Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Finally hit a 1/16 snake. Parents are triple het for axanthic, albino, and whitesided. Got the whitesided albino, which I guess is a snow? Correct me if I am wrong please..

Came from her double clutch of six good eggs.

Enjoy!

now that's a nice bull!

Hi

The term "Snow" was initially coined by cornsnake afficionados to animals that were amelanistic and anerythristic. The same name was applied to amelanistic/anerythristic Honduran milksnakes. It is also used by brooksi/floridana keepers to describe animals that are amelanistic and axanthic. Now if you're talking about Pituophis, esp. with bullsnakes, "Snow" is commonly used to describe animals that show the amelanism and the white-sided gene. It was "incorrectly" used since the axanthic gene was not yet available. You're correct on that what you have is a "Snow" (amel white-sided in bullsnake standards) but he/she is NOT a triple homozygous animal which would show amel, axanthic, and WS genes that your adults carry. You have approx. 1.6% chance of hitting according to genetic wizard which is very tough odds. The 1/16 (6.25%) odd can only be applied to animals that are double heterozygous and not triple heterozygous.

There is a problem if one has an amelanistic and axanthic animal. It would be considered as a "Snow" according to the other colubrid nomenclature but not in bullsnake nomenclature. Confusing isn't it? I'm not sure what to call this type of animal since the term "Snow" is already coined to the amelanistic and WS combo. This is a problem I have since I just hatched an amelanistic axanthic from a quadruple heterozygous (speckled, amelanistic, white-sided, and axanthic) pair also.

Hope it explains thing a bit. My apologies if I caused more confusion, hehe.

Genetic Wizard

-----
Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

To answer the original question, a SNOW bull IS an albino white-sided by common acceptance in the hobbyist community.

Ahhhh, but a name only means what we give it, right? Remember that white-sided was NOT the original name for that mutation - it was anerythristic. TRUE snows is whatever people THINK of as a snow. Snow cal-Kings are albino melanistic ones - NOT aners or axanthics.

The term "true snow" is going to cause problems, too. For example, Ballam has been producing these for a while from the Trumbower albino and the Ballam axanthic. If that is called a true snow, then what do you call the same thing except when the Amarillo line of albinism is used? What about when either line of albinism is combined with the Miami County line of axanthism? That there is 4 possible combinations, and which one should be called the "true" one? Confusing, eh? (The axanthic lines may be allelic, but the albino lines are NOT.) Same thing for the "true ghost."

I used ot use those terms until I realized how silly it is. Changing names can ONLY lead to confusion, and you will never see albino WS bulls stopped being called snows. Blizzard is already taken, so these guys deserve a NEW name based on adult colorations.

There are about 20 ways to produce a "true snow" in cornsnakes, but only the first one to get that name is the actually snakes truly called a snow, right? ...and it was called that because it was white (like a snow bull) and not because of the genetics......

Again, I used to use that term, but I hate to think about the confusion I could have added to. Albino axanthics can't be called snows, too, though.

KJ
-----
KJUN Snakehaven

Dang it! Now I'm the one confused, LOL....
-----
Jonel M. Lopez

www.spsnakes.com

Thanks! Great response, although I am not sure I am smart enough to understand it all - need a Phd. in genetics I think...hehehe

Ok, from what I gather, snows are usually albino/axanthics or albino anery's.

In bulls, what is considered a blizzard?

And if my adults are triple het, why isn't hitting two of them still a 1/16 chance?

Thanks!

WJ

>>Ok, from what I gather, snows are usually albino/axanthics or albino anery's.

....yes, but NOT always. It depends on the type of snake.

>>In bulls, what is considered a blizzard?

I've seen a few things called a blizzard, but "albino whites-sided speckleds axanthics" are the most common ones called blizzards, I'd venture to guess. Actually, anything with red eyes that has little yellow from the speckled line has probably been called blizzard by someone.... More confusion, eh?

>>And if my adults are triple het, why isn't hitting two of them still a 1/16 chance?

Hitting 2 of them is still 1/16, but 25% of those should have the third gene, too..... so really you only have a 3/64 chance of producing an animal that only shows any SPECIFIC two of those traits.

I think Jonel misunderstood your question. I did the first time I read it!
KJ
-----
KJUN Snakehaven

Man, hitting 4 recessive's? What are the odds for that?

>>Man, hitting 4 recessive's? What are the odds for that?

1/256 if you start with quad het to quad het, but that isn't how you do it usually (not with snakes that don't lay a bunch of eggs, anyway). Typically, you do it step by step.

FOR EXAMPLE: Get an albino white-sided and breed that to an albino speckled to produce albinos that are double het. 1/16 of the babies' babies will be albino white-sided speckleds. Meanwhile do the same thing with axanthic bred to speckled to albino speckled to get all speckleds. Bred those together to get 1/16 albino axanthic speckleds. Breed those f2 groups together to get albino speckleds double het for WS and axanthic. 1/16 of those babies will be the quad homozygous. See? Takes more generations, but that is the USUAL way to do it. The alternative is to do the quad het thing and keep LOTS of the female babies that show some of the traits and are possible hets for the others to increase the number of eggs you get (with a better ratio) but THAT way deals with lots of possible hets. I don't personally LIKE that way as much.

The best I've done is a 1/128 chance but that was in cornsnakes! That jackpot was a girl, and you usually want a male multi-homozygous like that. I actually wanted a girl this time. Cool, eh?
KJ
-----
KJUN Snakehaven

here is what I would call a blizzard

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1341591,1341591
-----
BULLSANKES
0.1 stillwater. Ok hypo 25% red
1.0 axanthic
1.0 red
0.1 real dark normal possible KANK
0.1 ghost
0.1 albino speck.

>>here is what I would call a blizzard

Yep. Since Ivory is "just" a hypo white-sided (selectively bred for reduced patterned), those blizzards are genetically the same thing I described above. ......and since those animals are from Ballam's stock, they basically ARE thesame type of blizzard.

Good call,
KJ
-----
KJUN Snakehaven