homozygous for Sharp Albino also carrying the "Paradigm" trait ..." sounds to me like having a pair of Sharp albino mutant genes and then having a Sharp albino mutant gene paired with a boawoman caramel mutant gene in addition. That makes two pairs of genes, which is not kosher.

When animals make sperm and eggs, each sperm or egg has one gene from each gene pair in the normal cell. Take some scraps of paper. On one scrap write "Sharp albino", and on a second scrap write "boawoman caramel". This is the gene pair that makes a boa a paradigm. Repeat on two more scraps of paper. Now you have a gene pair for a male paradigm boa and a female paradigm boa. Pick one scrap from each pair. This is equivalent to a sperm from a paradigm boa fertilizing an egg from another paradigm boa. How many different combinations of genes can you get?

I get three combinations:
1. Two Sharp albino mutant genes
2. Two boawoman caramel mutant genes
3. One Sharp albino and one boawoman caramel mutant gene.

The pair with two Sharp albino mutant genes makes the snake a Sharp albino boa. There is no boawoman hypo mutant gene, so it cannot be a paradigm, too.

Paul Hollander

Exotics by Nature Jul 10, 2007 10:59 AM

Since this stuff gets pretty deep and I have always had a hard time finding my way through it I have a question that you can probably answer...

Does a gene modifer have to be on the same loci as the gene that it modifies? My hunch had to do with a gene modifier but I don't have the knowledge to fully explain this idea.

You made very valid points and I agree with them completely. All that is assuming that the cause of this mutation lies on one locus only.

Thanks,

-----
Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Paul Hollander Jul 10, 2007 04:30 PM

>Since this stuff gets pretty deep and I have always had a hard time finding my way through it I have a question that you can probably answer...

I'm usually willing to discuss genetics questions. Sometimes I can answer them, and sometimes I can't.

Actually, anyone who can understand how flipping two coins can produce four possible outcomes (2 heads, 2 tails, head & tails, tails & head) can understand genetics. It just has to be worked up to, like swimming. Some of these discussions are like getting shoved into the deep end of the pool.

>Does a gene modifer have to be on the same loci as the gene that it modifies? My hunch had to do with a gene modifier but I don't have the knowledge to fully explain this idea.

I was taught that a modifier gene is a mutant gene which has an effect that is invisible in an otherwise normal animal. The modifier changes the physical effect caused by another mutant gene.

Many years ago a man named Castle took a stock of hooded rats. Hooded is a recessive mutant gene. Hooded rats have pigment on the head, shoulders, and along the spine while the rest of the rat is pigmentless (white). Castle divided the rat stock and over generations selected the most pigmented in one stock and the least pigmented in the other stock. Eventually he had two stocks. One stock was pigmented over the whole body except a bit on the belly. The second stock was white except for spots on the head. When the two stocks were mated together, the babies were hooded like the original stock. Castle's explanation was that modifier genes had affected the expression of the hooded mutant gene.

All of those rats had a pair of hooded genes at the hooded locus (Locus singular, loci plural. Latin.) The modifier genes had to be at other loci, probably several other loci.

>You made very valid points and I agree with them completely. All that is assuming that the cause of this mutation lies on one locus only.

The breeding results so far can be explained using one locus. But there have only been three or four matings with an unknown (by me) number of babies. More data may require changing the explanation. We'll have to wait and see.

Paul Hollander

michaelburton Jul 10, 2007 12:32 AM

Just one question. Why so personal? Clearly, you have something against Mike. I personally don't understand everything being said here. The more I learn, the less I know. I just happen to be fascinated by amazing looking boas. Whether everything Mike said is 100% correct or not, he still has one amazing project on his hands with tons of potencial. I've always wanted to hear more from you Sean, being that you are Celia's(who I love) husband. But after that, I'm not to sure. By the way, it is a proven morph so you don't have to put Paradigm in quotations.
Michael Burton

obz Jul 10, 2007 09:14 AM

I don't know, I read the post. It doesn't seem personal to me, just objective. There is a difference.
-----
recycle your pets

Exotics by Nature Jul 10, 2007 12:25 PM

That post was meant to be an objective arguement of what someone else thinks. I'm not sure why you think "Clearly, you have something against Mike", perhaps someone else planted that seed with you. I assure you that post was not intended to be Anti-Mike but it was personal! VERY PERSONAL and it was personal about me... what I think and what my OPINION was. I never refered to an absolute, unwaivering fact.

"I've always wanted to hear more from you Sean, being that you are Celia's(who I love) husband. But after that, I'm not to sure."

I really wish you didn't feel this way. Not much more I can say about that.

"By the way, it is a proven morph so you don't have to put Paradigm in quotations."

Michael, I put Paradigm in quotes because it is the mutation in question. Had I doubted the validity of the morph I would have posted a question mark after it. However, I did say that if this project was mine I would be so stumped with it in the beginning that I probably would have called it a "?". I would just really like to see more breeding trials with this morph.

-----
Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

Site Tools